51 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

What good does lowering laser range do if gauss/laser vomit alphastrikes still do 50-70 damage?

Instead of dying at long-range now you just die at medium-range. And likely the damage will be even greater and TTK even lower because we'll be inside the optimum ranges of those weapons.

Am I missing something? It seems like two of the game biggest balance problems: convergence and TTK have been completely ignored.

[TyphonCh]

They should replace the %60 laser damage nonsense with convergence. There's no way they didn't notice this thread

http://mwomercs.com/...ple-its-amazing

The rest of the changes are acceptable. 15hp to all equipment and weapons (except gauss I assume?) will increase TTK by a small margin

Edited by Team Chevy86, 14 October 2015 - 12:10 AM.

[Dracol]

Correct me if I am wrong, but delayed convergence was initially removed due to tech limitations and hit registration. If that is the case, most likely it will never be changed beyond what we have now: convergence on the point the reticle is aiming at.

[PanzerFurrry]

Not implementing convergence due to technical difficulties is a moot point from PGI. Other CryEngine games have a working convergence systems, most recently Armoured Warfare from Obsidian, which uses exactly the same engine as MWO. AW also has ammo switching, collisions, destructable terrain, HSR, no 150+ km/h limitation, infotech (stealth, camouflage, spotting, target sharing), bots, PvE missions, etc.

[Nori Silverrage]

PanzerFurrry, on 14 October 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Not implementing convergence due to technical difficulties is a moot point from PGI. Other CryEngine games have a working convergence systems, most recently Armoured Warfare from Obsidian, which uses exactly the same engine as MWO. AW also has ammo switching, collisions, destructable terrain, HSR, no 150+ km/h limitation, infotech (stealth, camouflage, spotting, target sharing), bots, PvE missions, etc.

I heard from a friend that Armoured Warfare is on a newer engine than MWO and thus I can't help but think that that has a lot of play in the limitations.

[SpiralFace]

Agree with the OP.

While it doesn't have to be a focus of the current PTS, the point remains, that Massive spikes of Alphas still severly favor the clan side, and still severly will drive the meta because it is not balanced against the other two ways that damage is applied to mechs (DPS builds, and Sandblasting builds.)

It doesn't have to be the focus of this PTS, but this is an albatross that hangs over the entire game's weapon balance.

[L3mming2]

PanzerFurrry, on 14 October 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Not implementing convergence due to technical difficulties is a moot point from PGI. Other CryEngine games have a working convergence systems, most recently Armoured Warfare from Obsidian, which uses exactly the same engine as MWO. AW also has ammo switching, collisions, destructable terrain, HSR, no 150+ km/h limitation, infotech (stealth, camouflage, spotting, target sharing), bots, PvE missions, etc.

what in AW can go faster than 150kph??

[Gas Guzzler]

Well at least fast movers (read: 80ish kph) under ECM can get into brawling range more easily without taking said 50-70 damage alphas, but yeah, not a huge effect on big alpha strikes. Most of those mechs in the 60-80 damage range though can only alpha twice before having to stagger fire, so in a sustained brawl they will get a few of those shots off and then will be struggling to stay cool. If it is harder to poke from range, we might start seeing mechs with smaller alphas and more heatsinks being more effective so they can maintain fire better since these changes shift things towards closer ranges.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 October 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[JernauM]

TTK is only low if you make a mistake by exposing your mech in view of multiple enemies, standing still in view of enemy mechs, failing to spread damage, failing to maintain situation awareness, or committing other such pilot errors.

[NextGame]

alphas are not a problem, convergence is a problem.

Also, people who cry about others not running around with mixed builds are a problem.

[Outlaw]

Sadly the best fix to this issue is going to be the one that no one wants to hear, and that is heavily limiting customization on mechs. They have tried Ghost Heat, no one likes it and it is still exploitable. They have tried fiddling with weapon velocities to reduce overlap of certain weapons and while this change did reduce the lethality of certain weapon combinations, it hindered the performance on some weapons to the point that you rarely see them in play. Now they are trying to lower the ranges on Lasers, and honestly given the track record of the way things are going it will only force the fighting into closer ranges, which doesnt fix the core problem of absurd pin point damage.

Otherwise you need to do something with convergence, and I have stated for a long time that I like the way that movement effects targeting in 3rd person and would like to see that experimented with as the standard targeting mechanic.

Edited by Outlaw, 14 October 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[NextGame]

Outlaw, on 14 October 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Sadly the best fix to this issue is going to be the one that no one wants to hear, and that is heavily limiting customization on mechs. They have tried Ghost Heat, no one likes it and it is still exploitable. They have tried fiddling with weapon velocities to reduce overlap of certain weapons and while this change did reduce the lethality of certain weapon combinations, it hindered the performance on some weapons to the point that you rarely see them in play. Now they are trying to lower the ranges on Lasers, and honestly given the track record of the way things are going it will only force the fighting into closer ranges, which doesnt fix the core problem of absurd pin point damage.

