83 replies to this topic

[B0oN]

Show me on the paperdoll where the ACH touched you ...






Yes, they are nasty little buggers, we all got it now .
Now get back in that mech of yours and re-try .

[Marodeur]

Mcgral18, on 01 November 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

And obligatory:

This Video Shows only the hit boxes of a standing cheetah. I think most of you know that a moving cheetah mostly doesn't register the full damage of your weapons... Even if you are sure that you hit him with your lasers the whole time! It is obvious that there is something wrong with its hit boxes. But the wolfhound has the same problem with the hit boxes in my impression... But it is not so dangerous like a cheetah, so in comparison it is not that worse to fight the wolfhound. Also the crab registers damage very bad and is very tanky for its tonnage, but same like with the wolfhound... It is not very dangerous, so it is still kind of "ok".
I mean there must be a reason that when A cheetah is running around as last mech and 6 mechs shooting at him the whole time and it still takes long time to take him down. And if you are in the cockpit view of the cheetah you hear the whole time the sound of the hitting lasers, but the ragdoll turns his color very slowly to red.
It is so far, that I sometimes especially run for cheetah, even if there is a more promising target. And I am always very satisfied if I take down one of them.... Because it is so tanky.

Edited by Marodeur, 03 November 2015 - 06:05 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Lugh, on 03 November 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

So much learn to aim and learn you weapons posts in this thread.

1) PPCs SUCK at HitReg right now, I've seen them warp through DIREWOLVES without doing damage.
2) IS PPCs don't do damage under 90m (just fyi) and if you are fighting an ACH chances are the server thought you were under 90m when it did it's damage calculation.
3) I've said it before, and i'll say it again, LEARN TO AIM.

When shots connect and do no (or at least not the proper) damage, people need to aim.

Ok...

[Mcgral18]

Marodeur, on 03 November 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

This Video Shows only the hit boxes of a standing cheetah. I think most of you know that a moving cheetah mostly doesn't register the full damage of your weapons... Even if you are sure that you hit him with your lasers the whole time! It is obvious that there is something wrong with its hit boxes. But the wolfhound has the same problem with the hit boxes in my impression... But it is not so dangerous like a cheetah, so in comparison it is not that worse to fight the wolfhound. Also the crab registers damage very bad and is very tanky for its tonnage, but same like with the wolfhound... It is not very dangerous, so it is still kind of "ok".
I mean there must be a reason that when A cheetah is running around as last mech and 6 mechs shooting at him the whole time and it still takes long time to take him down. And if you are in the cockpit view of the cheetah you hear the whole time the sound of the hitting lasers, but the ragdoll turns his color very slowly to red.
It is so far, that I sometimes especially run for cheetah, even if there is a more promising target. And I am always very satisfied if I take down one of them.... Because it is so tanky.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=BLZgQfx9kAE

Look at that...when you shoot them they die.


Another test with people shooting each other with Flamers is still needed to test hitreg on a calculation stressed server, but it's clear when you actually hit the cheetah, they take damage with a non stressed server.
People just tend to miss or get partial burns.

[FupDup]

Marodeur, on 03 November 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

This Video Shows only the hit boxes of a standing cheetah. I think most of you know that a moving cheetah mostly doesn't register the full damage of your weapons... Even if you are sure that you hit him with your lasers the whole time! It is obvious that there is something wrong with its hit boxes. But the wolfhound has the same problem with the hit boxes in my impression... But it is not so dangerous like a cheetah, so in comparison it is not that worse to fight the wolfhound. Also the crab registers damage very bad and is very tanky for its tonnage, but same like with the wolfhound... It is not very dangerous, so it is still kind of "ok".
I mean there must be a reason that when A cheetah is running around as last mech and 6 mechs shooting at him the whole time and it still takes long time to take him down. And if you are in the cockpit view of the cheetah you hear the whole time the sound of the hitting lasers, but the ragdoll turns his color very slowly to red.
It is so far, that I sometimes especially run for cheetah, even if there is a more promising target. And I am always very satisfied if I take down one of them.... Because it is so tanky.

A mech's hitboxes don't magically change shape or size when a mech is moving. They're the same, just in different (changing) positions.

