47 replies to this topic

[Variant1]

Good analysis OP however no no bufs to lrms speed they good were they are at now. Plus ecm is gona get a pretty big nerf

[Mister Blastman]

I think the agility nerfs are beyond silly. They just dumb the game down into a low-skill ball of poo.

[Tarogato]

If they keep buffing SHS, then two things are going to happen:

1. if you want to switch between DHS and SHS builds depending on situation (especially for comp), you'll paying that goddamn 2.5 mil tax every time.

2. stock mech mode is broken and no longer fun.

[sycocys]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I think the agility nerfs are beyond silly. They just dumb the game down into a low-skill ball of poo.

The agility nerfs are going to curb a lot of the arcade feel.

[Mister Blastman]

sycocys, on 04 November 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

The agility nerfs are going to curb a lot of the arcade feel.

Not really. What they will do is make 'mechs slower and easier to hit thus decreasing time to kill. It will be harder to spread damage, it will be harder to play offensively against your enemy, it will be harder to flank--reducing agility will stagnate the game further into hiding behind rocks and firing lines.

It is a bad idea.

[FupDup]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Not really. What they will do is make 'mechs slower and easier to hit thus decreasing time to kill. It will be harder to spread damage, it will be harder to play offensively against your enemy, it will be harder to flank--reducing agility will stagnate the game further into hiding behind rocks and firing lines.

It is a bad idea.

It will also take mechs a longer time to retreat back behind those rocks (nerfed accel/decell), which in turn means they will be exposed to enemy fire for a longer time...

[GRiPSViGiL]

Thanks for analysis. I have to say this is promising. I haven't had any optimistic feelings in a long time but we will see once it goes to the live servers.

Mister Blastman makes a goodpoint though.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 04 November 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

FupDup, on 04 November 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

It will also take mechs a longer time to retreat back behind those rocks (nerfed accel/decell), which in turn means they will be exposed to enemy fire for a longer time...

That I fear will exacerbate player unwillingness to commit to any sort of risky maneuver. Also, if... they ever make changes to PPCs/jump jets in such a way that might re-enable the sniper meta, it puts brawlers at a greater risk and will make the next sniper meta significantly worse than the last one.

[FupDup]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

That I fear will exacerbate player unwillingness to commit to any sort of risky maneuver. Also, if... they ever make changes to PPCs/jump jets in such a way that might re-enable the sniper meta, it puts brawlers at a greater risk and will make the next sniper meta significantly worse than the last one.

Poptarting is actually already kinda viable (not optimal, but usable) on mechs like the Nova and Summoner...

[Mister Blastman]

FupDup, on 04 November 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Poptarting is actually already kinda viable (not optimal, but usable) on mechs like the Nova and Summoner...

Yeah. I do it. PPCs are sooooooo hot though.

[FupDup]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Yeah. I do it. PPCs are sooooooo hot though.

With those 1.1 capacity Clan dubs, they're only gonna get hotter.

Kerensky help us all if a mech ever has JJs while having enough tonnage to effectively use dual Gauss. Night Gyr, I choose you!

[Alistair Winter]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I think the agility nerfs are beyond silly. They just dumb the game down into a low-skill ball of poo.

I think it's precisely the opposite.

I remember when I first started playing the Atlas (early 2013), because I was amazed at how it felt like piloting a battleship through difficult waters. Without any agility skills unlocked, I felt like I had to plan every move ten seconds ahead of time. It was a completely new experience for a FPS, because I was so used to having infinite agility, and being able to turn 180 degrees in 0.01 seconds. It was a wonderful challenge to have more firepower than anyone on the battlefield (4xLPL on the AS7-RS before Paul normalized pulse lasers. My god, that was great), but constantly fighting to avoid getting out of position in a brawl.

I had a similar experience earlier this year when I started levelling Dire Wolves for the first time. This time, it wasn't quite as fun, because the meta has changed drastically. Now there's loads of 70-80 kph assault mechs running around, not to mention 90 kph heavy mechs. Being a slow, drifting battleship in a brawl isn't quite as romantic as it was in 2013. But I still enjoyed the challenge of having more firepower than anyone on the battlefield, while having to think hard about where and when to move.

Mechwarrior is hailed as the thinking man's shooter precisely because the pace is slower. A slow pace doesn't mean less thinking. Quite the opposite. And I don't think MWO has become a lot more tactical and intellectually challenging the last 12 months, even though the meta has more emphasis on speed than ever. Almost every match is a race that takes your team 2-3 laps around the race track. Reducing the amount of movement won't necessarily reduce the amount of thinking involved. Increasing the amount of movement on the battlefield certainly hasn't increased the amount of thinking involved. People are running around the maps like wolfhounds chasing rabbits.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Alistair Winter, on 04 November 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

I agree with this. Speed tweak should be removed untill they implement multiple skill trees for different roles.

