344 replies to this topic

[Kaspirikay]

Summary of thread thus far. Thanks.

[Sayyid]

MWHawke, on 13 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I just don't understand you. When factories can do it, you mean others can't do it?

I have seen village mechanics make mods to their cars that "professional" mechanics can't. So don't say fail when you don't understand the argument.



Oh.. and you can't put a torso onto 2 legs on a 100 ton chassis and still get it to move around and swing it's arms and shoot weapons. So, which part of facts of life don't you get?

Live with it.

Here is what I am saying, so you can understand.

I am saying you cant adjust or modify military equipment or performance equipment with a 128 piece Craftsman tool kit while sitting in the field in the middle of god knows where Iraqistan.

If a player WANTS to modify their mech like the BIG named characters in the books, they should have to pay the BIG NAMED character prices to get it done. Look at Natasha Kerensky she didnt modify her Griffin, or her Warhammer. Hanse Davion didnt modify his Battlemaster. The number of modified or customized mechs in the Battletech universe is less than half a percent of a whole percent. Or written out for you >.5% of 1%.

If you read about those characters with custom mechs, they either, PAID a pretty penny to get it done, or they had some technician skills to do it themselves over the span of a few years.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

[color=#959595]Look at Natasha Kerensky she didn't modify her Griffin, or her Warhammer.[/color]

Of course she didn't. She had Clan Tech or at the very least a Star League vintage Royal variant! Hanse Didn't but his UberSpy Modified his Centurion into Yen-Lo-Wang, Then his son got it modified even more. They paid Nothing to have it done either.

Also as I said before Commander Marcus GioAvanti changed his Caesar's weapons from IS to Clan Tech in a dropship MechBay. Yes it took time to do it, but in the book that was only 3 chapters. How long is it between drops in MWO? Is it Minutes or handwavium months?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 November 2012 - 06:25 AM.

[Sayyid]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Of course she didn't. She had Clan Tech or at the very least a Star League vintage Royal variant! Hanse Didn't but his UberSpy Modified his Centurion into Yen-Lo-Wang, Then his son got it modified even more. They paid Nothing to have it done either.

Also as I said before Commander Marcus GioAvanti changed his Caesar's weapons from IS to Clan Tech in a dropship MechBay. Yes it took time to do it, but in the book that was only 3 chapters. How long is it between drops in MWO? Is it Minutes or handwavium months?

Natasha didnt have clan tech when the "Bounty Hunter" destroyed her Griffin.

Allard-Liao did spend money to get his CN9 customized. He gave up a portion of his S7 winnings to finance the upgrades for the arena.

[John Norad]

Yes I'd like a bit more of restrictions when it comes to customization to make different mech chassis more unique.

Basically sized hardpoints would be great. Arm hardpoints should be very flexible, especially without lower arm/hand actuators, whereas torso hardpoints should be more limited.

Right now it pretty much feels like every mechs is just an empty hull with x tons and very few differences.

[Terror Teddy]

John Norad, on 14 November 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Right now it pretty much feels like every mechs is just an empty hull with x tons and very few differences.

And yet that is limited compared to the old tabletop.

I do agree though that I would have no problem with adding size limits to slots so that the chassis can at least be bought for it's intended role (like having the K2 cat actually be GOOD with it's PPC's.

The K2 chassis for example should perhaps be limited to (up to) AC10/LBX10 guns in the side torsos in order to put focus on the huge shoulder cannons it has.

The Gauss Raven variant people have been played with should most likely be more sensible if not 40% of it's total weight is hanging on it's left arm as a huge *** Gauss rifle. Perhaps a limit up to 1 AC10 or so. Even though the problem is mainly ART not following FUNCTION.

At the same time it is damn fun thinking out the WEIRD designs. The problem I see is that they not only fly in the face of logic at times, or game balance but straight into the face of logic in how the damn mech can even STAND with something like that.

Let's look at the GaussRaven from a different view. Exchange the Gauss Raven with a person of 80 kilograms weight who is holding a huge *** cannon mounted on his left arm weighting 32 kilograms.

Now picture him walking, running or standing - without tilting to the left...

Unfortunately the same thing can be said for the Urbanmech, at least that one has a lower profile - but it still seems wonky.

Unconventional designs are fun but bizzare creations that simply does not make SENSE is...weird.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 15 November 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[pencilboom]

Skadi, on 09 July 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

oh god not sure if serious, customization is good, but build your own mech from the ground up...

Dear god no.

ROFL!!! Damn you sir just made my day!

[MWHawke]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Of course she didn't. She had Clan Tech or at the very least a Star League vintage Royal variant! Hanse Didn't but his UberSpy Modified his Centurion into Yen-Lo-Wang, Then his son got it modified even more. They paid Nothing to have it done either.

Also as I said before Commander Marcus GioAvanti changed his Caesar's weapons from IS to Clan Tech in a dropship MechBay. Yes it took time to do it, but in the book that was only 3 chapters. How long is it between drops in MWO? Is it Minutes or handwavium months?

Sayyid, on 14 November 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Natasha didnt have clan tech when the "Bounty Hunter" destroyed her Griffin.

