385 replies to this topic

[Vetal]

all weapons are designed to do damage. To DO damage means to kill as faster as you can. Make game into something which is damagin one mech during 10 mins is unappropriate.
Nobody has to adapt to you as like you don't have to adapt to somebody. any restriction is unfair. I don't like lasers, but I strongly against these new restrictions.. Ghostheat is the best boundaries as for me.I prefer ballistics. If someone has better hands and know how to use them - you don't ask to cut them off, do you? Learn to play, use mouse instead of joystick, play in TEAM not solo, even in pug game. That is the true way of balance.
If you don't know how to swim, you don't forbid that to everybody. You learn to do it. Here is the same.
Don't turn this Game into garbage pls. The same way World Of Tanks did and its copmpany lost more than 60% of all players. Do you want to finish MWO? I don't.

Edited by Vetal, 26 October 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[LightningStorm]

I wasn't in beta so im not quite sure what you mean by cone of fire but
I think every weapon should have their own targeting reticle or something like that according to their placement on the mech. While 3 medium lasers on one arm shooting an enemy component, 2 medium lasers on the other arm should shoot somewhere else which should not be too far from the original target (another component, another mech, or miss). Doing this way would force people to take more variety of weapons with them, so we won't see things like 4gauss direwhale,3ll+6ml/2erll+6erml mech, instead they will be armed for every situation like that direwhale might want to take an ssrm6 against light mech problems, a ppc for long ranged shot, a gauss for long ranged no heat shot, an uac 20 for close combat and few lasers for added damage.

[Vetal]

who will use laser boats then? if he can't kill anyone in 1-2mins?
Who will use lasers at all? what lights should do then? who will play them?
High alpha is not a problem. It MUST be high exactly because it is alpha. Read books.
The problem is only a "lol-solo" play, when everybody do nascar leaving heavies and assaults behind.

Edited by Vetal, 26 October 2015 - 07:03 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 October 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Your PPC example is actually silly, because of convergence. If you are aiming directly at a mech moving toward or away from you, or still then sure, the 3 LPPCs will hit the same spot, but because convergence is based on the distance of the object under the reticule at the time of firing, if you have to lead a laterally moving target then your PPCs will converge at that distance, and NOT at the mech you want to hit.. in other words the LPPCs wont converge fully if your target is not being a potato. Convergence is only an issue imo for lasers (because hitscan = no lead = full convergence every time), and even then its only really short duration lasers that you cant easily twist all over, and those also have short range.

If clan mechs are getting a full 1.15s burn onto one component, the problem is the target player being a potato and not torso twisting..

I really don't want to calculate it
But its seldom that the piper next to your cross hair show ∞ (infinity)

Mostly its the terrain behind your target. Depends on your position but in rare occasions its >100m
If this range is of concern for you to lead fire the difference between the point you aim and both points you shots will hit could be ignored.
Its no comparison to CB when you did aim for terrain 100m in front and snapped to a target in 500m distance the change was not instant -this was a concern.
And given my example with the 3 LPPCs, even in CB when mounting in the same place the convergence issue was almost not existend. (example could be the binocular ppc thunderbolt mount)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 October 2015 - 06:55 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

I still say you have a "locking mechanism" similar to the LRM-lock. That circle reticle for the arms, for example, just have it start as a larger circle: your shot will hit somewhere in that circle.

The longer you hold the circle on-target, the smaller it gets.

Beagle? It gets smaller faster.

Command Console? Faster.

Pinpoint unlocked? Faster.

And it wouldn't be effected by ECM. And it wouldn't take THAT long, say 2-3 seconds as a base. You could still snap-shot in a brawl, and you could conceivably snipe if your target holds still long enough, but you couldn't snap-shot a 70-point alpha across the map and one shot a running Locust...

Edited by Dawnstealer, 26 October 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Hotthedd]

VorpalAnvil, on 26 October 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

Man, this whole thread is nothing but a Tier 5 whine-and-cheese tasting. Terribads who want the game dumbed down to their level, not their skill level to improve because getting better is too hard for mommies special little snowflakes. In answer to your rhetorical question; a hearty yes...

