51 replies to this topic

[Commander A9]

PTS 3 hasn't even gone live, and already I'm concerned.

Based on the information listed on this announcement.

https://mwomercs.com...rebalance-pts-3

Based on what I'm reading...

I'm seeing alot of negative adjustments to a mech's ability to dissipate its heat. Ghost heat is bad enough without having to contend with poor heat dissipation capacity, is it not?

I'm also seeing an increase in max range to Inner Sphere lasers...don't they get enough benefits with laser ranges already?

I'm also seeing a decrease in Clan Double Heat Sinks' capacity to dissipate heat...why? Why are we continually nerfing Clan mechs to the ground? This has got to stop.

I'm also reading that IS Medium PUlse Lasers will have the same heat scale as regular lasers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't pulse lasers supposed to generate more heat than regular lasers as a trade-off for doing more damage

[Wintersdark]

Commander A9, on 03 November 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

PTS 3 hasn't even gone live, and already I'm concerned.

Based on the information listed on this announcement.

https://mwomercs.com...rebalance-pts-3

Based on what I'm reading...

I'm seeing alot of negative adjustments to a mech's ability to dissipate its heat. Ghost heat is bad enough without having to contend with poor heat dissipation capacity, is it not?

No. Build cooler, or fire slower. Play smarter. I'd prefer lower heat capacity, but dissipation is just as good. Got a hot build (laser vomit, maybe?) then you're in danger if a cool running brawler pushes in close.

You know what helps with heat? Ballistics.

Quote

I'm also seeing an increase in max range to Inner Sphere lasers...don't they get enough benefits with laser ranges already?

There are no weapon quirks in the PTS. IS Lasers have dramatically shorter ranges than Clan lasers.

Quote

I'm also seeing a decrease in Clan Double Heat Sinks' capacity to dissipate heat...why? Why are we continually nerfing Clan mechs to the ground? This has got to stop.

Because (remember: There are no quirks here) Clan mechs are VASTLY superior to unquirked IS mechs. They need to be closer in balance, so IS mechs don't need huge quirks.

Quote

I'm also reading that IS Medium PUlse Lasers will have the same heat scale as regular lasers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't pulse lasers supposed to generate more heat than regular lasers as a trade-off for doing more damage

Heat Scale = Ghost Heat, not heat per firing. Currently, there is NO ghost heat with IS MPLAS. They have a max of six in the PTS before generating extra heat.

Edited by Wintersdark, 03 November 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I'm VERY happy to see the changes to the Basic Skills. VERY happy. They have an immense impact on chassis, and make it pretty much mandatory for and remotely serious use to buy three mechs and get em all skilled up. With the PTS, the values are a lot smaller, so basics is going to be enough for everything but tensely competitive play where 2.5%'s are going to be important.

This is also a HUGE nerf to assaults and heavies, both of which are currently heavily dependent on skills. No problems there, either. Makes Mediums much more attractive.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 03 November 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

This is also a HUGE nerf to assaults and heavies, both of which are currently heavily dependent on skills. No problems there, either. Makes Mediums much more attractive.

That's not entirely accurate. Durability is what keeps heavies upright.

The speed for most mediums (generally non-Clan or "fat Lights") are usually less than the average Clan Heavy (IS Heavies are the only things that are comparably fair).

The engine rule is still the same, and the quirks on IS mediums are generally torso twist based, but less on accel/decel and turn speed.

The difference isn't that minor unfortunately.

[sycocys]

I wonder if we could get speed tweak dropped way down for testing. It would effectively slow the game's pacing down by up to 10% and possibly reduce some of the nascar/promote more tactical stand offs.

The one thing I'm concerned/think people will freak out about is that it didn't seem to have optimal ranges hard adjust to when you have a target locked. That's what created the "ghost damage" people were complaining about, where you could effectively jump in front of a targeted mech and block the damage if they didn't pick you up as a target right as they were firing.

[gloowa]

Wintersdark, on 03 November 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm VERY happy to see the changes to the Basic Skills. VERY happy.

