51 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Russhuster, on 11 February 2016 - 04:05 AM, said:

If i see some bad chassis are not played hat to do?
i nerf the "usable"( The DWF was the slowest and most unmaneuverable mech bevore december nerf now its just a clay pigeon) chassis into the dirt so the former bad chassis are now more useful than the former most lame mech on the field

yah it gan load some weapons but its so slow you cant even torso twist properly anymore for that reason its a barely moving target a glasscannon or a bad joke
just play a whale now and see by yourself

great solution

Dont you forget something there IraqiWalker?

The IS got plenty of agility movement and structure AR and whatelse buffs and quirks
The Direwolf got ?
N O T H I N G - ah not quite true he has one quirk in RED +12-15% heat penalty

so true both sides got reduced the same,
but also true one side got bolstered by plenty of quirks in the range of 40-50% Bonus
the other side got what the whale got - nothing but the Nerfhammer to the face - again
so it is a nerf for one side

You don't seem to understand why any of this happened, so I'll explain it:

1- The DWF was too good. Now it's reasonable (I did mention I have DWFs that I play very regularly, right? I know what I'm talking about)

2- The IS mech needed the buffs, because they are so far behind, compared to clan mechs. If we don't buff IS mechs, we'll have to nerf clan mechs even more, because that's how big the gap between the two is. Do I need to remind you of the 90% win ratio clan mechs enjoyed at one point?

3- Since both sides had their mobility reduced equally, that means relative mobility for both is the same.

4- How about we take a look at clan mechs that aren't the top performers shall we, did they get nerfed too? Oh what's that, they didn't? because those mechs needed help. Other than the global mobility nerf that applied to both sides equally. Most clan mechs are unchanged.

5- I'm not sure what game you're playing, but while the Blackjack is sure tanky, it's not the best medium in the game. That still goes hands down to the Stormcrow, the most flexible mech with enough firepower to make assaults scared.



I also need to emphasize this vehemently: You don't know what "Glass Cannon" means. A Glass cannon in MWO terms would be a mech that can hit really hard, but die very easily. The DWF boasts the highest armor a mech can mount (618), because it's a 100 ton mech. I'm sorry, but that's NOT a glass cannon. The 11 ERPPC DWF is a glass cannon. The max armor 6 UAC 5 DWF is NOT.

[Russhuster]

You may own some DWF chassis but i really doubt yuv played these after the december nerf

i do own and use both DWF and is Assaults the Atlas for example so i do know very well what am talking about
and compared to an DWF an atlas is a swift ballerina so both sides were reduced the same way, yes but only one side was bolstered afterwards so
obviously iam not the one not knowing what am talking about
you should really play a DWF and an IS assault to compare theyr performance directly


1
The DWF was the slowest, and most unmaneuverable mech on the field even bevore december nerf true or not?
The nerfing did enlargen that gap even more and reduced trs mobility as well as its general moving ability serously affecting every point even twist angle and speed - resulting in an enormous loss of survivability
true or not?
The direwolf was slow but with some tactical understanding palyable
Now its just a clay pigeon

2 Is mechs needed buffs more to withstand theyr own quirkmonsters than to have a stand against a whale whilst i managed to put a stand against a direwolf in an atlas, i had no chance against quirkbuckets like the Blackjack that has survivabilty as an atlas ex nihilo but the speed of an fast medium

3
NO not both sides were not at the ( even relatively) ame speed
as i could run away in most atlas variants easily esp the the boars head with 70 km/h even bevore the december nerf where did any direwolf ever go even near that speed? after bolstering my boars runs as fast the Direwolf on the other hand got nothing but nerfed down and thats a fact

4 as you will see when you read the topic this thread is concerning the DIRE WOLF not any other mechs
but to answer you, most underperforming Robots didnt get equal buffs on clan side with one exception the adder
all others got uncosidered quirks what did not really meet the needs of the specific chassis or they didnt get any help at all

MOst Clan mechs are unchanged? are you kidding?
the heat sink nerf was most essential to the hot running clan technology reducig theyr strike ability painfully even more
are you interested in a reasonable debate at all?
5 as the Blackjack is a combination of good speed small sprite with very good hitboxes and ridiculous quirks it IS the best medium at the moment and when you take a look at your IS forums you can read it there
The Crow has firepower and flexibility bit is strafed with the heat Malus and Nerfs of all Clan chassis and paper ar now related to a BJ

Damage output does not replace mobility in this game nor does the AR. Flexibility is more worth than AR as you know very well
There is a point when a mech is nerfed so downward that even its turnrate is to slow and there youll find the direwolf now

I do know what a glass cannon is refering to very well ( you described that quite correctly)
and thats exactly what the DWF has become

[Salticidae]

The 618 armour means nothing on a Direwolf, it's that big it's so easy to put all you fire power in to one spot.

You can take half its fire power away with 2 good shots.

It takes far less firepower to down a Direwolf or make it useless, then it does to kill a light.

Having all this firepower on a Direwolf is useless when you can't get into the fight, on alpine peaks it takes 4 minutes from the spawn point to get to the hill, by the time you get there you have 2-4 people already dead.

A lot of the games the Direwolf does get in to trouble isn't its speed, but very poor spawn points, to me the assaults should always spawn as the middle lance.

I love the Direwolf I have played over 2500 pug games in mine, the slow speed I can put up with but it really needs structure quirks.