Are you suggesting that hitting one component with multiple weapons in a single click takes more "skill" than hitting one component with multiple weapons with MULTIPLE clicks?

I would say the opposite is true. Being able to reliably deal damage to one spot from multiple weapons simultaneously dumbs this game down to arcade levels. It is not part of the Battletech universe.

[Hotthedd]

Vetal, on 26 October 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

High alpha is not a problem. It MUST be high exactly because it is alpha. Read books.

Alpha strikes can be high in potential damage, sure, but high damage alpha strikes hitting the same component on a 'mech IS a problem. Read the books, pinpoint alphas didn't exist in BattleTech lore, even hitting a target with TWO weapons fired simultaneously was INCREDIBLY rare.

[Vetal]

Weird. You should read the GDL trilogy. Their mechs shot opponents by multiple weapons to aim some component (flamethrower of vulcan, or phoenix's jumpjet). Damaging components was their often used tactics actually. So it is quite often.
It is a normal thing to shoot components. It is an essential part of game and the Universe. Or you don't know how to place things for better avoiding of internal component's damage? PGI has added on PTS laser restrictions concerning targeting.
You're inventing a bycicle. Did you play it? Did you like it?
BTW, mech uses rangefinder which you see on the HUD. The same technology uses for dynamic targeting(I mean focus on target). So implementing that cone is technical nonsense for 31st century because what you propose is a consequences of technology which was used on guns during the second world war.
And mechs use focus lenses for lasers, it was perfectly described in books.
Nonsense.

Edited by Vetal, 26 October 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Hotthedd]

I realize that English is not your native language (although it is far better than my Russian), but I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Of course you can target components. One-clicking multiple shots with precision on that component is the broken mechanic. I know to stuff vital components with heat sinks, etc., but that does nothing when the entire component is vaporized on one trigger pull. I think we SHOULD have precision when firing one weapon, it is realistic. Precision while firing multiple weapons simultaneously is not part of the BT universe.

[Karl Streiger]

Vetal, on 26 October 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

BTW, mech uses rangefinder which you see on the HUD. The same technology uses for dynamic targeting(I mean focus on target). So implementing that cone is technical noncence for 31st century because what you propose is a consequences of technology which was used on guns during the second world war.

show me any modern weapon system using multiple barrel weapons systems that are able to hit the same dime in the same salvo.
It doesn't have to be a burst - just say 4 guns - 1shot per barrel. i don't think that there is a system that want to hit the same dime with a salvo - but you can also use a single gun firing multiple shots - where each bullet travels through the same hole.

So a cone is more realistic that the current magic instant convergence - considering that multiple ton weapons have to be moved somehow

[Vetal]

Karl Streiger, on 26 October 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

show me any modern weapon system using multiple barrel weapons systems that are able to hit the same dime in the same salvo.
It doesn't have to be a burst - just say 4 guns - 1shot per barrel. i don't think that there is a system that want to hit the same dime with a salvo - but you can also use a single gun firing multiple shots - where each bullet travels through the same hole.

So a cone is more realistic that the current magic instant convergence - considering that multiple ton weapons have to be moved somehow

It is not a magic.
Just read what I've written again)
Do you know what is a rangefinder and how it works? We are talking about 31st century. Where 100ton mechs could run and turn pretty fast without infulencing of inertia. laser lens weight is much lower than mech weight.That means that focus of weapons is at the centre of crosshair always, exacltly at the aim of rangefinder, which is always turned on.

You use this technology on your mobile camera every day. But it has definitely lower speed of aiming. But mobile cameras were implemented not so long time ago.

Edited by Vetal, 26 October 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Vetal, on 26 October 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Just read what I've written again)
Do you know what is a rangefinder and how it works? We are talking about 31st century. Where 100ton mechs could run and turn pretty fast without infulencing of inertia. laser lens weight is much lower than mech weight.That means that focus of weapons is at the centre of crosshair always, exacltly at the aim of rangefinder, which is always turned on.

