10 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

This may have been discussed elsewhere and this may not be the proper forum for this post:

I think there needs to be some way of giving points to players who actively provide effective suppressing fire. I've been in many games where I have seen someone (often 2) who either by accident or design, have kept many enemy mechs in hiding by laying down a near constant barrage of PPC bolts, missles, etc. but not hitting much of anything while providing an opportunity for the rest of us to go behind the enemy force and destroy them. We get a flanking bonus (or more) while the suppressors get nothing but a low score for not doing a lot of damage.

On the one hand you don't want to reward crappy aim (which I can see some asserting), on the other hand any one with an ounce of awareness has probably seen or experienced this or is at least theoretically aware of the value of suppression fire. It does have value, even in a game.

I know nothing about programming or game dynamics, and perhaps such a award scheme is not possible. My impulse thought is to try and give a small bonus to the rest of ones team every time a flanking bonus is awarded to an individual. Best I can think of.

Anyone have ideas? Again probably not doable but still...

[rolly]

+1 Like, yes I agree with the OP on this one.
During a fire fight when I know someone is lurking I will often use my LL or PPC's and barrage that position while the team advances.

If say a target mech reverses behind cover from its forward advance and forces it to lose lock on a target, it may be worth while to give a suppressing fire bonus.

[gloowa]

rolly, on 02 November 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

+1 Like, yes I agree with the OP on this one.
During a fire fight when I know someone is lurking I will often use my LL or PPC's and barrage that position while the team advances.

If say a target mech reverses behind cover from its forward advance and forces it to lose lock on a target, it may be worth while to give a suppressing fire bonus.

As soon as you provide algorithm that can distingush between suppresed mech hiding behind cover, and it's target hiding behind cover PGI will implement it. And give you a medal. And nobel prize.

[Night Thastus]

gloowa, on 02 November 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

As soon as you provide algorithm that can distingush between suppresed mech hiding behind cover, and it's target hiding behind cover PGI will implement it. And give you a medal. And nobel prize.

Hate to say it, but he's right. It would be awesome in theory, but it's tough as hell to make a way to determine if fire is supressive fire, bad aim, stray shots, team-mates fire, etc, etc, etc.

You could say "Well, if this player is being shot, but isn't moving much/isn't shooting then the player shooting at them gets supressive fire bonus".

But then you could just shoot *around* an AFK person to farm points.

I don't know. I don't think there's a way to make it work.

[Bud Crue]

Kinda what I figured. Alas, There are some folks out there that are really good at this sort of thing. I've done it in teams but seeing it in puglandia is really something because these folks are "sacrificing" their stats, scores, etc. so the rest of us have a better chance at winning. Just think they ought to get something for the effort. Hopefully the gaming gods reward their altruistic play.

[rolly]

gloowa, on 02 November 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

As soon as you provide algorithm that can distingush between suppresed mech hiding behind cover, and it's target hiding behind cover PGI will implement it. And give you a medal. And nobel prize.

I don't do algorithms. But for starters as I stated before...

Target mech is shooting at ally mechs and has lock. Suppressing mech fires, may or may not hit.
Target mech reverses out and loses lock. Suppression achieved.

The key here is the Target mech reverses from its forward motion (since there is no duck/prone coded in) and seeks cover.
By doing so naturally loses LOS and breaks lock. Suppression doesn't have hit or not, even people with bad aim can suppress. Again it doesn't have to be a huge bonus.

As for farming - people already do farm in a myriad of ways. The gains from this would small. Conversely you can make it so that only barrage weapons counts. Ie. PPC or lobbed LRMs (that do not have a lock)

[Karl Streiger]

There is a kind of suppressing rating: called hit & run - dealing damage to a target - target go for cover - no damage received

On the other hand suppressing only works vs "newbs" - because those are the only guys that pop out of cover at the same place ever and ever again. There are miriads of cover to get into a different position so all your suppression doesn't do anything good - we are talking about Mechs not infantry

the algo you suggested will fire all the time when your target losses another target from lock.