Edited by Zyne, 19 February 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Alienized]

Zyne, on 19 February 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

The 618 armour means nothing on a Direwolf, it's that big it's so easy to put all you fire power in to one spot.

You can take half its fire power away with 2 good shots.

It takes far less firepower to down a Direwolf or make it useless, then it does to kill a light.

Having all this firepower on a Direwolf is useless when you can't get into the fight, on alpine peaks it takes 4 minutes from the spawn point to get to the hill, by the time you get there you have 2-4 people already dead.

A lot of the games the Direwolf does get in to trouble isn't its speed, but very poor spawn points, to me the assaults should always spawn as the middle lance.

I love the Direwolf I have played over 2500 pug games in mine, the slow speed I can put up with but it really needs structure quirks.

the king crabs got the same prob, the atlas usually cant even have a proper range weaponry and isnt much faster. it can sponge awhile but thats it. what do we learn from it?

each mech is situational and map depending.
that counts for assaults even more.

[IraqiWalker]

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

You may own some DWF chassis but i really doubt yuv played these after the december nerf

You really don't read peoples' posts, do you? I stated specifically, that I pilot my DWFs regularly.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

i do own and use both DWF and is Assaults the Atlas for example so i do know very well what am talking about
and compared to an DWF an atlas is a swift ballerina so both sides were reduced the same way, yes but only one side was bolstered afterwards so
obviously iam not the one not knowing what am talking about
you should really play a DWF and an IS assault to compare theyr performance directly

How was the IS bolstered? WHen did the IS get bolstered?

I would really appreciate you sticking to reality, and not overexaggerating things here, or even fabricating them from thin air.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

1
The DWF was the slowest, and most unmaneuverable mech on the field even bevore december nerf true or not?
The nerfing did enlargen that gap even more and reduced trs mobility as well as its general moving ability serously affecting every point even twist angle and speed - resulting in an enormous loss of survivability
true or not?
The direwolf was slow but with some tactical understanding palyable
Now its just a clay pigeon

You don't even know what the nerf did, do you? It reduced the max speed given by the "Speed Tweak" skill. It did NOT affect it's twisting speed at all, since that's actually dictated by the ENGINE. Not it's movement speed. So no, the nerf didn't reduce anything other than it's top speed.

Again: It's much better to read the actual patch notes, and check what has been done for yourself, instead of making it up.

The DWF is still fine, it literally lost a fraction of it's top speed. That's it.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

2 Is mechs needed buffs more to withstand theyr own quirkmonsters than to have a stand against a whale whilst i managed to put a stand against a direwolf in an atlas, i had no chance against quirkbuckets like the Blackjack that has survivabilty as an atlas ex nihilo but the speed of an fast medium

We already addressed all of this in our discussion of why quirks are much better than no quirks, and you are still wrong about quirks. Especially about the IS needing it to withstand their own mechs, when it was clear before quirks how terrible the situation was for IS mechs against Clan mechs.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

3
NO not both sides were not at the ( even relatively) ame speed
as i could run away in most atlas variants easily esp the the boars head with 70 km/h even bevore the december nerf where did any direwolf ever go even near that speed? after bolstering my boars runs as fast the Direwolf on the other hand got nothing but nerfed down and thats a fact

Are you telling me that if I mount a 300 rated engine in my Atlas, it's going to move faster than the DWF with a 300 engine? Also, nice try with picking out literally the only Atlas that can mount 400 engine, and using that as comparison against the DWF with a fixed 300 engine. Sample bias is still a problem you need to work on.

Answer this simple question: Does an Atlas with a 300 engine move faster than a DWF?

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

4 as you will see when you read the topic this thread is concerning the DIRE WOLF not any other mechs
but to answer you, most underperforming Robots didnt get equal buffs on clan side with one exception the adder
all others got uncosidered quirks what did not really meet the needs of the specific chassis or they didnt get any help at all

No it's not about the DWF. Read the OP. No one was even talking about the DWF, except for you.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

MOst Clan mechs are unchanged? are you kidding?
the heat sink nerf was most essential to the hot running clan technology reducig theyr strike ability painfully even more

2 slot DHS on slot free clan mechs is too strong. It needed a nerf. Or did you want the IS to get better DHS? Either way, clan pilots were going to be unhappy.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

are you interested in a reasonable debate at all?

Yes, are you?

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

5 as the Blackjack is a combination of good speed small sprite with very good hitboxes and ridiculous quirks it IS the best medium at the moment and when you take a look at your IS forums you can read it there
The Crow has firepower and flexibility bit is strafed with the heat Malus and Nerfs of all Clan chassis and paper ar now related to a BJ

No, I know the BJ-1 is overperforming, but if you go to those same forums, you'll still see everyone saying the SCR is the better medium. Armor doesn't mean jack when it can be burned from miles away, and the SCR has speed, damage, and mobility. The BJ-1 has mobility, and health. Damage beats health every time.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Damage output does not replace mobility in this game nor does the AR. Flexibility is more worth than AR as you know very well
There is a point when a mech is nerfed so downward that even its turnrate is to slow and there youll find the direwolf now

Except for the part where the DWF did not get it's turn rate nerfed at all. Again: The mobility debuff only reduced the DWF top speed.