Allard-Liao did spend money to get his CN9 customized. He gave up a portion of his S7 winnings to finance the upgrades for the arena.

Read more about how mercs and individuals customize their mechs before you try to talk "facts". And I noticed you didn't reply to Joseph's point on Avanti's Angels. So, you just skip all the relevant facts and mention the ones that make sense to you?

And pertaining to your spent money on customization, it's utter nonsense. Village mechanics don't have big machines to modify cars. They don't have fancy expensive equipment. And yet, they find solutions to what they want to put into their cars.

When you look at today's tech, do you think everything was invented in a fancy huge factory? Dude, go study history. People said it was impossible to fly. I am sure everyone who tried to invent a working model for a plane spent all their time in huge factories coming up with their working models. Where do you think the very first car was made? Where do you think the very first Apple computer was made? In a factory? You mean they built a HUGE factory and THEN they made the first car or Apple computer? Geez, you just don't seem to get it.

Edited by MWHawke, 15 November 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Melcyna]

Sayyid obviously missed the parts where mercs and other mech units were forced to equip weapons other than the factory default on the field for expedience.

As would be expected of field condition, you don't always have the parts to replace losses available, in which case you'd have to be able to use whatever is available, else units operating on the field would be forced to carry excessive amount of spare parts for everything or risk losing effectiveness drastically in an ongoing campaign as parts are destroyed during attrition.

Quote

You cant put a 155mm Howitzer in a M1 Abrams turret
You cant put the M256 120mm the turret of a M2 Bradley
You cant put a M2HB .50cal upper reciever on a M16A2
You cant put a 40mm Bofors in a F16C Falcon in place of the 20mm Vulcan.

Actually... for some of that, we could... assuming there is a need for it, in the case of 155mm Howitzer for example, the only limitation is the gun elevation which the standard abrams turret are obviously not designed for and the base dimension for the gun fitting is obviously not designed for a 155mm, but it CAN be done assuming there is such a need.

The modification can be done just like we modified the M4 sherman back in WW2 to mount 105mm howitzer instead of the 75mm gun.



Main battle tank generally are heavy enough and solid enough (thanks to their design) to withstand the firing shock from large caliber guns including howitzers since their own gun is a very powerful high velocity high pressure gun...

This is also the reason there are many large tanks that have variants mounting howitzers especially back in WW2, going from high velocity gun to low velocity howitzer is fairly straightforward for these tanks.

Same with M2 bradley... IF there is an actual need for it, mounting one is technically possible... probably not the M256 though, but instead the low recoil variant 120mm gun...

this is how Centauro tank destroyer is pretty much designed around... it's basis chassis is similar to that of IFV, but it mounts a 120mm gun and act as direct fire support unit instead of carrying infantry like the other variants. Same with Striker MGS, though in MGS case they used a 105mm gun instead because they had problem with 120mm recoil and unlike Centauro Striker MGS is NOT technically intended as a tank destroyer but it can function adhoc as one if necessary.

WHEN THERE IS A NEED FOR IT, they can fit one with sufficient work... we've been doing so for well over half a century.

[Melcyna]

Incidentally, while we're on the subject of modifications and variants....

Spoiler

tanks are typically designed with their turret specifically for accommodating the gun meant for their design...

HOWEVER, IF a different gun has similar ballistic property as the one meant for the design, then generally speaking modifying the turret for the new gun is straightforward...

this is the case with M1 Abrams that originally mounted the 105mm gun and later on mounted 120mm gun, the turret design was not drastically altered since both guns behave similarly albeit with different threshold.

If the new gun however require a drastically different mounting and has a different ballistic property and purpose... for example a dual 35mm autocannon meant for aerial engagement... then the old turret obviously are not suited for mounting it since it has no real provision for mounting a gun with high elevation angle.

However, tanks are designed such that their base unit and the turret are modular enough that one can pretty much design a new turret, remove the old one, and plop the new one down into the base unit (and of course rearrange the interior) provided the turret ring is the same size.

This kind of provision is pretty much basic design... to allow the tanks chassis to be used for various purposes easily.

Back in WW2, we used to do DOZENS of these kinds of modifications and variants using the base chassis for pretty much everything imaginable with them.

And similarly we mounted a whole slew of guns and various armaments to the turret as long as they can hold it...

In modern times however, the need for most of these variants are no longer there... for example, we don't exactly need a howitzer tank anymore (hence why we don't have M1 howitzer variant like the old M4 with 105mm howitzers) when the advent of air support and high precision guided artillery can do the same job without the need for separate tank on the field.

If THE NEED is there, we can quite quickly retrofit most guns into the chassis provided it is within the weight and shock tolerance. These days however we no longer have such need in general except for some specialist variants like SPAAG or recovery vehicles or demolition variant.

