30 replies to this topic

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I'm very confused why no one wants to use heat like it should be.

I've pointed out a number of times that the simplest and quickest way to stop the super-range&damage-Clan-alphastrike is just to make them blow up from over heat when they use it. I don't know what's wrong with this solution and I'm baffled by the lack of response when I put forward this idea.

No one really says it's a bad idea, but no one seems to agree with it, either. There's just silence about it.

Is it such a frightening idea that the alpha-strike might not be viable?

As far as I understand, the alpha should only be used as a last ditch effort to kill them before they kill you anyway.

We don't need fancy, confusing, arbitrary and illogical solutions. We just need one: laser vomit alpha = suicide.

All the concept nerfs to laser range (mostly aimed at Clans) detract from the primary aspect of Clan flavor: range and accuracy.

It should be at the expense of heat. Hell, even CAC/CUAC should run hot for Clans (burst fire uses smaller slugs which heat up the barrel more; additionally, smaller slugs means smaller barrel, accounting for its lighter weight, too).

That gives Clans a use for that extra tonnage they save: heatsinks! O.o Imagine that!

We don't need arbitrary mechanics that affect 1 techline or 1 weapon size more than another.

We need weapons in each techline to BALANCE INTERNALLY according to a normalized ratio ruleset that affects both techlines in the same way.

Furthermore, to do this we cannot be afraid to deviate from TT values! This isn't TT!

So CMPL: 8 damage? No! 6, just like IS. But wait, range 330m? Yes! Heat? Maintain at 6. Duration? Normalize to IS.

Numbers may need to be tweaked according to the math needed to produce derivative stats. But you get the idea.

Additionally, we need to change heat cap so that it has 2 thresholds: 1 to cause shutdown and 1 to cause BOOM!

Then making cooling efficiency better so that chain firing doesn't build up heat so fast. These rules to apply to both Clans and IS equally.

[Livewyr]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 22 October 2015 - 02:52 AM, said:

We don't need fancy, confusing, arbitrary and illogical solutions. We just need one: laser vomit alpha = suicide.

If you don't see it...


Heat penalties (increasing dysfunction for higher heat thresholds) has been discussed for a long time. The Alpha Strike is a very Battletech thing, it should not be instant death, but excessive heat should result in some difficulties.

[sycocys]

What's the difference between an alpha strike and macro'd chain fire?

That's what people do already to avoid ghost heat by .01 second.

[Greyhart]

the macro chain fire thing is clearly a reason to work out a proper solution to the alpha problem.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@Livewyr:

You're right, not every alpha should cause instant death. I put into overstatement to make a point.

I really mean to say that we need a threshold where it becomes instant death instead of just shutdown with limited damage.

@sycosys:
There's not much, but... maybe enough? But, yeah, the macro thing sucks, too.

Still, my above solution for heat thresholds still applies. Even with increased cooling efficiency, I bet a lot of macro-fires reach the proposed "suicide threshold".

[Hotthedd]

Livewyr, on 22 October 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

The Alpha Strike is a very Battletech thing.

Not really, at least not the way it is in MW:O.
In lore the Alpha Strike was a last resort.
In TT an Alpha Strike was merely firing all of your weapons over 10 seconds.

In neither case was precision expected.

[Widowmaker1981]

Ive said this before and ill say it again.

If you force lasers to chainfire (and thus sit there staring at the target), who would use them over stacked ballistics that do more dps, cause no heat and shake the everliving crap out of your target? No one with a brain, thats who.

Lasers HAVE to be able to shoot and scoot (alpha) or they are strictly inferior to DPS ballistics, as opposed to each having their place. The specific heat values etc can obviously be tweaked for balance, but forcing chainfire means deleting lasers (and the mechs that rely on them to exist - lights, energy boat mediums/heavies).

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 October 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 October 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ive said this before and ill say it again.

If you force lasers to chainfire (and thus sit there staring at the target), who would use them over stacked ballistics that do more dps, cause no heat and shake the everliving crap out of your target? No one with a brain, thats who.

Lasers HAVE to be able to shoot and scoot (alpha) or they are strictly inferior to DPS ballistics, as opposed to each having their place. The specific heat values etc can obviously be tweaked for balance, but forcing chainfire means deleting lasers (and the mechs that rely on them to exist - lights, energy boat mediums/heavies).

Ballistics should be incentivized to chain fire as well (i.e. a cone of fire for more than 1 weapon being fired simultaneously). Personally I would prefer it if ACs were burst fire as well, but the QQ would short out PGI's servers.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@Widowmaker:

I have to disagree with you on this point. There is no reason why chain firing lasers is not viable. I do it all the time with great success.

I don't do it because I can't abide the "all eggs in one basket" approach (and I can't help wanting to fire as soon as the weapon is ready, too)!

But it actually can work.

Also, I'm not explicitly forcing chain fire so much as preventing alpha fire. Firing groups in a controlled method would still work, due to faster heat dissipation.

It just means that it takes that much more time and -exposure- to dole out the same amount of damage and reduces the likelihood of it all hitting the same place!