Indeed. Anything that helps reduce amount of consecutive alphas mech can do is a good thing.

Also, with the torso twist/arms speed reduced, there might be forming a chance of lights being useful again. (instead of being 360MLGnoscope targets for assaults. serisouly, the speed at which some assaults could do a 180 and then 180 again...)

[Rinkata Prime]

I LIKE nerf to skill values. Mechwarrior, thus becomes more a simulator than an arcade in which we are playing now.

[Wintersdark]

gloowa, on 03 November 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Indeed. Anything that helps reduce amount of consecutive alphas mech can do is a good thing.

Also, with the torso twist/arms speed reduced, there might be forming a chance of lights being useful again. (instead of being 360MLGnoscope targets for assaults. serisouly, the speed at which some assaults could do a 180 and then 180 again...)

Yup.

It's amusing, as an assault pilot (and very often a Direwolf pilot) I hear people cry about lights all the time, but I find them laughably easy. It's not possible - that is, it's physically impossible, regardless of skill, to stay out of a mastered DWF with a +10% turn speed side torso, in any light. You can run away, but if you stay close, you cannot stay out of his line of fire if he knows what he's doing (read: isn't bad). At that point, it's just a matter of pegging him with dual gauss, with at close range are effectively hitscan. Trivial.

In a T2 group queue game, was just jumped while alone (I made a stupid mistake, not paying enough attention) in my DWF, by 3 lights and a medium (specifically, 2 ACH, SPD, CDA). Spider, Cicada, and one of the ACH's dead before the last one could bring me down; each one of them oneshot. Not because they were bad, but because 100+ pt alphas wreck lights like nobodies business.

These nerfs will make that a LOT harder. They'll substantially - massively - nerf assault agility, and greatly reduce their ability to continuously dish out massive alphas. Won't stop the dual gauss, but at least they'll have 1.5s longer between blasts.

[l33tworks]

Wintersdark, on 03 November 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

You know what helps with heat? Ballistics.

Except they dont. a Single UAC10 for example is enough to overheat you in the heat of the battle. If you try take more its even worse.

Ballistics are way to hot in MWO. They are meant to be a very minimal heat option.

[Kira Onime]

I wonder when they'll actually focus on the mech rebalance 'cause this 3rd pass so far does nothing to improve current bad mechs.

[Rinkata Prime]

Kira Onime, on 03 November 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

I wonder when they'll actually focus on the mech rebalance 'cause this 3rd pass so far does nothing to improve current bad mechs.

Bad mechs must be bad. Balance between mechs is against Battletech rules.
There are cheap and bad mechs and very expensive and powerfull ones. One Timber Wolf must wipe out entire lance of Inner Sphere heavies - this is a true Battletech. And to balance such monsters there was a "battle value" mechanic - nothing more.

[Kira Onime]

Rinkata Kimiku, on 03 November 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

Bad mechs must be bad. Balance between mechs is against Battletech rules.

If you're being sarcastic, then you're good at it.
If you're serious, then you're incredibly dumb.

[Rinkata Prime]

Kira Onime, on 03 November 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

If you're being sarcastic, then you're good at it.
If you're serious, then you're incredibly dumb.

I am not dumb and I am not sarcastic. You don't understand what Battletech is.

[Kira Onime]

Rinkata Kimiku, on 03 November 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

I am not dumb and I am not sarcastic. You don't understand what Battletech is.

Oh, so you're one of those guys.
No point talking to you about an online PVP game balance.

[Rinkata Prime]

The only thing will compare this "PVP game" as you say to tabletop.
Ability to completely LOSE your mech in battle.
Then you will think twice about installing double heat sinks.
And then all bad and cheap mechs will be a valuable ones.

[Wintersdark]

Rinkata Kimiku, on 03 November 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

The only thing will compare this "PVP game" as you say to tabletop.
Ability to completely LOSE your mech in battle.
Then you will think twice about installing double heat sinks.
And then all bad and cheap mechs will be a valuable ones.

we had R&R, it sucked, because this is a PvP game without a persistent world. What you want MWO to be, it can never be. It doesn't matter if what you want would be good or not, MWO just isn't and cannot be that game.

