51 replies to this topic

[Fredpunk]

I have been shocked to see that it is planned to nerf the skill tree. It might be a stupid question, why would you (the devs) want to do this? I have just begun to unlock my elite skills for my nova to enjoy the benefits of the basic skills. With the nerfs, even with the double bonus the mech will be worse than in its current state.

Edited by Fredpunk, 03 November 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[Embalmed]

seems like they achieved their goal of making all the mech skill trees just obstructions before you can get speed tweak and the master module slot...

well played developers

[Horus Heresy]

In the three years or so that I've been playing this game I've rarely posted, but when I read about these plans I just had to say something.

This is INCREDIBLY STUPID.

What is the point of even having a skill tree in the first place? Even with all of the skill tree unlocked to get the double bonus the skills will now be less than half as effective... it just boggles the mind why the devs would mess with something that has served its purpose well from the very start of the game. The bigger mechs are absolutely dependent on those mobility bonus type skills.

Edited by Horus Heresy, 03 November 2015 - 07:38 PM.

[Vashramire]

Current skill system is too extreme in its numbers, causing a harsh grinding experience when starting a new mech and causing heavies/assaults to be more nimble than they rightfully should be. Ideally I think Speed Tweak should be replaced as well or lowered. Getting any mech now requires you to get 20k+ xp just to get it reasonably on par with others that at least have Elites and until you hit that point, the mech does not even closely represent how it will perform in the end.

45% accel and 50% decel are stupid high. 40% twist speed and 30% arm speed as well. This all goes along with massive quirks we see now. These augment mechs far too much and we shouldn't have been ok with it in the first place. The only thing that should be of true value is the module slot which can arguably be just as drastic a game changer as the agility skills if you can't fit Radar Dep. and Seismic on without it.

Skills overall will benefit from these value changes but Ideally we need a new skill system entirely. One that allows you to enhance your personal play style rather than filling all the boxes with xp till you get your shiny.

[McHoshi]

Remember...

This is just a Test and maybe the devs plan to implement some new skills in some later pts?
So please don´t worry to much

[Fredpunk]

I would be fine with a better set of skills to unlock, but just plain nerfs to oblivion is making this whole tree useless. Like a 1-2% is negligible bonus, which is not worth it to work for it, and essentially the only thing remains worthy is the bonus module, but for that alone it is too much grind with such nerfed bonuses...

[Rinkata Prime]

Nerfing skill tree is the BEST THING IN THIS PTS.
This is must go to production server with no time of waiting! RIGHT NOW!

Edited by Rinkata Kimiku, 03 November 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[DoRkcHoPs]

it should be more of a tree based system where you can unlock certain efficiencies higher than others with a maximum set of points

[RedbulOne]

I don't post often but seriously this s*** is getting out of hand. I've paid A LOT of real money to enjoy the game and my mechs and it seems every three months they get drastic changes.. now the skill tree is getting a major nerf??? All the time and energy I've put in to Eliting my mechs will now only result in a 2-5% improvement? I sincerely wish this company would STOP trying to make everything "balanced" - this is not Warcraft - things are fine. If it was Warcraft you are essentially saying "ok the level cap was 50 but we want to "balance" things so we are going to make it 10 instead". Instead of nerfing what we have why not add spaces for MORE modules and abilities that could be earned? What's wrong with those that have worked on their mechs and piloting skills having an advantage over those that don't - I thought the Tier System was suppose to solve that problem so very skilled pilots wouldn't fight against very low skilled pilots? It will not add to game enjoyment or time to kill (TTK) if essentially all you are doing is making everyone slower, less maneuverable, and overheating quicker. This constant upheaval in mech rebalancing is having a very negative impact on game play and player moral - at least my friends and the groups I play with - I used to look forward to different mechs and packages being offered for $$ but now I just don't see the point in spending the money - it won't be the mech that I think I'm buying. Suggestion: leave the mechs alone - focus on better maps and strategies. Stop trying to make all things equal - take a Q from the battletech board games. This is mech warfare not a civil rights movement. Please try to focus on player enjoyment and not taking away things that we have earned and been part of the game since the beginning. Every week it seems there's something new to try and force player to play around the way folks at PGI think we should or where everything is "fair". This isn't the direction I think most of the players want to go and the constant changes are really lowering the games enjoyment - so already now I'm forced to play maps I don't want to play, forced to play game modes I don't enjoy, and now I'm going to drop on Therma with a laser heavy mech and receive a whopping only a 2-5 percent increase in heat dissipation, speed, weapons pinpoint, and turn ability? That should be so much fun firing 3 medium pulse lasers and then shutting down and moving slower. There's my ***** which I'm sure a bunch of people will say "go find another game blah blah.. which I might but I don't want to.. I want to continue to enjoy what I've paid for and to keep certain core aspects the same. I'm all for change - but nerfing everything to make things "fair" etc.. is not positive change IMHO.