[PeeWrinkle]

I have a slightly different thought on this, which is I think the entire heat system is borked. I am not saying I know how to fix it, but there has to be a better way.

Being a BattleTech game Alpha Strikes should be a key component. Chain firing is also very useful as well. Both need to be in the game. And as in TT there is the chance you will damage internal components or destroy yourself if you run too hot. So that does not seem incorrect to me.

Although enhancing the negative effect of significantly overheating could be an option. Repeatedly over heating and by significant amounts doesn't seem to have a lasting effect unless you destroy yourself. In TT if you get to hot and destroy or damage for example a leg actuator you slow down for the remainder of that match. Not instant death, but very risky all the same. And it would not be just a minor overheat that would cause some type of internal crit roll, it would have to be significant amount past the heat threshold. But if you were going to loose and arm, weapon, be slowed down I bet that would effect the heat management. Right now its either I die from and engine or ammo explosion if I double my heat capacity, which is not very risky. Also overheating several times in a short amount of time should have negative effects on the mechs performance.

Instead we have Ghost Heat and Quirks. Neither of which I like very much. Then you throw into the mix that the Clan Tech, which is superior and more advanced, generates more Ghost Heat than IS mechs in many cases and it is just maddening. Yes there needs to be game balance, but how can you truly balance two different sets of technology when one is supposed to be clearly superior? The answer is not Quirks in my opinion.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. I took a 65 Ton IS and Clan Chassis and filled them with 6 MLs and DHS. And the IS Chassis with less DHS was slightly more heat efficient. That just doesn't seem quite right to me.
IS TDR
CLAN HBR
Yes there are other differences such as Clan ERML having a longer range and doing more damage, but require 10 more DHS to dissipate what should be roughly the same heat is ridiculous.

Now I am starting to get into the entire heat discussion instead of just saying what I meant to and that is Alpha Strikes should not cause instant death.

While I am here, did you guys see the notes on the Public Test this round? And if you did is it really possible that IS Single Heat Sinks could be better at managing heat than Clan Double Heat Sinks? Please tell me I read that wrong.
Just in case you didn't see it, here it is:
Inner Sphere Single Heat Sinks
• Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.2 (up from 1.1 for previous PTS value).
• Engine-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.2 (up from 1.1 for previous PTS value).

Clan Double Heat Sinks
• Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink heat capacity decreased to 1.1 (down from 1.2 for previous PTS value)

I realize that cooling rate is cooling efficiency and capacity is the total amount of heat before over heating. But I can't wrap my head around the fact the a Clan DHS in the chassis is really a Single Heat Sink.

[Black Ivan]

Yes, IS single heat sinks are now better than Clan DHS

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I'm not sure what the deal is with Clan vs. IS Heatsinks. So, I'm not going to speak to that.

@PeeWrinkle:

But, your Thunderbolt Hallbringer comparison is not accurate.

Note how much more firepower the HBR brings. On top of that is range. Thus, the heat absolutely should NOT be roughly the same.

Four (4) CERMLs is closer in firepower to the 5 ISMLs you have on the TDR. When you match it this way the HBR only needs to bring 6 Clan Double Heatsinks (comparable to the TDR).

But the range is still much more for the HBR, giving it more effective shots while distance is closing. Combined with the other aspects of Clantech, it is clearly the superior 'Mech.

[Greyhart]

On the issue that laser should be shoot and scoot otherwise people will just take ballistics.

Ballistics are heavier and have a max damage cap known as ammo.

Lasers are light and have no damage cap. Making lasers focussed more on damage over time and ballistics as a burst damage weapon is the way to go IMO.

further if ballistics (which have to lead the target) become a major issue then the large damage ones should be balanced by either reduced damage or having a percentage of the damage spread to other components

[Widowmaker1981]

Greyhart, on 10 November 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

On the issue that laser should be shoot and scoot otherwise people will just take ballistics.

Ballistics are heavier and have a max damage cap known as ammo.

Lasers are light and have no damage cap. Making lasers focussed more on damage over time and ballistics as a burst damage weapon is the way to go IMO.

further if ballistics (which have to lead the target) become a major issue then the large damage ones should be balanced by either reduced damage or having a percentage of the damage spread to other components

Except its not hard to make ballistic builds with enough ammo that its utterly non problematic. My UAC Mauler has enough ammo to hit 1650 dmg if i hit with everything, and thats not counting crits or arty, and it really doesnt make sacrifices to have that much - runs a 300 STD engine and all important sections are fully armoured.

How is a laser based assault mech going to fight that, if it is forced to try to dps war with it? Lower DPS, much lower sustained DPS, no screen shake vs lots of screenshake. What will actually happen is the laser based mech will LOSE HORRIBLY.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 12 November 2015 - 02:21 AM.

[Greyhart]

well with ballistics you can: reduce the amount of ammo per ton, longer cooldown times, slower travel times, have damage spread rather than one point and adjust ay screen shake.

Further when firing ballistics you are risking missing and loosing that potential damage and wasting the weight.

With lasers there is little loss if the shot doesn't hit because there is no ammo, further there is no travel time.

