60 replies to this topic

[DoRkcHoPs]

Gauss is a terrible weapon in CQC if any other person is shooting you. The long wait between shots coupled with the damage coming in almost always means that you get 1-2 shots off before that gauss explodes and possibly takes your engine with it. Combine that with vs almost any build of 4-8 lasers and you are severely outgunned. Gauss should be a weapon to be feared not laughed at.

By equipping gauss to either side torso you have just increased the chances of losing that half of the body tenfold. Sure it generates basically no heat, sure it has long range, sure it does pinpoint damage. None of that makes up for all of the stipulations that have been added onto it.

MauttyKoray, on 03 November 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Considering Gauss is still a core weapon in many builds and used both for range and brawling, something is still off. Also, the crosshair does not shake when being hit, it still stays perfectly on spot to where you're pointing, only your visual cockpit shakes. MASC shake happens because your mech's 'muscles' are basically over stressing, I'm okay with that makes it feel good when using it. JJs make it shake because you're sending shockwaves of thrust through your mech, plus it eliminates most of the poptarts/super brawlers.

So yes, compared to every other ballistic it still REIGNS SUPREME unless you can boat several, which is only a handful of mechs. You're getting 15-30 points depending on if you have two or not, in a high speed, pinpoint location. NO other ballistic can do that outside of a very small range (and only on IS mechs too). 5.5 seconds is NOT the end of the world for Gauss, trust me, and I like the charge/decay mechanic for Gauss, however it needs to be coded in that the weapon should only be able to explode while/during the weapon charged. If not charged it should be inert and therefore not explode because there would be no stored energy. The point to the exploding weapon was that its capacitors stored energy and if critted the energy suddenly discharged in more than its intended direction (throwing the slug forward).

You are correct screenshake and crosshair shake is not the same but it does have an effect especially if zoomed in.

I do like the explosion mechanic you described. This would definitely reduce some of the pain of equipping the weapon in LT or RT.

5.5 seconds plus a charge up time makes the gauss have the longest delay between firing of any weapon in the game. Couple that with the slash in perks and gauss is now basically useless in 90% of situations. Why would you equip a gauss with a 6 second cooldown when you could just use an ac20 with a 4 second cooldown and some extra heat. 2 seconds is an extra laser vomit.

Edited by DoRkcHoPs, 04 November 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Nightshade24]

L3mming2, on 04 November 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

if u use the same logic lasers should be low heat weapons unless they have poor conductors...

BT lasers uses Plasma to create a focused beam of Radiation that creates an amplified laser of light.

It's slightly hard to think how nuclear powered laser may not be that hot... especially when it's basically powered by the heated exhaust of the engine. (hense why lasers do not work if you got a chemical engine in BT)

[Mcgral18]

Gauss is the best weapon in the game for a reason, one of the few that can One Shot a fully armoured cockpit (or rST of isLights).

It's the best Crit weapon, it's the best Long Range weapon, it's a decent Short range weapon (heatless, 2KM/s velocity is nearly instant at that range).


You need a downside when you are the BEST AT EVERYTHING. DPS is that thing. 6.25s is a tad excessive, but 5.5s would be perfectly reasonable.

[DoRkcHoPs]

Most of the new mechs have a cockpit hitbox so small its impossible to hit it even when they are standing still.

[John McHobo]

I was surprised too see the increase in cooldown.

It has already been stated that the Gauss Rifle is a good weapon -high pinpoint damage on extreme ranges- but I think enough drawbacks have already beeen put on it: its heavy, its huge, its highly explosive (90% Chance IIRC) and snapshots have been made impossible by the charge mechanic.

Quote

one of the few that can One Shot a fully armoured cockpit

A fully armored cockpit has 18 points of armor and the weapon does 15 points of damage - I see no oneshot here (and I personally find it hard to pull off even one headshot with a gauss in a brawl).

It also has been stated that the gauss is an interesting close-combat weapon, but I disagree. Thats what AC20s are for.

Thats why I dont think this nerf is needed. If the designers are after the handful of mechs which can pull off dual-gauss-builds (usually at a high cost) then I would suggest to solve that in another way without making the weapon even harder to use for everyone.