There are couple of things that should be rewarded (armor damage taken for example)


On the other hand i really want to have a much better "ranking" for players rather than pure damage.
And your base idea is that even damage not dealt can help to win the fight.
(Happens from time to time - when new players throw missiles at other players that get fixed in a position - and can be scrapped by a brawler)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 November 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[rolly]

Karl Streiger, on 02 November 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

On the other hand suppressing only works vs "newbs" - because those are the only guys that pop out of cover at the same place ever and ever again. There are miriads of cover to get into a different position so all your suppression doesn't do anything good - we are talking about Mechs not infantry

On the other hand i really want to have a much better "ranking" for players rather than pure damage.
And your base idea is that even damage not dealt can help to win the fight.
(Happens from time to time - when new players throw missiles at other players that get fixed in a position - and can be scrapped by a brawler)

As you said yourself, its more than just damage that wins games.
As for "suppression only working only on newbs". Fire suppression is one of the basic tenet of warfare. Whether its mechs, infantry, tanks or ships, suppression of enemy targets happens. If to give the brawler mechs to close, time to flank or even to cover a destroyers torpedo attack.

If that is the case with "hit and run" its a misnomer then.

[Vellron2005]

As part of my Star training, my Star Commander taught the whole Blaid Pack star how to "supress" the enemy. Its a very effective military strategy, which I tend to employ where even and when ever possible.

A suppressed enemy can't fight effectively, and is open to flanking, wasting time until the assaults or other forms of reinforcements get there and is generally screwed.

A few days back, I saw a guy in a Battlemaster using his LRM's and 2 large lasers to hold back 5 mechs from a good spot on a high hill on Alpine - alone. Our team flanked them and crushed them.

I think acts like that definitely deserve a reward equal to or more than the flanking reward or protected medium reward..

Suppressing is a thing..

[Makenzie71]

I think finding a way to autonomously give points for something like suppressing fire would be rather difficult...but we could make a rep system inside the game, I think. It would be player controlled so no need to develop an algorithm to identify the acts.

Makenzie71, on 02 November 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

I've been mulling this over in light of how secondary roles, which are required for proper team play, do not receive any credit. In game, you are rewarded first by wins/loss of the total match, then by damage done. You get minimal points for anything else. So the guy who ran and kept caps up while everyone else fought baddies off gets no credit, while someone who made a poor left turn and managed to get one alpha off before being utterly dished will probably get at least in the triple digits.

I would think of it as a karma system. This has been the model I've been rolling around in my head:

If someone does good...they keep caps up, someone gets your back in a pinch, someone gets you a good spot and lets you bring some serious rain in...etc...you like what this person has done, you give them a little upvote. They get an extra point for that match.

Points accumulate and carry to each match, up to a set cap...something like 100 or 150. Points are account bound. You get a couple points for suppressing fire long enough to allow your fatties to get into a good place and make a good racket...well, you get a couple points boost on your next match.

There will be bonus points for certain things. Like a win under your command...lance commands get 2pts, company commands get 4. Doing 750+ damage in invasion/resistance gets a point. Etc.

You lose points by a team loss. Your team loses, you lose a point.

I've been pondering allowing a negative vote but there's too many people out there who would make a mistake, die early, and punish the team by slashing everyone before dc'ing. Maybe allow voting people down, but on a timer...once per 3 minutes or something. I'm not sure how that would work best.

But I do think there should be a means to reward people who thoroughly support the team, but do so in a way that gets them no glory. I want the glory of the damage and kills I accomplished, but I couldn't do it without that guy behind me keeping me under ECM and covering my ass.

[Karl Streiger]

I have thought about it - and Vellron brought a perfect example.

Vellron2005, on 03 November 2015 - 04:57 AM, said:

As part of my Star training, my Star Commander taught the whole Blaid Pack star how to "supress" the enemy. Its a very effective military strategy, which I tend to employ where even and when ever possible.

A suppressed enemy can't fight effectively, and is open to flanking, wasting time until the assaults or other forms of reinforcements get there and is generally screwed.

A few days back, I saw a guy in a Battlemaster using his LRM's and 2 large lasers to hold back 5 mechs from a good spot on a high hill on Alpine - alone. Our team flanked them and crushed them.

I think acts like that definitely deserve a reward equal to or more than the flanking reward or protected medium reward..

Suppressing is a thing..

only because people tend to play other games - i have seen such stupid thins in WoT and of course i also did use it in MWO.
People that got hit did dive for the cover - leaving their mates out to dry - so when you have say 2 PPCs and 1 Gauss you can rumble hit 3 targets - and when they break cover again your heat is low and your weapons reloaded.

Reason is you have armor - and you should have the awarenes to see what hit you- the only time suppression works is only when you don't know what hit you and/or there are multiple targets shooting at you - but if multiple targets shoot at you their firepower is missing in a different position - so its not you who suppresses its the guy you shooting at that suppresses you.

So in words suppression and BattleMechs is not working - if it works only because the other guy don't have any clue what he is doing.