Oh dear God no. IS assaults are already painfully slow. Dont make them any slower until we get the multiple skill trees for different roles. PLEASE GOD NO. NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Death Proof]

I have no problem with making mechs less agile and mobile overall (I mean, they are supposed to be giant hulking tanks with legs) but the revision to the skill tree kinda makes it less important to level your mechs. They should scrap it entirely and come up with a new skill system that makes worthwhile benefits without being over powered.

That's just my initial impression...might change after I play with it more.

[Mister Blastman]

Alistair Winter, on 04 November 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

I think it's precisely the opposite.

I remember when I first started playing the Atlas (early 2013), because I was amazed at how it felt like piloting a battleship through difficult waters. Without any agility skills unlocked, I felt like I had to plan every move ten seconds ahead of time. It was a completely new experience for a FPS, because I was so used to having infinite agility, and being able to turn 180 degrees in 0.01 seconds. It was a wonderful challenge to have more firepower than anyone on the battlefield (4xLPL on the AS7-RS before Paul normalized pulse lasers. My god, that was great), but constantly fighting to avoid getting out of position in a brawl.

That was nice and I agree. But the players this change hurts are the veterans that know how to push the limits. When the deathball nascar rotation happens, usually the first team to bite of the other's tail starts to win and the inept, newer players are trashed in short order. Removing agility will slow down the nascar... but it will also lower the skill threshold that is attainable.

It has pros and cons. It isn't a fix all like it might sound. The pros are assaults will be harder to use but the cons will be what I mentioned above.

I think there are better ways to increase time to kill than take away a better player's ability to defend themselves using mech twisting, contorting and maneuvering. Players should be rewarded for their dedication to the game and maneuvering keeps you alive. Take it away and it is easier to make you dead. That's kind of the opposite of what folks are looking for...

Many of us want increased time to kill.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 04 November 2015 - 09:00 AM.

[Navid A1]

Alistair Winter, on 04 November 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

It's time to forget about all the current controversies about MWO, wipe the slate clean and look at PTS with some level of objectivity. Here goes!

Skill tree changes
Basically, all skills have been nerfed. Arm reflex has been reduced from 15% (30% when elited) to 2.5% (5% when elited), for example. The end result is that every mech in the game has had mobility, agility and firepower slightly nerfed. The bad news is that grinding will now feel a bit meaningless, because there won't really be a huge difference between a new mech and a mastered mech. The good news is that veteran players in mastered won't have a huge advantage over new players in new mechs. More importantly... one major problem in MWO has been that all mechs were too agile, and it was very hard for light mechs to use their agility against heavy mechs. It was way too easy for heavies and assaults to track light mechs as they tried to evade fire. Also, a global nerf of heat dissipation and maximum heat treshold is basically a global increase of Time To Kill. This is very good.

Verdict: Good change overall.
...

Lights and mediums are shafted here... how is that good?
heavier mechs have never had any problems tracking lights (even un-basic'd). Less agility means nothing for heavier mechs. It only means that you can get dual PPC/Gauss, CLPLs more easily to your face, when you are a light.

One of the major things that keeps the lights hard to hit currently is their explosive acceleration/deceleration/turn rate.
I bet everyone can hit a mastered timber as easily as an unbasic'd one.

Alistair Winter, on 04 November 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Heat sinks
Inner Sphere Single heat sinks have been buffed slightly. This is something the fans have been asking for, but the change is less than 10%, so it's ultimately meaningless. It's a step in the right direction, but the step is about two inches. Clan double heat sinks outside the engine (where you have TrueDubs) have been nerfed. This is a good thing, and it's far more simple and elegant than a million negative quirks to deal with the TBR, SCR, EBJ, WHK, HBR, DW and ACH. The bad news is that it indirectly affects mechs like the Summoner and Adder. But it's always better to lay down blanket nerfs that can be countered by quirks for specific mechs, rather than relying on individual nerfs for every mech.

Verdict: Good change overall. (But buff those SHS for God's sake)

Its good to keep crazy alphas in check.
but summoners, adders, fridges, lynxes, etc are doomed... forever.
Quirks? for clan mechs?!... keep dreaming.
maybe 2.5% here and there. totaling to max 5% only with pods with a single hardpoint.

Alistair Winter, on 04 November 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

LRMs
Both IS and Clan LRMs have received tighter spreads and longer cooldown. This reduces the constant LRM spam rattling your cockpit, but it makes the first salvo a lot more deadly. The first salvo is the most important, because good players will rarely stand in the open long enough to eat multiple salvos.