Russhuster, on 12 February 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

I do know what a glass cannon is refering to very well ( you described that quite correctly)
and thats exactly what the DWF has become

We'll agree to disagree here. Since I can definitely make my DWF last longer than most mechs in the game.

[Russhuster]

@ IraqiWalker
you have stated that but after reading you claiming that the direwolof is in a reasonable or even good state, i really doubt yure knowing what youre talking about
either that or you dont spend much time in a DWF cockpit

Quote

How was the IS bolstered? WHen did the IS get bolstered?

IS got bollstered with the skilltree nerf simultanuously by buffing speed, agility in xome cases even the angles of turning etc
like ACC rete *45% decc rate +45% turning rate +30% torso turning rate + 40% for example THAT way of bolstered
True or pulled out of thin air?
and i can proof the numbers - thats reality enough for you? - iam listening

I do know what the nerf did very well.. but i do also know what the quirks do they gave to the other mechs with that patch
when comparing chassi, BOTH sides need to be looked at - just in case youve forgotten that tiny FACT

Quote

The DWF is still fine, it literally lost a fraction of it's top speed. That's it.

Thats a blunt lie
IN direct comparism to a tonnage equal mech the DWF lost a lot of heat efficiency, Quite some Speed, and a vast ammount of maneuverability ( not to talk of surviveability)

Your statement is telling me that you havnt used a DWF since the nerf otherwise you would ve known
look, i even asked you to do so, not out of fun, but out of the wish we both know the actual ( miserable) state the DWF is in
You cant be that blind

Quote

We already addressed all of this in our discussion of why quirks are much better than no quirks, and you are still wrong about quirks

We agree to disagree there, i remain convinced that quirks are a wrong and desasterous way of not achieving balance,.. but this i will refere to in my anser in the correct thread but iam taking my tim,e to test some more chassis out bevore giving you an answer there

Quote

Answer this simple question: Does an Atlas with a 300 engine move faster than a DWF?

No, but the atlas can build in a larger engine the DWF cant.
So the Direwolf is now nerfed slower than even the stock readout says FACT

Please answer the following question
There are Atlanti named the Boars head running 70 kph from the stock

Where is the 70 kph running Direwolf?

Quote

No it's not about the DWF. Read the OP. No one was even talking about the DWF, except for you.

well lets see
were in :

• MWO /
  
• FORUMS /
  
• SUPPORT & FEEDBACK /
  
• 'MECH RE BALANCE PHASE 4 /
  
• ASSAULT 'MECHS /
  
• DIrewolf

and there in the thread reality check
so,... YEEEEZZZZZ were in a thread concerning the dire wolf

so much for - welcome to reality

Quote

2 slot DHS on slot free clan mechs is too strong. It needed a nerf. Or did you want the IS to get better DHS? Either way, clan pilots were going to be unhappy.

As clan tech is very heat extensive and most payload is extremely puny ( the DWF is the one and only exception there )
the heat sinks were needed badly, as every single peace of clantech is delivering more heat, now as the Clan Double heat sink capacity is nerfed to single heat sink - do you think Clan pilots are happy now?
Do you really think we re getting a chance of equal player numbers on both sides that way?

Quote

Yes, are you?

definitely - thats why iam still here and in other threads as well since 2013 as yourself by the way

Now after the rebalance the BJ still feels very strong to me and now i would agree with you the SCR is a tiny bit better than the BJ but we wonnt forget The SCR MUST be stronger it is a 55 ton mech whilst the BJ has 45ton
if you compare it with the 45 tons of a shadow cat the shadow cat still stands no chance against a BJ
but this doesnt belong here

Quote

Except for the part where the DWF did not get it's turn rate nerfed at all. Again: The mobility debuff only reduced the DWF top speed.

You always have to look at the whole picture you can never judge balance when you just look at one side
again
when one side is nerfd while the other is buffed at the same time both sides MUST be concerbned in a balance evaluationfull stop !

[IraqiWalker]

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

@ IraqiWalker
you have stated that but after reading you claiming that the direwolof is in a reasonable or even good state, i really doubt yure knowing what youre talking about
either that or you dont spend much time in a DWF cockpit

It is in a reasonable state. I just finished running my Gauss + lasers, and my 4xUAC 10 DWFs, and both performed just fine. Yes, the top speed is annoying, but it's nothing I'm not used to with the DWF. Especially now that it has zero negative quirks.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

IS got bollstered with the skilltree nerf simultanuously by buffing speed, agility in xome cases even the angles of turning etc
like ACC rete *45% decc rate +45% turning rate +30% torso turning rate + 40% for example THAT way of bolstered
True or pulled out of thin air?
and i can proof the numbers - thats reality enough for you? - iam listening

show us the numbers, and yes, that would be reality for me. Especially if those quirks you mentioned were put in place when the mobility nerf happened.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

I do know what the nerf did very well.. but i do also know what the quirks do they gave to the other mechs with that patch
when comparing chassi, BOTH sides need to be looked at - just in case youve forgotten that tiny FACT

I've based my entire point in discussing how both sides need to be looked at. You're the one who's been using only the DWF, and the BJ-1 (both edge cases that are not anywhere near the norm), as the bases of your arguments.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Thats a blunt lie
IN direct comparism to a tonnage equal mech the DWF lost a lot of heat efficiency, Quite some Speed, and a vast ammount of maneuverability ( not to talk of surviveability)

The C-DHS nerf is nothing new, and it lost NO mobility, or survivability. It lost top speed, that's it. Do I need to repeat this: Torso turn rate, and turn speed don't care about your top speed, they are set by the engine. Your turning radius when going full speed is affected by your speed. As in, you will take longer to turn a full 180 degrees, while going faster.