[Rinkata Prime]

2 RedbulOne
I have mastered more than 200 mechs in MWO and spend my money for'em and I LIKE the nerf.
This is what they should done from the very beginning.

[Kushko]

Its not really a nerf if it effects every mech in the game. Just a slight change in the way the game works. Also as some others have stated the previous basics once doubled up we're far too good and i welcome this new change.

[ChapeL]

The skill tree generaly makes heavies and assaults too agile. This should fix that issue. The lights and meds ( to a lesser extent ) won't have their responsiveness impacted as much.

[627]

I like it.

Compare a fully mastered mech to a vanilla one without even basics. If you like, add consumables on top of it.

Now you get an idea why new player experience is so bad in this game.

All we need now are diversified skill trees where you can actually specialize your mech into a certain role. Oh and yeah, we'd need different roles, too

[TheCharlatan]

I'm worried for most lights and some mediums. Agility is what they have going for them, and survivability had a huge increase when the mech got elited.
The nerf on agility nerf lights the most (higher base value) and i don't think that was necessary.
I will have to test the effects of the changes, but on paper they look terrible (for lights, i'm ok with the basic principle of the nerfs).

[Widowmaker1981]

TheCharlatan, on 04 November 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

I'm worried for most lights and some mediums. Agility is what they have going for them, and survivability had a huge increase when the mech got elited.
The nerf on agility nerf lights the most (higher base value) and i don't think that was necessary.
I will have to test the effects of the changes, but on paper they look terrible (for lights, i'm ok with the basic principle of the nerfs).

You shouldnt be.

Its big assaults that require these to function. I havent played an assault through basics in over a year, because id rather hit myself in the face with a sledgehammer. Meds and lights are ok before mastery, assaults feel like driving a tree.

[Nightshade24]

Because even the least agile mech turns into a sports car after the basic skills and such. It really pulls away from a feel of a mech and makes most mechs feel the same. I think making mechs feel more like the sluggish war machines they are more than some high performance accrobatic thingies is a good step to move through. Now if you want something fast and agile you require MASC, a large engine, or a lighter mech.

Larger mass of engine on weight class scalling can probably be incorporated. So you are no longer punished for having a huge engine besides what slowly seems like more and more of a waste of tons for speed so mechs like the gargoyle isn't as heavily punished for having a large engine but this will also apply to IS mechs as well.

Most of these upcoming changes often open up possibilities for other things. I also thought that having all skills was a bit to superior to none and it makes grinding them very annoying for those who do not have multi thousand GXP....

I do hope for some skill revamps occuring soon , seeing convergence being removed will help a lot for starters.

[Bud Crue]

Summary of below: People who think the skills nerf proposal is good: please explain in detail why? I don't get it.

Based on what I am reading here and elsewhere:
If I understand correctly the justification for the nerf to the skills tree (yes I know this is just a test) is to address too much nimbleness in the Assaults and possibly Heavies and to make the playing field for newer players feel more balanced?

Really? Have you ever felt that an Atlas is too nimble (elite or not)? How about a Stalker? A Zeus maybe...but only with a big XL engine. Even Victor's with their jump jets, etc don't feel nimble to me. The only Heavies that feel nimble to me are elited Quickdraws, and perhaps the Thunderbolt SE...and that is supposed to be their niche.
As far as new player experience: I was ready to quit the game shortly after starting until I learned about the pilot skills and then my whole experience and desire to play exploded in a positive way. It seems to me that if the skills are nerfed to this extent you take away any motivation for the new player have to aquire more mechs to master or to try new ways of playing (developing skills) as there appears to be no real gain or advantage to doing so. Why spend time and c-bills (or for many: MC and real $) buying three mechs if all I gain is a 5% improvement in specific performance characteristics after "grinding" all three?

