344 replies to this topic

[Baron Kreight]

I think there will be no limits (within hardpoints system). However mechs will have individual skill trees and thus will be best suited to certain equipment use.

[Vosgedzam]

The hard restrictions without any room of creativity within the limits is what kills many game.

[Lances107]

Just messing around and seeing how far this game has come, and saw this post, sense it interest me going to leave a reply here.
Isnt the point moot?
Light, medium, heavy, and assault share two common factors. Heat, and ammunition shortage. Now say a pilot sacrifices everything for a ppc or a gauses rifle. Given the recharge times, ammo shortage of a gause, and heat build up of a ppc. What do you get a mech that can hit you once in a while, but before he gets off his second shot, hes dead because he is out of his weight class.

Never forget the rule of mechs aim for the legs, and their speed means nothing. Translation a few shots from an assault can cripple any leg on any mech. Just my thoughts. If this wisdom does not hold true in mechwarrior online, then you do have a problem.

[Grajo]

Wolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

One of the biggest problems with previous Battle tech games was the "universal customization" allowance. Meaing everyone thought just because they salvaged or puchased it, it was going to fit on their mech, even tho common sense said no. Like a PPC on Jenner.........not gonna happen, or at least should not. However if you have the tonnage or willing to sacrifice things, you could make it happen, and this brought on the light - medium mechs with 12-18 small pulse lasers circle straffing ppl (which has been addressed in this game).

However playing the IS WAS supposed to be hard, they were no Omni mechs like the clans, thus the IS had Variants of their mechs and this is what we need to stick to also...the variant models. Or at the least limit the amount of a specific type of weapon can be put on an IS mech.

An Atlas with 4 large pulse lasers would make no sense, as there is already a mech that has that config (Rifleman IIC) and the Atlas role if close and personal with beefy armor, or would you put 3 ER PPC on an Atlas, when the Awesome already has that config?

To be true to the table top game you also have to be true to the varaints and each mechs limitations, as each mech was built to fit a role with certain needs in mind.

The Omi mech (clan mechs and later the IS introduced their versions) Is the only mech capable of taking and swapping various weapson and heatsinks without penalty...........we should keep it like that. My 2 cents...FLAME ON!

My two cents: If it can be done in TT game we should be given the opportunity to do it in MWO.

[Xune]

I realy enjoy tinkering and toying with my mech in the mech-lab, yet im afraid what will happen.
Afterall i remember to well the bad games in MW4 with 1-shot games. Afterall its mechwarrior and not " the first alpha kills"

[Fusea]

Thomas Hogarth, on 11 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Repairing is easier than refitting. Repairs can certainly be performed in the 'Mech bay. However, refitting a 'Mech with a different engine rating requires a good maintenance facility(Class D). Furthermore, changing out to an XL is one of the most difficult things to do to a 'Mech, being in the same category as replacing standard internals with endo, changing out the gyro or changing out the cockpit type(Class F). The rules for this can be found in Strategic Operations, which is in the rulebook set which is the most current(and will likely remain so for many, many years). The page to find this info is on Pg 188. Be sure to check Pg 189 to see how a completely custom variant modifies the difficulty and time.

Sadly, Strategic Operations isn't one of the books I have. I would agree with you that Endosteel would be the most time consuming upgrade, since it would require replacing the entire chassis, and may as well be the purchase of a brand new 'mech for the time and labor involved. I will amend that replacing the engine assumed a replacement of a similar class, ie: standard to standard, XL to XL. Swapping one for the other would add 10 extra hours to the job.

Thomas Hogarth, on 11 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

I need more details on which book than 'the master rules'. Also, replacement of a damaged engine is NOT the same as shoving in a totally different sized engine.

Battletech Master Rules Revised Edition. List number (in the top right corner of the cover) 1707 Published in 2001. It's the most recent book I've picked up for the universe, so I apologize if it's out of date. And as for replacing a damaged engine, I imagine it's actually more difficult than the refit. I can't imagine that it would be 'neatly damaged' with all the wiring harnesses and mountings intact.

Thomas Hogarth, on 11 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Internal structure isn't simply machined steel. To say that producing custom battlemech parts is more complicated than firing up your friendly corner machine shop would be a masterpiece of understatement.

You are of course 100% correct. My friendly corner machine shop would have no way at all to assist in custom 'mech building. However, we are not discussing my neighborhood machine shop. In the Battletech univers, Battlemechs are not the only 'mechs. Every planet has them for things like herding, mining, logging and a host of other activities. 'Mechs are common enough that the tools to work on them are likely not hugely difficult to acquire. Any decently equipped 'mech bay would have to have the ability to cut and fabricate mech skeleton in order to affect repairs on any damage more severe than a scratch to the armor. This would be the same for any reasonably stocked dropship. A machine shop would be essential to keeping the ship in working shape. Parts would have to be repaired and rebuilt, up to and including the repair of hull and bulkheads. Over all the tools evolve with the equipment being worked on. My corner machine shop can and has fabricated replacement parts for WWII tanks. Similarly, a machine shop in 3049 would be well capable of fabrications for a 'mech design first produced in 2784.