These are the patch notes for Dec. 1st, when they nerfed mobility on all mechs (btw, the DWF actually had it's mobility buffed in that patch). Could you please show me where the IS buffs are listed there? Because those buffs don't exist in that patch. Dec 15th has nothing in there, either.

Jan. 19th listed no adjustments to quirks either. Then came Feb. 16th, which nerfed IS, and buffed clan. So when exactly did the IS get "bolstered" with those quirks you're mentioning?

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Your statement is telling me that you havnt used a DWF since the nerf otherwise you would ve known
look, i even asked you to do so, not out of fun, but out of the wish we both know the actual ( miserable) state the DWF is in
You cant be that blind

I literally just finished a drop in my DWF-Prime. I'm not denying that to you, the mech sucks. However, to me, the mech is doing fine. Yes, I wish it could go a bit faster, but it's survivability, turning rates, and firepower are still just great. In fact, with the removal of all negative quirks, it's fantastic, in those categories, now.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

We agree to disagree there, i remain convinced that quirks are a wrong and desasterous way of not achieving balance,.. but this i will refere to in my anser in the correct thread but iam taking my tim,e to test some more chassis out bevore giving you an answer there

Fine. I just think balancing on a case by case basis, is much better than broad changes that break the game.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

No, but the atlas can build in a larger engine the DWF cant.
So the Direwolf is now nerfed slower than even the stock readout says FACT

Please answer the following question
There are Atlanti named the Boars head running 70 kph from the stock

Where is the 70 kph running Direwolf?

This has been the case since day 1. If you want an omni mech, deal with the locked in engine. That's the trade off for the omni system.

The clans are getting a 100 ton omni assault mech that can break 85 Kph. Where's the IS one that can do that?

Saying that the Atlas can use a bigger engine is not an argument for your case. That Atlas would have to sacrifice even more of it's middling firepower, in order to move faster. Do you know the weight difference between a STD 300, and a STD 350? 9.5 tons. That's a lot of firepower weight that the Atlas would have to sacrifice in order to move fast. Most Atlas pilots used to mount a STD 325. That's not the case anymore. If they want to move at similar speeds to what they had before, they need to mount bigger engines. Bigger engine means less firepower.

So while the DWF moves slowly, and packs the firepower of 3 mechs. The Atlas has to have less firepower, in order to move a bit faster.

Literally the only time an Atlas can beat a DWF is if the DWF lets the Atlas get within 270 meters, and even then, the odds are not in the Atlas's favor.

Oh, and ALL the mechs have now been nerfed to move slower than their stock readout (except for the Summoner)

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

well lets see
were in :

• MWO /
  
• FORUMS /
  
• SUPPORT & FEEDBACK /
  
• 'MECH RE BALANCE PHASE 4 /
  
• ASSAULT 'MECHS /
  
• DIrewolf

and there in the thread reality check

so,... YEEEEZZZZZ were in a thread concerning the dire wolf

so much for - welcome to reality

And players post about mech builds in the New Players' section. What of it? The post starting this thread said nothing about the DWF, neither did most of the posts in it.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

As clan tech is very heat extensive and most payload is extremely puny ( the DWF is the one and only exception there )
the heat sinks were needed badly, as every single peace of clantech is delivering more heat, now as the Clan Double heat sink capacity is nerfed to single heat sink - do you think Clan pilots are happy now?
Do you really think we re getting a chance of equal player numbers on both sides that way?

Have you been piloting clan mechs? Other than the MLX, and the IFR, most clan mechs can carry scary loadouts. There is no "puny" in heavy mechs running around with 90+ point alpha strikes. Really, let's go through them, and check their common builds, and potential builds. Let's see how many clan mechs have "puny" loadouts.


Now let's address the whole "nerfed to single heatsink" claim. That is an absolutely false statement. Let's look at the stats:
IS:

SHS: 0.12 dissipation external, 0.11 if internal (when it comes with the engine), and 1.2 increase to heat threshold

DHS: 0.14 dissipation external, 0.20 if internal (when it comes with the engine), and 1.5 increase to heat threshold

IS DHS comes in 3 slots

Clan

DHS: 0.15 dissipation if external, 0.20 if internal (when it comes with the engine), 1.1 increase to heat threshold.

C-DHS comes in 2 slots.

So what the clan mechs got was better dissipation, for a slight reduction to their max threshold. While at the same time being able to fit more DHS than a comparable IS mech. They cool faster, and are definitely not "nerfed to single heatsink" levels. Not even close.

Yes, the threshold is reduced a bit, but that is more than made up for by the fact that they can pack a lot of those DHS. Especially if the clan mech has both endo, and ferro. Since those two combined will equal one IS upgrade in slots cost, while freeing up a lot of tonnage.

In regards to equal player counts, are we talking CW? Or general population? Because in general population there are almost no players that don't have at least one clan mech

If it's CW, then it clans actually had most of the population, until the Warhammer came out, and people switched to IS.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

definitely - thats why iam still here and in other threads as well since 2013 as yourself by the way

Now after the rebalance the BJ still feels very strong to me and now i would agree with you the SCR is a tiny bit better than the BJ but we wonnt forget The SCR MUST be stronger it is a 55 ton mech whilst the BJ has 45ton
if you compare it with the 45 tons of a shadow cat the shadow cat still stands no chance against a BJ
but this doesnt belong here

The SCR always was, and has been stronger.