[CainenEX]

DoRkcHoPs, on 03 November 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

It already explodes when a speck of dust lands on it
It is apparently made of explosive crystal because it has the highest crit chance
You can't fire more than 2 at once
It has a charge up time before you can use it and a decay timer so you cant just charge and hold
It has one of the longest cooldowns in the game
It weighs as much as an AC20 but does 5 less damage
It is the longest range weapon in the game but every single map renders that advantage useless with more and more cover being added.
Advanced Zoom was probably designed to be blurry specifically to prevent gauss accuracy.
Crosshair shake while using jumpjets, masc and being fired on makes it nearly impossible to shoot unless you get real good at the timing of turning away charging snapping back and firing all in an effort to keep the damn thing from exploding before you get 2 shots off.

Leave it the hell alone already. If you want to nerf it take away the charge/decay timer and only allow one per chassis. The only mech that dual gauss is still viable on is the king crab because the weapon is protected any other mech it blows off half your body with a 100% chance

You forgot to mention how it's a meta weapon and it's upsides LOL

Dude... Gauss is good, and it's still going to be good, but now you'll have to fire a little more slowly and put your shots where they count vs spamming the damn thing. As a Gauss vomit user I think this nerf to the cooldown time will be beneficial with helping to define more weapon systems and reduce TTK.

Now I'll have more reason to dust off that AC 10

Edited by CainenEX, 04 November 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[Pjwned]

TheCharlatan, on 04 November 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Gauss is a sniper weapon that is good in CQC too.
The increased cooldown should lower it's dps, so making it less good in close quarters, where it just dosen't belong.

Except that the gauss rifle already has the lowest DPS:tonnage ratio in the entire game. Its DPS is already pretty awful because it already has a giant cooldown as it is, so if you're complaining about its DPS then you're complaining about the wrong thing.

[Hydrocarbon]

Mcgral18, on 04 November 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

Gauss is the best weapon in the game for a reason, one of the few that can One Shot a fully armoured cockpit (or rST of isLights).

A lot of things look great on paper. Speaking of paper, lets commit some numbers to paper:

DPS/ton (higher is better):
Gauss: 0.21
AC/5: 0.377
IS-LPL: 0.40
c-ERLL: 0.58

DPS/slot: (higher is better):
Gauss: 0.45
IS-AC/5: 0.753
IS-LPL: 1.405
c-ERLL: 2.32


Wait, what? Huh?! Gauss on paper also looks like complete CRAP!

About those cockpit his - for some strange reason the group I was with compared numbers last night, and we ranged from 29 to 107 headshots each - out with 3000 to 10000 kills each. Your idea that gauss is OP from headshots is stupid - it only happens reliably when people use an aimbot.

Lets look at your idea that the 2km range is OP. The lights you're talking about, especially Locusts, can easily GTFO in the >0.5sec it takes for the round to travel, and even if they can't it's only doing minimal damage. At 1500m a dual gauss is only doing 7.5 DMG (or 1.58 DPS) - holy s*** batman that damage is STAGGERING! It will center core a Locust in NO TIME at that rate - a blinding 13 seconds! Now they want to make it worse? LOL!

What does that leave? Raw DPS! Dual gauss is 6.32 DPS. Look closer - max DPS is also 6.32. What does that mean? Face time - lots of it. The TBR-C(C) is nearly double the max DPS. Another hidden problem is your RARELY get to that number due to charge-up unless you're using a macro (even then, they don't work well). Any other weapon you can spam the button, then hide for a bit while you cool down. When people get sniped by gauss, they don't just sit there & wait for the sniper to re-appear 4-6 seconds later.


One more thing - when I ask people why they don't use gauss, it's generally because they either HATE the charge mechanic or the charge mechanic is TOO HARD to learn. I know a player who's easily in the top 25 of the game and he still hasn't gotten the hang of gauss.

TO sum it up, Gauss has more issues than any other weapon system in teh game IMO. Lowering DPS is not needed, unless they make it safer & easier to use.

[Mcgral18]

Hydrocarbon, on 04 November 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

TO sum it up, Gauss has more issues than any other weapon system in teh game IMO. Lowering DPS is not needed, unless they make it safer & easier to use.

The one advantage the Gauss doesn't have is DPS; it wins every other section.

I'm not saying it's OP, it's just the best there is, within reasonable limits. Less DPS won't kill it (but 6.25 is excessive, 5.5(4.75+.75) would be a better place. Putting words into my mouth is a bad idea.

Your argument are also...well, hilarious, to be blunt.

I really don't care if someone is too Bad to use a Gauss.

Ignoring everything that makes it good is a bad practice. There's a reason you see more Gauss Whales than DakkaWhales at the top end; they complement Lasers very well (they make up the damage, Gauss having no heat).