Still, I'd caution you (uselessly, I know) against picking just one thing that makes the game "Battletech" or not. People love to do that, pick one thing they personally feel is important, and use that to say "this is Battletech/this is just CoD/hawken".

Keep in mind, you can (and many do) play Battletech exactly as we play MWO right now: build forces, and have battles, without any ongoing campaign or permanent loss. That's still Battletech, even if you think they are Having Fun Wrong.



What this IS, however, is an online PvP game. When there is a PvE campaign, we can have loss and everything else in that context. As the game is now, however, that would drive this from a niche game to a ghost town that makes MWLL look crowded.

[Rinkata Prime]

EVE online is a PVP game, and you can fit you ship and make it expensive as much as u want and lost this ship in battle and this is cool.
Why not in MWO? It will fix so much problems in the game including rude balance and strange mech quircks.
Yes it require balance to economy.
But why balancing mechs?
Balance between mechs = making all mechs equal = this is crap.
Why the hell all 60 ton mechs must be equal? For what reason I must buy another 60 ton mech if I have one already?

Edited by Rinkata Kimiku, 03 November 2015 - 09:35 PM.

[Wintersdark]

l33tworks, on 03 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Except they dont. a Single UAC10 for example is enough to overheat you in the heat of the battle. If you try take more its even worse.

Ballistics are way to hot in MWO. They are meant to be a very minimal heat option.

They are too hot, but that statement is ridiculous.

AC10: 4dps, 1.2 hps, 3.33dph
Large Laser: 2.12dps, 1.65hps, 1.29dph

An ac10 converts heat to damage 2.58 times more efficiently than a large laser.

CAC10 is 5 damage per heat, with a CUAC10 at 3.33 like the AC10.

Clan lasers are, excepting the smalls, all roughly 1.0 to 1.3 damage per heat.

Gauss is gauss.


Even non-gauss ballistics are vastly more heat efficient than lasers.

[Wintersdark]

Rinkata Kimiku, on 03 November 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

EVE online is a PVP game, and you can fit you ship and make it expensive as much as u want and lost this ship in battle and this is cool.
Why not in MWO? It will fix so much problems in the game including rude balance and strange mech quircks.

can you not see the fundamental difference between Eve and MWO? They are totally different games.

MWO is essentially an arena combat game. There is nothing else. Eve has a vast persistent universe with countless non-combat activities and a large degree of control over the combat you do get into. It's entirely possible to play a fulfilling career in ever without ever experiencing any significant amount of risk.

Apples and oranges. Sure, you can argue that MWO should have a full persistent universe (CW isn't that), and all that other eve stuff, but then you're just wish listing. That's simply not going to happen.

[Rinkata Prime]

Wintersdark, on 03 November 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

can you not see the fundamental difference between Eve and MWO? They are totally different games.

MWO is essentially an arena combat game. There is nothing else. Eve has a vast persistent universe with countless non-combat activities and a large degree of control over the combat you do get into. It's entirely possible to play a fulfilling career in ever without ever experiencing any significant amount of risk.

Apples and oranges. Sure, you can argue that MWO should have a full persistent universe (CW isn't that), and all that other eve stuff, but then you're just wish listing. That's simply not going to happen.

You compare wrong things. We have an arena, EVE have a planetary system where group of ships meet each other.
In both ways those with better tactics will win the battle. Why not?
Unlike EVE online MWO has no so much difference between most expensive mech and most cheap one.
But if you may lose your mech in battle you will think harder about your fitting and tactics.
No more double heat sinks everywhere.
Look, a simple light mech in MWO costs more than any heavy.

Double heat sinks
Endo-steel
Ferro-Fibrous
XL engine

You install all of this and make a supermech from just a scouting spider - BAM and no more supermech in your garage.
Oh yeah pugs will cry so much, but look at Battletech - there is no such supermechs. If you bring such expensive machine in a battle, get ready to pay for it.