Russhuster, on 20 February 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

You always have to look at the whole picture you can never judge balance when you just look at one side
again
when one side is nerfd while the other is buffed at the same time both sides MUST be concerbned in a balance evaluationfull stop !

This is where I think the main flaw of your reasoning really is.

That is simply not true.

When one side is so far ahead, there are three choices:

1- Nerf the strong side extremely to the point where it's close to the weaker side. (bad choice)

2- Buff the weaker side extremely to the point where it's close to the strong side. (bad choice)

3- Nerf the strong side a bit, and buff the weak side a bit, so both reach a middle ground. (the beset choice)


PGI went with option 3, which is the smart move.

Looking at the bigger picture, and not just two mechs, both sides are relatively well balanced. Though this is before considering the new global buff clan mechs mechs got, and the new global nerf IS mechs got.

[Russhuster]

i think i ve found the flaw in your reasoning,
you do believe PGI did choose option 3

while PGI did chose a combination of option one and two simultanuously

Quote

1- Nerf the strong side extremely to the point where it's close to the weaker side. (bad choice)

2- Buff the weaker side extremely to the point where it's close to the strong side. (bad choice)

whilst negative mulipicated with negative results to positive in mathematic issues
two bad choices do always lead to a worse outcome

so bad choice * bad choice isnt the best choice but the worst combination
and this is exactly what the player numbers are reflecting

the numbers i stated are taken from the boars head
and these numbers DO give more maneuveraqbility over a DWF as the other atlanti have similar quirks

again
Always consider both sides and the effects in comparism
the engine in itself makes the DWF slower what a DWF player can not compensate at all
whilst an Altlas player can do - its that denieal of choices that makes the DWF inferior in the result or reasoning

the heat sinks ARE nerfed to single heat sink CAPACITY - you should really read what your partner is writing
that nerf is affecting the strike ability of every clan mech very severely as all clantech is very heat generating and Clan has more and earlier appiling ghostheat. As a result of that the IS mech can put out 4-6 strikes where a Clan mech may be able to fire one or two salvos and that makes a very decisive difference

the SCR HAD TO be superior, it is 10 tons heavier
but when you compare the ShadowCat to the BJ as these chassi have a congruent weight the BJ is far superior - true or what?
but i will refere to that in the other thread when i get time to do so

Edited by Russhuster, 22 February 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Russhuster, on 22 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

i think i ve found the flaw in your reasoning,
you do believe PGI did choose option 3

while PGI did chose a combination of option one and two simultanuously

PGI chose option three. Read the descriptions for options 1 and 2.

PGI did not cripple the clan mechs, they barely nerfed them a bit. They didn't buff IS mechs to godly levels, just buffed them a bit.

Russhuster, on 22 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

whilst negative mulipicated with negative results to positive in mathematic issues
two bad choices do always lead to a worse outcome

so bad choice * bad choice isnt the best choice but the worst combination
and this is exactly what the player numbers are reflecting

What player numbers? The total player count for this game is actually growing. Go into the solo queue, and the group queue, and you'll see clan mechs being run as often as IS mechs.

What numbers are we talking about?

Russhuster, on 22 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

the numbers i stated are taken from the boars head
and these numbers DO give more maneuveraqbility over a DWF as the other atlanti have similar quirks

What numbers? That an Atlas Boar's head can move faster than a direwolf? Yes it can, that's the upside of using a mech over an omni mech. The downside is that it will carry the firepower of a hunchback. A 100 ton mech, with the firepower of a medium, is a BAD mech.

You keep on picking one edge case, and use it as the norm, when it isn't. Show me what other Atlas mech can move at 70+ Kph? What other Atlas can carry the same firepower as a DWF, while moving at the same speed (hint: NONE of them). The DWF Prime arm alone carries almost as much firepower as an Atlas (C-Gauss Rifle + C-ERLL + 3 C-ERMLs).

You don't seem to understand that different mechs, with different roles, work differently.

The DWF is a weapons platform designed specifically to carry lots of firepower (preferably long range firepower),to kill things from 600 meters + in a few seconds (my DWF-Prime deals 94 PP damage in under 2.5 seconds. I can literally kill an Atlas from full to dead in 5 seconds of spotting him, that's what a DWF can do. It's designed specifically so it's teammates funnel enemies into it's firing lines and it does the killing. The role designation is Juggernaut.

While the Atlas is a command and assault mech, designed to lead a charge, handle being hit, and excel in close range combat.

If the clans wanted the DWF to do the same thing an Atlas does, they would have given it a bigger engine. They wanted a mech that can handle long range death dealing. Not a brawler. The Atlas brawls, the DWF kills at range.

You keep bringing the two up for comparison when it doesn't apply. They don't even serve the same function. It's like comparing a toaster and a blender.

Russhuster, on 22 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

again
Always consider both sides and the effects in comparism
the engine in itself makes the DWF slower what a DWF player can not compensate at all
whilst an Altlas player can do - its that denieal of choices that makes the DWF inferior in the result or reasoning

No it's not. How many times do I have to repeat myself: The DWF is an omni mech that carries more firepower than any other mech in the game. The Atlas at max firepower can't even compare, and is a battlemech, so it can swap engines. That's the tradeoff between the two systems.