From my perspective, all this nerf would do (if implemented) would be to, at best, encourage people to only buy individual mechs and thus perhaps try more variety (No need to buy 2 others of the chassis if no point in mastering. No reason to use MC purchase bundles); and at worst, take away one of the primary reward motivations to keep playing the game (Yes I get the whole "if you need a reward to play, you shouldn't play" pov, but the fact is: reward systems are a predominate mechanism to keep people playing a game. Take away rewards people will stop playing.

So clearly, I am only seeing the negatives here. On the assumption that I am not understanding the justification for this proposal, would some of you who are saying things like "best thing ever" or "I really like the nerf to the skills tree"; please explain why? Perhaps include examples of how the skills tree is OP (or what have you). Thanks. I really do want to understand this.

Edited by Bud Crue, 04 November 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[JustEvil]

Bud Crue, on 04 November 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

Summary of below: People who think the skills nerf proposal is good: please explain in detail why? I don't get it.

Less power/mobility creep. There's not much detail above that. If you don't understand then bad for you.

[L3mming2]

Bud Crue, on 04 November 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

Summary of below: People who think the skills nerf proposal is good: please explain in detail why? I don't get it.

Based on what I am reading here and elsewhere:
If I understand correctly the justification for the nerf to the skills tree (yes I know this is just a test) is to address too much nimbleness in the Assaults and possibly Heavies and to make the playing field for newer players feel more balanced?

Really? Have you ever felt that an Atlas is too nimble (elite or not)? How about a Stalker? A Zeus maybe...but only with a big XL engine. Even Victor's with their jump jets, etc don't feel nimble to me. The only Heavies that feel nimble to me are elited Quickdraws, and perhaps the Thunderbolt SE...and that is supposed to be their niche.
As far as new player experience: I was ready to quit the game shortly after starting until I learned about the pilot skills and then my whole experience and desire to play exploded in a positive way. It seems to me that if the skills are nerfed to this extent you take away any motivation for the new player have to aquire more mechs to master or to try new ways of playing (developing skills) as there appears to be no real gain or advantage to doing so. Why spend time and c-bills (or for many: MC and real $) buying three mechs if all I gain is a 5% improvement in specific performance characteristics after "grinding" all three?

From my perspective, all this nerf would do (if implemented) would be to, at best, encourage people to only buy individual mechs and thus perhaps try more variety (No need to buy 2 others of the chassis if no point in mastering. No reason to use MC purchase bundles); and at worst, take away one of the primary reward motivations to keep playing the game (Yes I get the whole "if you need a reward to play, you shouldn't play" pov, but the fact is: reward systems are a predominate mechanism to keep people playing a game. Take away rewards people will stop playing.

So clearly, I am only seeing the negatives here. On the assumption that I am not understanding the justification for this proposal, would some of you who are saying things like "best thing ever" or "I really like the nerf to the skills tree"; please explain why? Perhaps include examples of how the skills tree is OP (or what have you). Thanks. I really do want to understand this.

clan heavys and assaults are (with the exeption of the dire wolf) are verry mobile...

[Bud Crue]

JustEvil, on 04 November 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Less power/mobility creep. There's not much detail above that. If you don't understand then bad for you.

Not exactly the detail I was hoping for, but thanks. To the point however:

If I read you correctly: the goal is to have less mobility and less power creep, and we will do this by nerfing the skills tree for all mechs and all players? Not scaling. Not engine caps. Not armor values. Not (just) eliminating weapons quirks...but we will look at the skills tree to address power creep and overly mobile mechs?

I guess I just don't see the skills tree as a source of these problems or anywhere near the source of these problems. To me the skills tree is what encourages me to perfect mech builds other than the meta, to invest in premium time, to consider the purchase of mech bundles, etc. I've never thought of it as somehow contributing to power creep (you want to see power creep? see Origins IIc for an example of power creep).

I think some changes to the skills tree are in order (for starters I would make it unique to each mech or at least to each mech class) but nerfing it across the board seems a misplaced focus for combating power creep and overly mobile mechs but I guess it is as good a place to start as any. I just think the ramifications to game play (long term enjoyment) will be pretty big if they go through with it.