And still they won't hit the same spot, it is not even possible.(maybe for the lasers - but even those lasers can be reflected be ejecta, loose energy because of particles eg.)

to simulate this you have a cone. And i don't talking about KV 2 150mm canon cone - more the kind of a machine gun cone from ARMA, (in worst case a TankDestoyer 7.5mm gun)
simple a random (because it is random) value that spread the shot.
Not enough to turn a shot that should hit into a miss

And i was not refering to lasers - i know that the lense is the only moving part and should be able to focus on the "run" while firing. But this is not true for a GaussRifle, Autocannon or Charged Particle Beam weapon (ok maybe the nozzle can be focused)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 October 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Vetal, on 26 October 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Just read what I've written again)
Do you know what is rangefinder and how it works? We are talking about 31st century. Where 100ton mechs could run and turn pretty fast without infulencing of inertia. laser lens weight is much lower than mech weight.That means that focus of weapons is at the centre of crosshair always, exacltly at the aim of rangefinder.

I'm not sure you are too familiar with the BattleTech universe. In BT, the 31st century, technology has been mostly regressing for the past 300 years. Technology available in the 21st century is only half understood, making many things unrepairable if damaged. There is a reason that Jump ships are forbidden targets in BT, as there is nobody alive that actually knows how to make an K-F drive.

Edited by Hotthedd, 26 October 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Vetal]

Hotthedd, on 26 October 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm not sure you are too familiar with the BattleTech universe. In BT, the 31st century, technology has been mostly regressing for the past 300 years. Technology available in the 21st century is only half understood, making many things unrepairable if damaged. There is a reason that Jump ships are forbidden targets in BT, as there is nobody alive that actually knows how to make an K-F drive.

I am very familiar with this universe, believe me. Mechs aren't upgraded by this technology, it was installed upon the mech production. This is the part of targeting system.

Edited by Vetal, 26 October 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hotthedd, on 26 October 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm not sure you are too familiar with the BattleTech universe. In BT, the 31st century, technology has been mostly regressing for the past 300 years. Technology available in the 21st century is only half understood, making many things unrepairable if damaged. There is a reason that Jump ships are forbidden targets in BT, as there is nobody alive that actually knows how to make an K-F drive.

I think this explanation have to be rejected with the "invitation" of the clans. (they had there wars but not the total war of the succession wars - anyhow their weapons only hit targets up to 1000m - stupid right?)

It was some how plausible during the 3025 era - to explain the short ranges necessary for the board game (a miniature game were you want to have nice miniatures and ranges of 10km and beyond isn't so nice (or do you have a hall for gaming )

[Hotthedd]

Vetal, on 26 October 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I am very familiar with this universe, believe me. Mechs aren't upgraded by this technology, it was installed upon the mech production. This is the part of targeting system.

The only possible 'mechs that could have anything close to this would have to be both over 300 years old AND never had any damage done to their targeting computer.

Since the targeting computer was not invented until 2860, that leaves no I.S. 'mech able to accomplish this.

[Hotthedd]

Karl Streiger, on 26 October 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

I think this explanation have to be rejected with the "invitation" of the clans. (they had there wars but not the total war of the succession wars - anyhow their weapons only hit targets up to 1000m - stupid right?)

It was some how plausible during the 3025 era - to explain the short ranges necessary for the board game (a miniature game were you want to have nice miniatures and ranges of 10km and beyond isn't so nice (or do you have a hall for gaming )

The Clans have nothing to do with it, but the short ranges for the clans can be explained by Zellbrigen, as it was considered dishonorable to attack an opponent from ranges where they could not even know they were being attacked.

And no, marketing the TT game only to people with access to warehouses and grand ballrooms would not have sold very well.

[VorpalAnvil]

Hotthedd, on 26 October 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

Are you suggesting that hitting one component with multiple weapons in a single click takes more "skill" than hitting one component with multiple weapons with MULTIPLE clicks?

I would say the opposite is true. Being able to reliably deal damage to one spot from multiple weapons simultaneously dumbs this game down to arcade levels. It is not part of the Battletech universe.