John McHobo, on 04 November 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

A fully armored cockpit has 18 points of armor and the weapon does 15 points of damage - I see no oneshot here (and I personally find it hard to pull off even one headshot with a gauss in a brawl).

Doesn't really matter what you see. 2.25+2.25+30=34.5



With max armour, 17% base chance, increased by TCs. With .75 points removed, (32.25), a single Crit, or 42% base chance is all that's needed.

[Tesunie]

Hydrocarbon, on 04 November 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

What does that leave?

What about damage per heat? And the complimentary weapons that can often be added into a Gauss build (even some double guass) that can take advantage of this?

Gauss are good weapons on high heat builds. I even have a single heat sink Cicada with a Gauss on it, backed with lasers. No need for DHS on the mech, as it just doesn't get hot enough.

Hydrocarbon, on 04 November 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

TO sum it up, Gauss has more issues than any other weapon system in teh game IMO. Lowering DPS is not needed, unless they make it safer & easier to use.

Actually... I would think (with current ECM in live servers) that the LRM system has more items going against it and is considered one of the worst weapons in game (but the Flamer is considered still worse). (And don't get me wrong, I know LRM strengths, and I find that they aren't as bad as some proclaim, but they aren't Gauss/Laser level good either.)


Though, I wouldn't be against increasing the weapon's health back up to 10 instead of 3... (among some other smallish changes). However, I'll give the new changes a try before saying anything on them. Remember, the changes are only on the test server, so test it and provide feedback. It hasn't gone live and may never do so.

[Cementi]

Played a gauss, so far seems fine to me though part of that might have been because no one can torso twist fast enough to spread damage.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Nightshade24, on 04 November 2015 - 03:13 AM, said:

Giving it heat is not only messing with TT. But it'll also **** with logic. Because a projectile that doesn't even touch the barrel and is not proppelled by exploding and expanding gasses somehow creates enough heat for it to be no different to the higher friction gunpowdered cannons?

You DO know what a Gauss rifle is right?

If anything, it'll be more logical to give it the TT value of a min range. (which can make sense if the bullet isn't armed up close to prevent self damage or accidents. which happens on a few ammo types as well as missiles IRL...
It isn't that logical as most people do not put those kind of ammunitions in a gauss rifle/ coil gun (or it's relative; the rail gun) but it's more logical and lore friendly than having a hot coil gun for 3051...

You do know how a Gauss rifle works... Right? Giant coils of copper (presumably) wire wrapped around a barrel shorts, creating a magnetic field which pulls the slug forward... First, the slug DOES touch the barrel, it is specifically mentioned as being rifled. Second, shorting an electrical circuit actually generates quite a bit of heat, that's why electric motors get hot. The Gauss rifle should create quite a bit of heat, logically. It should also have stupendous recoil. A minimum range is.... absurd... bullet armed? O_o It's a giant 100KG slug of solid nickel ferrite... there's nothing to arm.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 04 November 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Tesunie]

Twilight Fenrir, on 04 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

A minimum range is.... absurd...

The minimum range in TT is the same explanation as it is for the AC2 and AC5. They can't focus as quickly for closer ranges, so they get a penalty to hit against targets that are closer up. They can still hit up close, but it's harder to get them to actually hit. (Unlike LRMs with an arming range, or PPCs with a disruptive and possibly damaging feedback.)

[Khobai]

Told you clowns gauss was getting nerfed.

All they need to do now is increase ERPPC velocity and decrease ERPPC range (810m is way too long

Quote

range)Except that the gauss rifle already has the lowest DPS:tonnage ratio in the entire game.

Yeah except DPS doesnt really matter at all. people dont just stand in the open holding down the fire button. they duck in and out of cover and try to trade damage intelligently which means youre not necessarily firing every time your cooldown is up; youre firing when you can do more damage to the enemy than you take in return.

What matters the most in the current meta is facetime: how much damage you can do with as little exposure as possible. And Gauss is excellent for that. Hence the nerf.

HOWEVER Im not sure IS gauss needed a nerf though because it was already 3 tons heavier than Clan gauss. Certainly clan gauss needed a nerf though.

Edited by Khobai, 04 November 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[Livewyr]

PPC needs it's RoF hit too.

[Tesunie]

Livewyr, on 04 November 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

PPC needs it's RoF hit too.

PPCs have high heat, so making it shoot fast means you overheat, and making it shoot slower helps manage heat better.

PPCs could use a bit of a velocity boost though, and some way to make it register damage when it actually visually hits... (My common problem with PPCs and SRMs and ACs to a lesser degree.)