Thomas Hogarth, on 11 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

I didn't just pull 60.5 days out of my nether regions.

Nor did I. The book I listed provided rather simple rules. Follow the Repairs and Replacements rules, with the added fun of rules for making the 'mech in question unbalanced if the job is botched. Notice I never said the replacement/modification of the engine was well executed, just that it was executed.

[Rushyo]

Winters Flight, on 09 July 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Actually, a PPC on a light mech is cannon.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Panther

Obviously, there are some trades in weight and speed to mount such a large weapon on a small Mech, but they make excellent scout hunters and cheap direct fire support.

I see your Panther and raise you the Puma/Adder: http://www.sarna.net...dder_%28Puma%29

Two ER PPCs and targeting computer. Lovely 'Mech.

[wargonglok]

Skadi, on 09 July 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

oh god not sure if serious, customization is good, but build your own mech from the ground up...

Dear god no.

needs a dash of urbie in it, and 4 giant hunchback cannons.

if i had my normal comp rightnow i would photoshop a spider with big Hunchie guns instead of legs.

Edited by wargonglok, 12 July 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[teran]

Wolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

However playing the IS WAS supposed to be hard, they were no Omni mechs like the clans, thus the IS had Variants of their mechs and this is what we need to stick to also...the variant models. Or at the least limit the amount of a specific type of weapon can be put on an IS mech.

Omni mechs were built with modular construction in mind to facilitate rapidly changing loadouts to meet new tactical demands without requiring major downtime. Omni mechs did not make this kind of customization possible, it was already possible, there just was no universal standard which means everyone did it differently and thus would require significantly more time to make required changes to the mech being modified. Your argument is largely irrelevant because time is not likely going to be a factor in this game... I really couldn't see the developers locking players out of an omni-mech for a day while its loadout is modified, or a standard mech for a few days or a week.

Wolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

An Atlas with 4 large pulse lasers would make no sense, as there is already a mech that has that config (Rifleman IIC) and the Atlas role if close and personal with beefy armor, or would you put 3 ER PPC on an Atlas, when the Awesome already has that config?

Do you own a car? Do you like this car? If you could change or improve your vehicle to suit your personal desires for performance and aesthetics even though you could just go buy another car that may not need to be changed as much? In Battletech pilots become attached to their mechs. There is a true sense of ownership even if they don't own the mech, it's not just a vehicle they drive, it's the vehicle that keeps them alive. It's theirs. They don't want to pilot someone else's mech if it has a configuration closer to what they want or need, they want to pilot their own mech.

Wolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

To be true to the table top game you also have to be true to the varaints and each mechs limitations, as each mech was built to fit a role with certain needs in mind.

This is patently false. This is not the tabletop game, we do not control a lance or company of mechs, nor are we locked into the specific rule choices that were made to ensure balance in the TT. We will be locked into a different set of rule choices specific to this new game. The fact is variants are generally only mentioned in situations where the variant was mass produced or became popular. We have dozens if not hundreds of examples in Battletech lore of individual mechs being customized beyond the specifics of a variant.

Wolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

The Omi mech (clan mechs and later the IS introduced their versions) Is the only mech capable of taking and swapping various weapson and heatsinks without penalty...........we should keep it like that. My 2 cents...FLAME ON!

As mentioned above, omni mechs made swapping of weapons and loadouts efficient, it was already possible to make those changes before.

wargonglok, on 12 July 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

needs a dash of urbie in it, and 4 giant hunchback cannons.

if i had my normal comp rightnow i would photoshop a spider with big Hunchie guns instead of legs.

I think there's room for an Urbanmech styled autocannon down there between the legs... but that might make the mech a little too masculine for some.

Edited by teran, 12 July 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[Zerostone]

I just don't want to see all machine guns mechs.

[Soulvoid]

Zerostone, on 12 July 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I just don't want to see all machine guns mechs.

Already limited by hardpoints.

[Hawk819]

NOOOOOOO!!

[Skadi]

soooo... i was looking at the mechlab pics today, anyone else notice that there actualy is limitations? such as the amount of X type of weapons you can fit in 1 spot aside from weight limitations?
Edit: if someone posted this recently forgive me, didnt feel like re-reading the thread

Edited by Skadi, 12 July 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Skadi, on 12 July 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

soooo... i was looking at the mechlab pics today, anyone else notice that there actualy is limitations? such as the amount of X type of weapons you can fit in 1 spot aside from weight limitations?
Edit: if someone posted this recently forgive me, didnt feel like re-reading the thread

It's been brought up a couple times, and then promptly ignored.