If your issue only occurs when the mech is moving, that means that THE ISSUE IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN HITBOXES. ...Like, I dunno, maybe hit registration itself?

[Torgun]

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

A mech's hitboxes don't magically change shape or size when a mech is moving. They're the same, just in different (changing) positions.

If your issue only occurs when the mech is moving, that means that THE ISSUE IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN HITBOXES. ...Like, I dunno, maybe hit registration itself?

Really small hitboxes, high speeds and HSR bound to have a margin of error that probably is too large to handle such small hitboxes? Overall something does seem to be off either way.

[C E Dwyer]

Random Carnage, on 02 November 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

The man speaks the truth...

I left his name visible because he played like a champ and deserves the credit, but even so... dem cheetahs...hmm...

How apt, that 999 happens to be the dial code for the emergency services in the U.K

[Aresye]

Marodeur, on 03 November 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

This Video Shows only the hit boxes of a standing cheetah. I think most of you know that a moving cheetah mostly doesn't register the full damage of your weapons... Even if you are sure that you hit him with your lasers the whole time! It is obvious that there is something wrong with its hit boxes. But the wolfhound has the same problem with the hit boxes in my impression...

Holy &*^% dude, are you serious?

Did it even occur as a fleeting thought that maybe...just MAYBE...the problems are HSR, and not automatically the hitboxes of a mech?

[Murphy7]

If a rising tide raises all ships, it is certainly also true that improved hit registration kills all lights.

The trouble is that PGI seems to get a fix in for hit registration every few months, but the fix wears off in a few days.

For my money, by the way, I still think the FS9-A or FS9-S will beat most ACH's, pilot skill being similar.
Poor Jenners could really use some of the magic that Cheetahs, Firestarters, and Spiders have enjoyed.

[pwnface]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the hitboxes on an ACH though they are quite good. To the people that are saying "just aim better" as a response, I think a lot of players don't really have a harder time hitting the ACH compared to other light mechs. The ACH is just disproportionately difficult to kill when compared to other light mechs. It has the awesome clan XL engine and additional structure quirks for the legs while having similar firepower to a FS9.

Why is it more difficult to leg a 30t mech than a 35t mech? This makes absolutely no sense to me.
57 damage to take 1 leg off an arctic cheetah vs 48 on a firestarter?

[mogs01gt]

Mcgral18, on 03 November 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=BLZgQfx9kAE

Look at that...when you shoot them they die.

Another test with people shooting each other with Flamers is still needed to test hitreg on a calculation stressed server, but it's clear when you actually hit the cheetah, they take damage with a non stressed server.
People just tend to miss or get partial burns.

LMAO what a joke of a video! First time I have ever seen a ACH pilot stay front of a mech.....

Edited by mogs01gt, 03 November 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[FupDup]

mogs01gt, on 03 November 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

First time I have ever seen a ACH pilot stayin front of a mech.....

The Wubshee's big engine allowed it to keep the Hankyu in its front firing arc for most of that clip.

[mogs01gt]

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

The Wubshee's big engine allowed it to keep the Hankyu in its front firing arc for most of that clip.

No the **** ACH pilot using JJ's to turn back into the line of fire allowed the legs to get shot off....

Edited by mogs01gt, 03 November 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[pwnface]

I promise you can't stay behind a 400xl Banshee in an arctic cheetah. Light mechs, save maybe a locust, aren't fast enough.

The ACH is piloting rather poorly though. I don't think the point was whether the ACH could/should win but rather testing how the ACH actually takes damage in a fight. Still took 6x 51pt alphas to take off both legs though, how many assault mechs can survive 300 damage of laser vomit?

Edited by pwnface, 03 November 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 03 November 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

I promise you can't stay behind a 400xl Banshee in an arctic cheetah. Light mechs, save maybe a locust, aren't fast enough.

The ACH is piloting rather poorly though. I don't think the point was whether the ACH could/should win but rather testing how the ACH actually takes damage in a fight. Still took 6x 51pt alphas to take off both legs though, how many assault mechs can survive 300 damage of laser vomit?