[Livewyr]

Tesunie, on 04 November 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

PPCs have high heat, so making it shoot fast means you overheat, and making it shoot slower helps manage heat better.

PPCs could use a bit of a velocity boost though, and some way to make it register damage when it actually visually hits... (My common problem with PPCs and SRMs and ACs to a lesser degree.)

PPC heat is high.. but it's not high enough to prevent it being spammed in a brawl. (Ergo, I'm seeing some AC5/PPC victors returning...)

[Tesunie]

Livewyr, on 04 November 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

PPC heat is high.. but it's not high enough to prevent it being spammed in a brawl. (Ergo, I'm seeing some AC5/PPC victors returning...)

Not a super powerful combination anymore like it use to be (back when it was cooler and people typically took 2 or more PPCs). Not as powerful as when it was closer in velocity as the Gauss and it was PPC and Gauss combos.



I still don't understand why PGI did the weapons as they did personally. I don't know why they didn't adjust TT values to be damage over 10 seconds (as long as a round of TT is considered to be) of weapons fire in game. Example: A med laser would deal 5 damage for 4 heat over 10 seconds of continuous fire. If it could fire 3 times within 10 seconds in game, it would deal 1.66 damage per shot and generate 1.33 heat per shot. Then they could balance weapons based on number of shots per second, making some weapons shoot faster but deal less pin point damage, and others may be very powerful and pin point, but have long recharge times. (Ammo would be adjusted accordingly of course, so it still deals proper damage per ton of ammo.)

In above example, a Gauss could be a 1 or 2 shots per 10 seconds. If it was 1 shot per, it would deal 15 damage per shot and 1 heat, but then would be on cool down for an entire 10 seconds! Where as an AC10 might shoot 3 times, making it more effective for running engagements and brawls.

But... This part may be wondering off topic...

[Nightshade24]

Twilight Fenrir, on 04 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

You do know how a Gauss rifle works... Right? Giant coils of copper (presumably) wire wrapped around a barrel shorts, creating a magnetic field which pulls the slug forward... First, the slug DOES touch the barrel, it is specifically mentioned as being rifled. Second, shorting an electrical circuit actually generates quite a bit of heat, that's why electric motors get hot. The Gauss rifle should create quite a bit of heat, logically. It should also have stupendous recoil. A minimum range is.... absurd... bullet armed? O_o It's a giant 100KG slug of solid nickel ferrite... there's nothing to arm.

As said before. I said in the awkward situation the projectile isn't solid metal and is an HE shell or a HESH or what ever.

Which to a degree makes sense because BT armour works that penetration is much more harder as the armour is made to prevent that from happening as the armour reacts and explodes blowing the bullet away but making it more weaker in that section (hence why it isn't WT style penetration and trying to destroy internals and weapons of the mech but instead we are completely stripping the armour before that happens).

So something that causes more armour to fly off than an AP shell would be more preferable... however we are back to the point of why even use a gauss rifle for this and the answer is simple: because why the hell not....

The fact we are using a coil gun which currently is not used for weapons and is used for science for launching other projectiles rather than firing bullets... a Rail gun is easier to make, handle, repair ,and is more robust... The fact we are using the Coilgun/ Gauss rifle instead of the Railgun is already very odd especially considering the fact that we got weapons still being produced and used from the 1950's (Thumper)... so the "Railgun got extinct after gauss rifles were perfected" excuse is not valid... we still have Rifles which is older than autocannons around as well (not in BT) and we got autocannons even though LBX came in and UAC's...
Gauss in BT wasn't perfected., this is why we got light and heavy versions later on as well as AP and even then we had to get the improved heavy one for it to work and so on....

Due to the functionality of the coil gun/ gauss rifle it doesn't require contact to fire a projectile (hence why for 'science' reasons you can launch odd shaped objects that would normally not work in a barrel. However Guassrifles with barrels do work.
Another problem with BT: it's ambiguity ... we are not only debating gauss physics but what kind of gauss it is and such...

Also I didn't say that Gauss rifles have no heat, I said it does less heat than combustion based weapons... however now that I am starting to think of it the ambient temperature and composition of the atmosphere would have strong affects on the gauss rifle....

Great. now we have to go discuss about Ammonia rich atmosphere/ Ozone rich atmosphere / helium rich atmosphere/ high moisture/ dry atmosphere/ weird combinations / acid rain/ etc and it's affects on gauss rifles....

[ShinVector]

Can differently feel it... It does its job... Dual Gauss no longer as strong as it used to be.