Also, they don't serve the same roles, so stop comparing them in the worst method possible, which is using the Atlas hero varaint, the only one that can mount a 400 engine, against a DWF, with C-XLs, and almost double the firepower.

Russhuster, on 22 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

the heat sinks ARE nerfed to single heat sink CAPACITY - you should really read what your partner is writing
that nerf is affecting the strike ability of every clan mech very severely as all clantech is very heat generating and Clan has more and earlier appiling ghostheat. As a result of that the IS mech can put out 4-6 strikes where a Clan mech may be able to fire one or two salvos and that makes a very decisive difference

Read the numbers I posted, they are straight from the game files, they are not nerfed to SHS levels, not even close. The capacity/threshold is barely smaller than it used to be. But they dissipate better. In the end the nerf made it so a typical clan mech can alpha one time less per 10 seconds or so. Not alpha once, while the IS gets to do it 5 times. Hyperbole doesn't help your case here.

Russhuster, on 22 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

the SCR HAD TO be superior, it is 10 tons heavier
but when you compare the ShadowCat to the BJ as these chassi have a congruent weight the BJ is far superior - true or what?
but i will refere to that in the other thread when i get time to do so

I'm sorry, did you say the SHC is worse than the Blackjack? The SHC that can mount a Gauss rifle without dying to ST loss, while the BJ has to mount an XL engine to even be viable?

Don't get me wrong, the SHC could use a smaller engine, but it is not worse than the BJ by any stretch. Especially when considering the fact that it will have the range and speed advantage, to dictate how the fight goes.


The Blackjack can win in short range with the AC 20 build. That build requires an XL engine, pop the ST, you pop the BJ. Especially now that the BJ is no longer as tanky as it used to be (which I completely support, it was too tanky). THe BJ-1X can move faster, without JJs, and an XL engine. Otherwise, it will have less firepower than a Firestarter.


You keep talking about considering both sides, but you don't seem to do so. You are focusing on literally one variant, of one mech, or the Blackjack, and using that as a general argument.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 22 February 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

I'm sorry, did you say the SHC is worse than the Blackjack? The SHC that can mount a Gauss rifle without dying to ST loss, while the BJ has to mount an XL engine to even be viable?

Don't get me wrong, the SHC could use a smaller engine, but it is not worse than the BJ by any stretch. Especially when considering the fact that it will have the range and speed advantage, to dictate how the fight goes.


The Blackjack can win in short range with the AC 20 build. That build requires an XL engine, pop the ST, you pop the BJ. Especially now that the BJ is no longer as tanky as it used to be (which I completely support, it was too tanky). THe BJ-1X can move faster, without JJs, and an XL engine. Otherwise, it will have less firepower than a Firestarter.


You keep talking about considering both sides, but you don't seem to do so. You are focusing on literally one variant, of one mech, or the Blackjack, and using that as a general argument.

Im sorry, did you just DISPUTE that the BlackJack is better than the SadCat?

Lol, clearly doesnt actually drive a Shadow Cat ever. Its not just about what you read in smurfies - the SadCat (while INCREDIBLY fun to drive, especially now with MASC buffs) simply doesnt have a loadout that puts out any form of DPS at ranges past 250m, and it doesnt have the structure or armour it needs to survive at that range.

[IraqiWalker]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 February 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

Im sorry, did you just DISPUTE that the BlackJack is better than the SadCat?

Lol, clearly doesnt actually drive a Shadow Cat ever. Its not just about what you read in smurfies - the SadCat (while INCREDIBLY fun to drive, especially now with MASC buffs) simply doesnt have a loadout that puts out any form of DPS at ranges past 250m, and it doesnt have the structure or armour it needs to survive at that range.

I simply stated that the SHC is not worse than the BJ-1. Especially if you want to bring up ranges past 250 meters. The BJ-1 is using either AC 2s, or lasers, at those ranges. Both are things the SHC can compete with, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the SHC can run a 3x ERLL configuration for solid long range damage, or dead side the left section and run 2 LPLs in the right section, for great medium-long range damage.

Here, let me show you:

SHC-A 3xERLL

SHC-A 2xLPL

That's solid damage at ranges beyond 600 meters. The 3xLPL build on the BJ-1X (or BJ-3) is dealing roughly 16.5 damage at 600 meters, while the SHC is dealing 26. Factor in that the SHC can sacrifice an entire side of it's mech to protect itself, and keep fighting, without losing firepower, while the BJ-1X/3 will die as soon as one side torso is gone, or put in a STD 180 to move at 69.7 Kph, and not die to ST loss, and carry 1 heatsink less than the XL build. Add all of that, and you have two mechs that are almost on equal footing. Especially when you consider the heat efficiencies on those mechs, (the 3xERLL build on the SHC is less efficient than the 3 LPL build on the BJ, but it does have more than double the range, and you can make it more efficient by firing 2, then 1, though the burn time becomes a problem. The 2 ER-LPL build is far superior to both the 3xERLL, and the 3LPL builds, on the SHC, and the BJ respectively).

The problem is with how people are playing them, I keep seeing Shadowcat pilots that try to joust with them, or brawl.