Only 3 solid burns, actually, with 3 graze-misses.

mogs01gt, on 03 November 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

LMAO what a joke of a video! First time I have ever seen a ACH pilot stay front of a mech.....

mogs01gt, on 03 November 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

No the **** ACH pilot using JJ's to turn back into the line of fire allowed the legs to get shot off....

I see we've found another volunteer.


Also note the point of the test was to see how invulnerable a Cheetah running and jumping was...not very.
Stress test has yet to be done, overloading the server with hitscan calculations in a circle around the duel.

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 November 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

I wouldnt say the problem with solely with the ACH, though there are certainly some discrepancies. Rather, the problem is damage calculation as a whole in the game coding.

To give an example: I've emptied 6 alternating salvos of 4 CSplas and 4 CMplas into the front and back of a Blackjack at 150ish closing to within 40 meters that had cherry red CT Internals front and back. The only effort he made to 'spread' the damage was twist his torso roughly 20-30 degrees left and right off center rapidly, resulting in him taking only about 30 damage out of 220, which was registered to both arms (which never, at any point, visually blocked my weapons' line of sight to his CT) and both side torsos while his CT took no damage whatsoever.

The same exact thing happened with a Summoner in a previous game, a Dire Wolf's side torso, Timber's CT, Wolverine's CT, Battlemaster's CT and a BK's side torso. The problem becomes very noticeable when rapid movement of any kind is involved: torso twisting, distance changes, height differences (from falling or using Jump Jets), etc. This game engine's ability to accurately measure, record and convey damage deteriorates significantly as the severity of movement increases--They share a near direct proportional relationship.

Which leads to the realization that instant pinpoint convergence is and always has been a myth in this game because:

Two targets closing distance with one another from say 500 meters to 100 in roughly 6 seconds, alphaing as they go, all things considered, you could have your reticle dead on their CT but your weapons are converging a full second or more behind the actual position of your target so they're going to impact the side torsos despite aiming for the CT. To actually hit the CT in this scenario, you'd have to put the crosshairs on their left torso and fire the weapons on the left side of your mech then rinse and repeat right side to right side. This happens all day every day. If Instant convergence were real in this game then angle, distance and speeds wouldnt matter. They do.

Now that we've established instant convergence is false, consider how the actual geometry of Mechs might affect damage registration in both dealing and taking it:

Example:

Mechs with wide torsos or have far off-center arms are worse at dealing accurate damage the closer they are to their target, coupled with rapid changes in distance.

As for comparing the ACH to the FS9, the comparison favors the ACH.
The ACH has:

1. Equal/better damage
2. Longer range
3. Produce less/same heat per alpha

Because Clan weapons vs. IS weapons; Same damage payload for 3 less tons. Means more JJs and ECM.

That's in a direct build comparison. You can modify the FS9 to match JJ counts or have more heat sinks, but you're going to lose damage and engine size to do it.

[pwnface]

DrxAbstract, on 03 November 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

snip

let's not forget clan xl and stronger legs when comparing ach to fs9 as well. The only advantage the fs9 has is slightly shorter beam duration.

[mogs01gt]

Mcgral18, on 03 November 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

Stress test has yet to be done, overloading the server with hitscan calculations in a circle around the dual.

This is where the problem is. Same issue as SRMs.

[Big Bertha 00]

Well done, OP. This gave me a good laugh. Especially the Jenner hitbox diagram. It wouldn't be so funny if there wasn't an element of truth to it.

[Marodeur]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 November 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Holy &*^% dude, are you serious?

Did it even occur as a fleeting thought that maybe...just MAYBE...the problems are HSR, and not automatically the hitboxes of a mech?

Man,
of course it can be something with HSR and other stuff. But at the end you shoot at the mech end when the HSR doesn't work properly and/or the hit boxes(or whatever), then the hit boxes don't register damage. And when something like that happens to a certain mech, then I think the hit boxes have something to do with it. So call it like you want, but the damage registration is very bad on the cheetah, and I think most of you know that. And I don't say that because it is a clan mech. I also said that I have the same impression with bad hit reg on the wolfhound and crab. So be cool and calm down, OK?

Edited by Marodeur, 04 November 2015 - 06:09 AM.