It also encourages large salvos as opposed to chain firing LRM5s, because that single 4xLRM15 blast is now going to be more devastating. LRM20s may even be viable now. It does lead to lower DPS overall, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The issue with LRMs used to be that they did a lot of damage (great for farming C-bills) while spreading that damage all over and not getting kills. There will be less of that now.

Verdict: Good change overall (But where's the velocity increase, for God's sake?)

That is way too optimistic
0.5m less spread means absolutely nothing.

The only important thing here is LRM cooldown nerf.

If they really wanted to do something good to LRMs they should have increased the velocity. Even if it was just with line of sight.

[WarHippy]

FupDup, on 04 November 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

It will also take mechs a longer time to retreat back behind those rocks (nerfed accel/decell), which in turn means they will be exposed to enemy fire for a longer time...

Thus negating any increase in TTK that people seem to think this terrible change is going to accomplish. Add in the fact a lot of mechs are going to feel terrible to pilot and you have a net loss in enjoyment and an increase in frustration for at best no improvement to TTK.

[Alistair Winter]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

That was nice and I agree. But the players this change hurts are the veterans that know how to push the limits. When the deathball nascar rotation happens, usually the first team to bite of the other's tail starts to win and the inept, newer players are trashed in short order. Removing agility will slow down the nascar... but it will also lower the skill threshold that is attainable.ake y
It has pros and cons. It isn't a fix all like it might sound. The pros are assaults will be harder to use but the cons will be what I mentioned above.
I think there are better ways to increase time to kill than take away a better player's ability to defend themselves using mech twisting, contorting and maneuvering. Players should be rewarded for their dedication to the game and maneuvering keeps you alive. Take it away and it is easier to make you dead. That's kind of the opposite of what folks are looking for...
Many of us want increased time to kill.

Well, it's only a couple of hours away. I see your arguments, but I think we'll find out for ourselves soon enough

Navid A1, on 04 November 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Lights and mediums are shafted here... how is that good?
heavier mechs have never had any problems tracking lights (even un-basic'd). Less agility means nothing for heavier mechs. It only means that you can get dual PPC/Gauss, CLPLs more easily to your face, when you are a light.
One of the major things that keeps the lights hard to hit currently is their explosive acceleration/deceleration/turn rate.
I bet everyone can hit a mastered timber as easily as an unbasic'd one.

It's not about hitting the Timber Wolf, of course. It's about the extra torso twist, extra movement in the arms, extra turn rate. All those things shave off miliseconds that allow them to keep the crosshairs on light mechs circling them at 150-170 kph.

The agility nerfs will hurt the light mechs too, for sure. But I think it's going to help them more than it hurts them. We'll see whether I'm right.

Navid A1, on 04 November 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Its good to keep crazy alphas in check.
but summoners, adders, fridges, lynxes, etc are doomed... forever.
Quirks? for clan mechs?!... keep dreaming.
maybe 2.5% here and there. totaling to max 5% only with pods with a single hardpoint.

I simply have no more tears to cry for the Summoner. I have been complaining about that mech since Wave 1 was first released. PGI's lackluster attempts to balance the bad Clan mechs have been deeply disappointing, but now I've simply stopped caring. To me, the overpowered TBR, SCR, EBJ, HBR and DW are a much bigger problem than the underpowered SMN, ADR, IFR, etc.

Navid A1, on 04 November 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

That is way too optimistic
0.5m less spread means absolutely nothing.
The only important thing here is LRM cooldown nerf.
If they really wanted to do something good to LRMs they should have increased the velocity. Even if it was just with line of sight.

I think we've had so many momentary LRMapocalypses that PGI has learned not to make huge changes to LRMs. It's a step in the right direction, and I hope they keep buffing LRMs until they are viable among the highest level of MWO players. But yes, they should have increased velocity.

[Kira Onime]

I didn't check to see if it was mentioned but someone on reddit made a decent point about the skill tree nerfs.

Remember PTS1 where some mechs had mobility quirks in the double digits.
Skill tree nerfs make a bit more sense IMO if you take those in mind.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 04 November 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

I simply have no more tears to cry for the Summoner. I have been complaining about that mech since Wave 1 was first released. PGI's lackluster attempts to balance the bad Clan mechs have been deeply disappointing, but now I've simply stopped caring. To me, the overpowered TBR, SCR, EBJ, HBR and DW are a much bigger problem than the underpowered SMN, ADR, IFR, etc.

If you need a reminder, the Daishi can boat ballistics very effectively. Though not as favored as its current laser + Gauss builds, a UAC Daishi can still chainsaw people in half pretty quickly.

The Daishi is actually less affected by the DHS nerf than any other current Clan mech.

Probably gonna need extreme negative quirks on the Orion IIC variant that can load up dual Gauss in the LT...