Otherwise you need to do something with convergence, and I have stated for a long time that I like the way that movement effects targeting in 3rd person and would like to see that experimented with as the standard targeting mechanic.

I would literally uninstall if 3pv targetting was implemented in 1st person.

[Felbombling]

I know this is going to get me flamed a bit, but I'd like to see simultaneous weapons fire go. Let's just put a fork into alpha strikes once and for all. Damage would spread around a little more and ttk would go up as a direct result. My suggestion would be to create a short duration chain fire effect as the new standard, along with the existing chain fire mode.

[Talynn DeRaa]

As much as I love these changes, OP is right. We need something else. The whole 60% damage falloff thing isn't enough, or isn't what this game needs.

If there's still technical limitations to convergence then...I don't know. I mean, Armored Warfare seems to pull it off just fine, and they're also using CryTek. Eh. Whatever. I suppose we'll have to suffer with what we've got. At the very least this makes the game more bearable since I can actually -see- the mech I shoot at and not have to play the long-range poking meta.

Though I would still like to see some more changes to heat, and how higher heat will affect a mech, as well as perhaps a smaller maximum heat threshold. Changes to pilot skills and modules would do, too. But I think PGI already has ideas for that, should they announce a "phase 3" for the current PTS stuff.

Loving these changes so far.

[Khobai]

Quote

TTK is only low if you make a mistake by exposing your mech in view of multiple enemies, standing still in view of enemy mechs, failing to spread damage, failing to maintain situation awareness, or committing other such pilot errors.

What are you talking about? Mechs arnt ninjas. You cant play the game without ever getting seen or shot at by anyone. What a ludicrous assertion. Getting shot at in MWO is inevitable and unavoidable.

Besides you only need to expose your mech to ONE enemy to suffer massive damage. The alphas are 50-70 damage. I recommend you go play medium mechs then come back here and tell me TTK is fine. Medium mechs have 30-40 armor. Most of your armor and half your internals get stripped out from being shot ONE time lol.

And what advantage do medium mechs even get over heavy mechs anyway? Heavy mechs like the timberwolf go 90kph which is practically as fast as any medium mech. Theres virtually no reason to play a medium mech over a heavy mech in the current game.

One of the goals of the mech rebalancing should be to make all four weight classes more equal, and the only way to make things fairer for medium mechs, which have neither the speed of lights or the armor of heavies, and often have major size scaling issues, is to massively reduce the damage from alphastrikes. Fast heavies also need a speed nerf in order to restore the speed advantage back to mediums. But thats a topic for another discussion.

Edited by Khobai, 14 October 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[Jabilac]

I can't help but point out that the new bulletin said this was in now way representative of the final build. Just removing all variables accept the ones they want to test to better understand what these changes specifically will do to gameplay.

[50 50]

Completely agree with Jabilac.
It was spelt out pretty clearly and repeated several times what the objectives of this test run are, the points they were looking for feedback on and that this is a small section of the changes which are in no way final or complete.
Posting about something that is not in the scope for testing is irrelevant.
It's like going to a car yard, asking to test drive a minivan, then saying it's not right it should handle like a motorbike.

Edited by 50 50, 14 October 2015 - 03:13 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Outlaw, on 14 October 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Sadly the best fix to this issue is going to be the one that no one wants to hear, and that is heavily limiting customization on mechs. They have tried Ghost Heat, no one likes it and it is still exploitable. They have tried fiddling with weapon velocities to reduce overlap of certain weapons and while this change did reduce the lethality of certain weapon combinations, it hindered the performance on some weapons to the point that you rarely see them in play. Now they are trying to lower the ranges on Lasers, and honestly given the track record of the way things are going it will only force the fighting into closer ranges, which doesnt fix the core problem of absurd pin point damage.

Otherwise you need to do something with convergence, and I have stated for a long time that I like the way that movement effects targeting in 3rd person and would like to see that experimented with as the standard targeting mechanic.

You stunt customization and the real QQ begins; it's totally non-viable from a business perspective.

[oldradagast]

Of course it is still a problem: this goofy laser-nerf with ghost damage and all the rest just delays the alpha strike a bit and - ironically - punishes some mechs for trying to hit back if they don't have a lock. But once the lock is there, the entire pinpoint alpha strike can still hit for full effect.

A variable cone of fire is the only logical solution. This would end the long-range pinpoint alphas, and this solution makes sense (unlike "ghost damage"), feels similar to tabletop, and is within the game engine's abilities since we already have a cone of fire when using MASC, jumpjets, and machine guns.

Finally, info-tech can just be tightening up the cone a bit when you have a lock, and that's it. No need for blind mechs, ghost damage, and other silliness.

[Khobai]

Quote

You stunt customization and the real QQ begins; it's totally non-viable from a business perspective.

I agree stunting customization is NOT an option.

However I believe there should be a stock-only gamemode (MW3 and MW4 both had that option).

To ensure fairness, each team would start with an identical roster of stock mechs, and players would be assigned a random stock mech at the start of the match.

There is no reason the game cant strive to make everyone happy.

Edited by Khobai, 14 October 2015 - 11:50 PM.