In the mechlab, you need to mind tonnage, crit slots, and hardpoint counts. On a prime hunchback, you have an AC/20 in RT, M Las in each arm, and what looks like a small las on left shoulder (LT). From the mechlab pics posted, you could rip out the AC/20, and replace it with a UAC/5, letting you swap the small las and M Las for M Pulse instead along with added HS and it would be legal under the hardpoint system.

[Melcyna]

DauntlessK, on 11 July 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

I think that's another thing that will make things extra difficult because you won't exactly know what you're going up against from appearance... only until they actually start shooting will you know that the large laser in one arm is actually 4 smalls or a PPC...

That is why you SCAN the damn bloody mech with the targeting system until you get his loadout...

if you choose to attack him without scanning his loadout and get surprised by unexpected weapon config then that's YOUR FAULT.

ideally a light mech would do this for the team, but otherwise you'll have to scan his loadout yourself.

incidentally the ER small laser boat in MW3 that some may recall and mentioned?
There's a reason that thing existed in large number in MW3 multiplayer and similar build in MW2 multiplayer....

Back at the time of those 2 games were around, internet connection was still young... the speed we had was ABYSMAL, latency was crazy high and we had to deal with them...

Since this means long range weapon was bloody hard if not near impossibly to use (try aiming with latency of 500ms or more and you tell me) the natural design choice was to jam the mech with the most powerful combination of short range weapon possible to produce the best alpha at short range. In MW3 there was also the added complication in that you are dead from a leg lost, in MW2 you are also technically dead from a leg loss since the leg explodes and you topple (not dead, but you might as well be since you just became a one legged Mech that needs jump jets to shift the torso).

Unless latency becomes such a powerful issue in MWO, the main draw for such design is practically gone in this day and age of internet where latency from US to say Australia can be pushed down to almost sub 200 ms.

especially with the laser burn time in MWO and the fact that the loss of a single leg doesn't kill the mech or even amputate the leg.

Edited by Melcyna, 12 July 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Skadi]

Ranek Blackstone, on 12 July 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

It's been brought up a couple times, and then promptly ignored.

In the mechlab, you need to mind tonnage, crit slots, and hardpoint counts. On a prime hunchback, you have an AC/20 in RT, M Las in each arm, and what looks like a small las on left shoulder (LT). From the mechlab pics posted, you could rip out the AC/20, and replace it with a UAC/5, letting you swap the small las and M Las for M Pulse instead along with added HS and it would be legal under the hardpoint system.

yeah... i was looking at the catapult K2 and i noticed that you can either fit 1 ppc and 1 medium laser, or 2 medium lasers, although while hardpoints would allow far more than 2, there is a strict rule on only 2 energy weapons in that 1 slot.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Skadi, on 12 July 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

yeah... i was looking at the catapult K2 and i noticed that you can either fit 1 ppc and 1 medium laser, or 2 medium lasers, although while hardpoints would allow far more than 2, there is a strict rule on only 2 energy weapons in that 1 slot.

My wallpaper also says there is at least one energy hardpoint per tosro section along with a ballistics hardpoint for the K2's MGs.

6 energy hardpoints along with some MGs on a fairly well armored and mobile chasis is not something to sneeze at.

Your also confusing hardpoints with critical slots. the AC/20 would take up 10 of a torso sections 12 slots, but only count as 1 hardpoint.

[Skadi]

Ranek Blackstone, on 12 July 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

My wallpaper also says there is at least one energy hardpoint per tosro section along with a ballistics hardpoint for the K2's MGs.

6 energy hardpoints along with some MGs on a fairly well armored and mobile chasis is not something to sneeze at.

Your also confusing hardpoints with critical slots. the AC/20 would take up 10 of a torso sections 12 slots, but only count as 1 hardpoint.

you can fit 2 medium lasers and 1 MG (lol useless) in each torso (the K2 in the SS's has this esact setup) and a PPC in each "arm"
also maybe i did swap them... oopsy on the typing there, but yeah just because the weight can support it and theres the critical slots for it, but the hardpoint limitation wont support it.
(as in if theres 12 energy hard points for example, you cant fit 12 medium lasers in there even if your mech can support the weight, it only allows 2 energy weapons in that area of the mech)

Edited by Skadi, 12 July 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Once the PPCs open up the armor, that high ROF with the MGs is pretty much going to chew internals to bits.

[Skadi]

Ranek Blackstone, on 12 July 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Once the PPCs open up the armor, that high ROF with the MGs is pretty much going to chew internals to bits.

i rather get a K2 with 4 medium lasers and 2 AC5's (1 medium lasers in each arm and torso, ac5's take the spot of the MG's)