So be careful when saying we can't mount X on the tank or some armored fighting vehicle... because chances are.. YOU CAN... IF THERE WAS A NEED TO DO SO... given that tank and AFV chassis have a VERY wide capability and provision for mounting various things.

if there isn't one right now carrying it, then chances are... there isn't a need for such variant, not that they can't mount it.

back on topic: Battlemech by virtue of their expected style of engagement most certainly HAD to be able to accommodate weapons not entirely the same as the original since given their range and their slug out brawl style losing weapons and parts are virtually guaranteed and it's impractical given their lore design to have enough spares for every single parts that can be lost from attrition.

Which to the best of my knowledge is reflected in the novel where merc units in the field sometimes mount weapons salvaged from the campaign after the original weapon for their mech was lost and there are insufficient parts to replace it.

Edited by Melcyna, 16 November 2012 - 03:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sayyid, on 14 November 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Natasha didnt have clan tech when the "Bounty Hunter" destroyed her Griffin.

Allard-Liao did spend money to get his CN9 customized. He gave up a portion of his S7 winnings to finance the upgrades for the arena.

Duly corrected.

[Terror Teddy]

Sayyid, on 13 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

You cant put a 155mm Howitzer in a M1 Abrams turret

The 155mm Howitzer would most likely fit but it would no longer be an artillery piece but a direct fire cannon. They would have to modify the turret and the gun and we would essentially replace the 125mm smoothbore cannon and turn it into a 155mm cannon.

Would it require extensive remodelling? Most likely - but you'd be surprised what people manage to invent during war time with only a selection of smashed up vehicles to choose from.

Quote

You cant put the M256 120mm the turret of a M2 Bradley

Well, it DOES have a large hollow interior to use.

We would have to move the driver a bit to the side and add shock absorbers. Gonna be a bloody tight fit and you could only fire straight ahead.

It would become a hackjob version of this:
http://www.creativec....jpg?1274020072

Quote

You cant put a M2HB .50cal upper reciever on a M16A2

Now you are talking about remodelling an actual GUN, not placing a weapon on a vehicle. Quite a difference.

Quote

You cant put a 40mm Bofors in a F16C Falcon in place of the 20mm Vulcan.

Of course we can. It's like saying that there is no place to fit the 30mm vulcan in the A10.

Could we do it in a workshop in the field? That's a bit more problematic. Do we have any internal space we can move safely? Hardly.

We might have to sacrifice stability so we could most likely reinforce the area above the rear landing gears, remove the drop tanks and install a 40mm gun under each wing flush to the body above the landing gears.

But in this case we are also talking about an airframe and they are simply not as sturdy as a tank or mech.

Will the plane break itself apart when firing - hopefully not.

EDIT:
We used twin 40mm cannons in WW2

http://ram-home.com/...rricane-2d.html

Edited by Terror Teddy, 16 November 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mech customization is already severely limited, Otherwise my Founder's Atlas would have a Gauss and LRM15 in each side torso. No thanks, I'm limited enough. I have to wait till we reach 3058 to get a Thunderhawk!

[Terror Teddy]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 November 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Mech customization is already severely limited, Otherwise my Founder's Atlas would have a Gauss and LRM15 in each side torso. No thanks, I'm limited enough. I have to wait till we reach 3058 to get a Thunderhawk!

How unsporting.

47 critical slots. Take about 20 of them for MG's Take CASE, Take ammo.

Light up the night with firework...

[Joseph Mallan]

Terror Teddy, on 16 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

How unsporting.

47 critical slots. Take about 20 of them for MG's Take CASE, Take ammo.

Light up the night with firework...

See it coming and light up the afternoon instead

[Vassago Rain]

Sayyid, on 14 November 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

Here is what I am saying, so you can understand.

I am saying you cant adjust or modify military equipment or performance equipment with a 128 piece Craftsman tool kit while sitting in the field in the middle of god knows where Iraqistan.

If a player WANTS to modify their mech like the BIG named characters in the books, they should have to pay the BIG NAMED character prices to get it done. Look at Natasha Kerensky she didnt modify her Griffin, or her Warhammer. Hanse Davion didnt modify his Battlemaster. The number of modified or customized mechs in the Battletech universe is less than half a percent of a whole percent. Or written out for you >.5% of 1%.

If you read about those characters with custom mechs, they either, PAID a pretty penny to get it done, or they had some technician skills to do it themselves over the span of a few years.

Paying 8 million for a commando and the parts isn't BIG MONEY enough?

[Terror Teddy]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 November 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

See it coming and light up the afternoon instead

Its fun until you run out of ammo...which means about two minutes.

[Chrithu]

Wolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Aye, hard point are fine, but still does not prevent "unreasonable" mech configs..

Who the **** are you to say what confg is reasonable and which isn't?

[Squarefox]

Mech customization is one of the most important things in mechwarrior. It has always been and will always be.

[Terror Teddy]

Jason Parker, on 16 November 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Who the **** are you to say what confg is reasonable and which isn't?

None is unreasonable, but damn bizarre and funny.

Urbanmech: 70% of it's weight is on it's left arm - and it does not fall over.
Gaussraven: 48% of it's weight is ALSO on it's right arm and far more brittle platform with those dinky legs.

They work, but the logic behind the design is giving me a headache.

Or for that matter - how to safely transport my AC20 ammo from the legs to the right arm gun. While moving.