So ballistics have more options to balance than lasers. the only balancing factors on lasers are cool down, burn time and damage reduction.

Further in your scenario the assault mech may tank your 1650 damage but then you've no damage to deal to anyone else on your team, effectively taking you out of the game too. If you miss and use all your ammo he can continue to go at you forever as he has no ammo limit. Also a laser mech perhaps in those circumstances should not trying to out DPS a ballistics mech but should be trying to make a long engagement causing the ballistic mech to waste ammo, he can take pot shots but it doesn't matter he hits or not as long as he can make you use the ammo and cause you to miss.

But in short in a short face to face conflict the ballistic mech would likely win. In a long fight the laser mech would win. That is the balance. although admittedly it would mean a complete change in mind set by people that laser boat.

[Wildstreak]

The main reason the Alpha Strike works so differently here is heat being handled differently.
Yes, you could Alpha Strike in CBT but not to the damage levels of MWO and not without taking risks.
MWO since it was first made buffed the Alpha Strike by changing heat handling. Other buffs to certain Mechs resulted in the Super Mega Alpha Stiker, something not seen in CBT.

[Widowmaker1981]

Greyhart, on 12 November 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

well with ballistics you can: reduce the amount of ammo per ton, longer cooldown times, slower travel times, have damage spread rather than one point and adjust ay screen shake.

Further when firing ballistics you are risking missing and loosing that potential damage and wasting the weight.

With lasers there is little loss if the shot doesn't hit because there is no ammo, further there is no travel time.

So ballistics have more options to balance than lasers. the only balancing factors on lasers are cool down, burn time and damage reduction.

Further in your scenario the assault mech may tank your 1650 damage but then you've no damage to deal to anyone else on your team, effectively taking you out of the game too. If you miss and use all your ammo he can continue to go at you forever as he has no ammo limit. Also a laser mech perhaps in those circumstances should not trying to out DPS a ballistics mech but should be trying to make a long engagement causing the ballistic mech to waste ammo, he can take pot shots but it doesn't matter he hits or not as long as he can make you use the ammo and cause you to miss.

But in short in a short face to face conflict the ballistic mech would likely win. In a long fight the laser mech would win. That is the balance. although admittedly it would mean a complete change in mind set by people that laser boat.

Some people are not so terrible at the game that you can make them waste 11 tons of AC ammo without wrecking everything. 1650 is a LOT of damage. Ammo is quite literally not a limitation for some mechs (big ones not built by idiots).

Lasers / PPCs (and big ACs/Gauss) are alpha + hide, shoot + scoot weapons. Small Ballistics are DPS weapons. If you try to force lasers to compete DPS wise with the small ballistics (by reducing their max alpha to comparable ~20 point values, taking their alpha advantage away) they become strictly worse weapons, because their only advantage is higher alpha potential. Again, ammo at current values is NOT a limitation on correctly built ballistic mechs in our 12 v 12 current game. Hell, you even have to completely remake ballistic builds for comp games because its normally 8v8 so you need way less ammo.

[Lostdragon]

There are two issues that exacerbate each other: 1) You can fire a lot of weapons at once 2) they all hit the exatlct same spot every time.

Changing the way heat works can address problem 1, but will just shift the meta to whatever weapons can best be used to do massive damage to a single component. You have to address 1 and 2 simultaneously if you want to see real change, I don't think heat changes alone will ever be enough unless you do things like add heat to the GR.

[Greyhart]

The point being in a balanced game (of course no game is every perfectly balanced and one set of advantages will always be considered better than another) both would be reasonably options to take.

In the case of lasers vs ballistics you would want a position where in say a 10 second period they would both deal the same amount of damage say 30 points.

The lasers would do 3 points of damage a second and the ballistics would do 10 points and then need to cool down for 3.33 seconds and then do another 10 points and then cool down and then again.

at the moment we have lasers that can alpha strike for 60 damage wait 3 seconds and alpha again before retreating to cool off, whilst ballistics have to either do the same with limited ammo and/or keep face time with the enemy whilst also having to lead the target as well.

But yes heat is not the be all and end all. However it is a start and the simplest thing to implement in game

[DivineEvil]

Heavily nerf or remove the base heat capacity. Current base heat capacity is 21 DHS of capacity without dissipation, tonnage or space requirements. Buff heatsinks into viable form. My idea, 2.0 efficiency on DHS, 1.4 efficiency on SHS.

Done. All weapons has to be used carefully. Ghost heat is no longer needed. You want alpha-strike 8 Medium Lasers - You need 32 heat cap, or 16 DHS on 0 degree map, otherwise you'd overheat. 8 Clan ER-Medium Lasers? 48 heat cap, 24 DHS on 0 degree map. Heat cap is much lower, but dissipates much faster, promoting dynamic, continuous combat. Heatsinks now would determine all the heat management power of your mech, and each one would worth the 1t it takes.

60.0 heat capacity with only 2.0 dissipation, on a 10 mandatory DHS in 250 engine with Double-Basics, is just stupid and promotes alpha-strike domination over any skirmishing or brawling.

I think it's fourth thread where I have to state the same things now.