Complaining about Alphas, OP clan tech or whatever the boogeyman of the week is, is easy. Using the system given to win matches and get kills/assists is hard. Pretending it is otherwise is just a cop out for poor performance and an unwillingness to change. [Redacted]

[Nightmare1]

I really don't see Alphas as an issue. They are high-risk, high-reward, generally speaking. If you miss your Alpha, then you're too hot to fight effectively when your enemy counterattacks you. Also, Alpha'ing can cause you to miss with weapons that fire at different speeds, for example, pulse lasers and SRMs. It's much more effective to fire in weapon groups than to alpha all at once.

Alpha Striking is really only a problem with concentrated, coordinated fire from multiple enemies simultaneously. In that instance, it really won't matter what mitigation PGI undertakes to remember the massive damage inflicted; concentrated fire is still concentrated fire and your TTK will still be very short.

That being said, my suggestions are as follows:

1) Increase the armor cap. People will devote additional tonnage to armor, which takes away from weapons, ammunition, and heat sinks. That helps auto-balance things to a certain extent. It's also the easiest and probably most effective counter that PGI can implement presently, without breaking the game mechanics.

2) Implement reactive and reflective armor like we had in MW4. Both sets of armor take up as many slots as Ferro Fibrous while weighing 2x as much per point. Reactive will reduce ballistic damage by 1/2 while doubling energy damage dealt to your Mech. Reflective will reduce incoming energy damage by half while doubling incoming ballistic damage. Missiles will deal 1.5x damage to both Reactive and Reflective. Reflective helps curb the laser vomit while Reactive prevents everyone from just changing back to ballistics en masse. Missiles get a much needed buff while the tonnage and slot demand for reactive and reflective help balance the Mechs. Standard and Ferro Fibrous Armor will remain in-game as options. Initially, there would be a good bit of turbulence, but then things would settle out after a bit with some players choosing to focus on Mech Variant as an energy killer, another as a ballistic killer, and a third as a balanced build. Thus, it could help develop Mech roletypes a bit as well.

3) Avoid cone of fire and convergence mechanics at all costs! That will just increase the skill gap disparity between "good" pilots and "bad" pilots. In addition, every game I've seen that has these mechanics degenerates into a run-and-gun where everyone takes high-volume of fire weapons and very fast characters. Ghost Recon: Phantoms is a great example. When it hit Steam, the game dynamic changed drastically. Now the only thing you really see are short guns with rapid deployment times and very high firing rates. Players forgo armor in favor of speed, and they wind up just sprinting and hosing everything. The same is true of most other such games I've played. Cone of fire and convergence are neat ideas in a vacuum, but they fail in reality because players adapt to circumvent them, creating a worse meta and a more frustrating gaming experience. In addition, this isn't TT, so we don't need a RNG to determine hit chance.

4) Add an Alpha Heat Generation mechanic and remove all Ghost Heat. When you Alpha, the game sums the weapon heat generated and then doubles it to simulate overloading your heat dissipation system in a similar manner to how Ghost Heat penalizes individual weapons. Removing Ghost Heat rewards single, chain, and group firing while implementing an Alpha Mechanic affects only Alphas. The Alpha Mechanic can have a 2-second time spacing so that pilots can't just use a macro to fire all their guns in a quasi-meta and within 1/2 second to circumvent the Alpha Mechanic. 2-Seconds should be enough time for an enemy to twist and spread the damage for the next incoming Alpha.

Just my 2 cents...

Edited by Nightmare1, 26 October 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Hotthedd]

VorpalAnvil, on 26 October 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Complaining about Alphas, OP clan tech or whatever the boogeyman of the week is, is easy. Using the system given to win matches and get kills/assists is hard. Pretending it is otherwise is just a cop out for poor performance and an unwillingness to change. In short; GETGUDSCRUB

Using the current system to win matches and get kills and assists might seem hard to YOU, but to me it is so easy as to be borderline boring.[Redacted]

My concern with the mechanic is not due to the fact that I cannot point-n-click (I can), but due to the fact that it makes MW:O twitchy and arcade like. I would rather a layer of difficulty be added.