This isn't Medieval Times, or a Renaissance Fair, you have MASC, use it, flank, and be mobile, hit from range, and stay at range. Don't brawl unless you're crazy, or confident. Use ERLLs, ERLPLs, or Gauss Rifles. The SHC is hardpoint starved, has too much tonnage dedicated to MASC, and JJs, and could use a different engine, but it is still a solid performer.

Yes, it's no 50+ point alpha stormcrow, but neither is the BJ.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 February 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 23 February 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

I simply stated that the SHC is not worse than the BJ-1. Especially if you want to bring up ranges past 250 meters. The BJ-1 is using either AC 2s, or lasers, at those ranges. Both are things the SHC can compete with, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the SHC can run a 3x ERLL configuration for solid long range damage, or dead side the left section and run 2 LPLs in the right section, for great medium-long range damage.

Here, let me show you:

SHC-A 3xERLL

SHC-A 2xLPL

That's solid damage at ranges beyond 600 meters. The 3xLPL build on the BJ-1X (or BJ-3) is dealing roughly 16.5 damage at 600 meters, while the SHC is dealing 26. Factor in that the SHC can sacrifice an entire side of it's mech to protect itself, and keep fighting, without losing firepower, while the BJ-1X/3 will die as soon as one side torso is gone, or put in a STD 180 to move at 69.7 Kph, and not die to ST loss, and carry 1 heatsink less than the XL build. Add all of that, and you have two mechs that are almost on equal footing. Especially when you consider the heat efficiencies on those mechs, (the 3xERLL build on the SHC is less efficient than the 3 LPL build on the BJ, but it does have more than double the range, and you can make it more efficient by firing 2, then 1, though the burn time becomes a problem. The 2 ER-LPL build is far superior to both the 3xERLL, and the 3LPL builds, on the SHC, and the BJ respectively).

The problem is with how people are playing them, I keep seeing Shadowcat pilots that try to joust with them, or brawl.

This isn't Medieval Times, or a Renaissance Fair, you have MASC, use it, flank, and be mobile, hit from range, and stay at range. Don't brawl unless you're crazy, or confident. Use ERLLs, ERLPLs, or Gauss Rifles. The SHC is hardpoint starved, has too much tonnage dedicated to MASC, and JJs, and could use a different engine, but it is still a solid performer.

Yes, it's no 50+ point alpha stormcrow, but neither is the BJ.

The Scat is one of my favourite mechs and i know damn well how to play it. 3xERLL is a BAD loadout btw, ERLLs are crap, and that is no less hot than 2xERPPC, while being much worse at snapshooting or poptarting, and no more dmg (if you can hold 2+ seconds of beam onto one component then.. your target is asleep, so its 33 spread dmg vs 30).

I didnt realise you were talking about the BJ-1, i dont have that one. Try the BJ-3. or the 1X. both of the crap all over the scat from an immense height.

[Lily from animove]

IraqiWalker, on 23 February 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

SHC stuff

Well the issue is people try to bring a horse to the car race and complain it isn't working. Too many pilots want to bend chassis for their playstyle instead of trying to use the chassis for what it is suited. Undertsanding what the Mech is good in and using it that way is how to find the road to success. But many pilots lack this. But can't balme them many paly the game for fun and do not care about the mechanics. I don't play the game serious, yet I still care about the mechanics. But when you mix seriousness + mechanics you will end very quickly with the current Meta.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 February 2016 - 07:37 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 February 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

The Scat is one of my favourite mechs and i know damn well how to play it. 3xERLL is a BAD loadout btw, ERLLs are crap, and that is no less hot than 2xERPPC, while being much worse at snapshooting or poptarting, and no more dmg (if you can hold 2+ seconds of beam onto one component then.. your target is asleep, so its 33 spread dmg vs 30).

I didnt realise you were talking about the BJ-1, i dont have that one. Try the BJ-3. or the 1X. both of the crap all over the scat from an immense height.

Sorry, I sometimes use BJ-1 as a generalization for all Blackjacks. Trust me, the 1X is near and dea to my heart (though I prefer to run it with 6 MLs, and 2 MPLs). I did mention the 3, and 1X later in my post. I was accounting for their quirks with those numbers, btw.

Lily from animove, on 23 February 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Well the issue is people try to bring a horse to the car race and complain it isn't working. Too many pilots want to bend chassis for their playstyle instead of trying to use the chassis for what it is suited. Undertsanding what the Mech is good in and using it that way is how to find the road to success. But many pilots lack this. But can't balme them many paly the game for fun and do not care about the mechanics. I don't play the game serious, yet I still care about the mechanics. But when you mix seriousness + mechanics you will end very quickly with the current Meta.

QFT

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 February 2016 - 11:12 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 23 February 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

Sorry, I sometimes use BJ-1 as a generalization for all Blackjacks. Trust me, the 1X is near and dea to my heart (though I prefer to run it with 6 MLs, and 2 MPLs). I did mention the 3, and 1X later in my post. I was accounting for their quirks with those numbers, btw.





QFT

You realise the BJ-3 can fire 2xERPPC, with an 1800m/s velocity and a 972 optimal range SIX times back to back on a cold map without shutting down? The Scat can fire TWO double PPC shots before shutting down. If you equip the BJ-3 with 2xPPC and 4xSL/2xML it is basically not possible to overheat using only the PPCs.

Scat is faster, jumps better and has ECM and MASC, so it shouldnt be quite as cold as the BJ, but the current disparity is just too much. Scatman needs some energy heat gen buffs, or maybe some ammo buffs so its possible to use the Gauss build without being capped at 450 dmg.

[Russhuster]

that is not only a problem for the SadCat the heat nerfing and general heat penalties ALL Clan tech has in addition with the december heat sink nerfing of all double heatsinks to single heat sink capacity( as a matter of fact even worse capacity considering the whole piture) this matter is affecting quite a row of Mechs beginning with Misses Lynx, and the ice ferret continuing over mechs like the Nova or the Maddog and ending at mechs like Summoner, Gargoyle and EXEcutioner

all these are literally forced to run mostly energy builds as the puny load tonnage is denieing most of these chassis suitable AC builds

[Widowmaker1981]

Russhuster, on 24 February 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

that is not only a problem for the SadCat the heat nerfing and general heat penalties ALL Clan tech has in addition with the december heat sink nerfing of all double heatsinks to single heat sink capacity( as a matter of fact even worse capacity considering the whole piture) this matter is affecting quite a row of Mechs beginning with Misses Lynx, and the ice ferret continuing over mechs like the Nova or the Maddog and ending at mechs like Summoner, Gargoyle and EXEcutioner

all these are literally forced to run mostly energy builds as the puny load tonnage is denieing most of these chassis suitable AC builds

The heatsink capacity nerf is really, really not a thing to worry about dude.

a 28 heatsink Warhawk drops from 90.24 cap to 83.76 cap, which is really very little loss (a single ERML worth of heat cap), and at the same time its dissipation got buffed from 5.198 h/s to 5.405 h/s. Its a minor nerf overall, and really not very noticeable - and thats on the mech most affected, its even less noticeable on mechs with fewer DHS. Sadcat builds lost something like 2-3 heatcap at most.

[Russhuster]

it is though a part of the problem
when youre using very hot technology and you get tremendous hardcoded heat penaltys and earlier appiling ghostheat that is in summa way higher than the IS ghostheat is every tiny bit of heat containing capacity gets important

matter of factly that nerf is the difference betwen one maybe two salvos and heat shutdown and in a clan mech heat shutdown means death

As many Clan mechs are crippled by braindead hardcoded inbuilds, fix Endo and FFB in addition with a terrible puny loading capacity the player has not the opportunity to build some bunch of heatsinks in the mech
That heat nerf did cost most builds at least one or two lasers or pulse lasers just to cope with the dead nerfed heat ineffectivity

edit:
That puny loading capacity is also narrowing, or even denieing in some cases the possibility to avoid ultra hot energy weapons by using AC or UAC s
everyone is complaining that laser vomit is the sight number one
1st
the overquirking is leading to boating these on IS side ( Range, cooldown and heat quirks are almost forcing the players to use that weapons)
2nd
the extremely tiny load capacity is forcing the usage of energy weapons matter of factly on many chassis
Mechs like the MistLynx, summoner, ferret or the nova can get idiotic quirks all they want,... they wont fix the problem of to little tonnage combined with hardcoded inbuilds and also hardcoded endo FFB

Edited by Russhuster, 24 February 2016 - 06:52 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

You realise the BJ-3 can fire 2xERPPC, with an 1800m/s velocity and a 972 optimal range SIX times back to back on a cold map without shutting down? The Scat can fire TWO double PPC shots before shutting down. If you equip the BJ-3 with 2xPPC and 4xSL/2xML it is basically not possible to overheat using only the PPCs.

Scat is faster, jumps better and has ECM and MASC, so it shouldnt be quite as cold as the BJ, but the current disparity is just too much. Scatman needs some energy heat gen buffs, or maybe some ammo buffs so its possible to use the Gauss build without being capped at 450 dmg.

I do realize that, and I do believe the Shadowcat needs some help, but this is simply a tradeoff in my opinion. One of them is more mobile, and survivable, and the other can hit harder, but is more fragile.

Russhuster, on 24 February 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

that is not only a problem for the SadCat the heat nerfing and general heat penalties ALL Clan tech has in addition with the december heat sink nerfing of all double heatsinks to single heat sink capacity( as a matter of fact even worse capacity considering the whole piture) this matter is affecting quite a row of Mechs beginning with Misses Lynx, and the ice ferret continuing over mechs like the Nova or the Maddog and ending at mechs like Summoner, Gargoyle and EXEcutioner

all these are literally forced to run mostly energy builds as the puny load tonnage is denieing most of these chassis suitable AC builds

We already established that you're really, factually wrong about the heatsink nerf.

Widowmaker1981, on 24 February 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

The heatsink capacity nerf is really, really not a thing to worry about dude.

a 28 heatsink Warhawk drops from 90.24 cap to 83.76 cap, which is really very little loss (a single ERML worth of heat cap), and at the same time its dissipation got buffed from 5.198 h/s to 5.405 h/s. Its a minor nerf overall, and really not very noticeable - and thats on the mech most affected, its even less noticeable on mechs with fewer DHS. Sadcat builds lost something like 2-3 heatcap at most.

Thank you.

[Crockdaddy]

I tried reading this I really did.

tl:dr
Direwolves are awesome! Still situational and require a team. Solo Dire play sucks generally. This has been a deep scientifically measured and thoughtful post.

Thank you!