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Did Mwo Just Get A Steeper Learning Curve?


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#1 Alistair Winter

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:14 PM

A Steam launch is coming up soon, perhaps even before christmas. Maybe shortly after. Meanwhile, PGI is rebalancing the whole game on multiple levels. Infotech, armor/structure quirks, changing ECM, dynamic laser range, etc.

I wonder if the learning curve for MWO in 2016 is going to be steeper than what most of us veterans experienced in 2012. Maybe too steep, in fact. In particular, I wonder if the new method of balancing lasers is going to be too difficult for new players to understand.

Frankly, I don't think I've ever played any FPS game with such a complicated mechanic for determining range. You've got 6 kinds of lasers per faction (IS or Clan) with 6 different optimal ranges, 6 different maximum ranges, and then you've got completely seperate values for optimal and maximum range without a target lock. Which means you'll often think you're in range, fire all your lasers, only to discover that you barely scratched the paint, due to the fact that you didn't have a target lock first. I don't think I've ever seen anything remotely like that in any other FPS.

Is it too counterintuitive? Or will both veterans and new players learn to deal with this mechanic fairly quickly?

#2 Felio

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:16 PM

Who cares? It's stupid.

#3 Death Proof

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:17 PM

It's a very legitimate concern.


And you're spot on about range complexity; it's absurdly convoluted.

#4 Alan Davion

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:19 PM

Considering MWO is becoming more and more of a BS twitch shooter, the CoD kiddies will probably try it, realize they don't have any god-damned idea what they're looking at, not being old enough to know the lore behind the IS or the Clans... And with the layer upon layer of contrived, useless 'fixes' that have been put into the game, they won't keep it installed for more than a day.

More like two hours actually, before they're looking for the next mindless game to waste their time with.

#5 Sarlic

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:24 PM

I am going to have some fun untill the 31th of December.

I was already on the edge of quitting, After the split i promised myself to give PGI 1 year of 'my time' (Development time) to improve- but i have finally made my decision to move on and ditch this game as soon BattleTech got announced.

As for your thread: I refuse to play some half fix like laser lock. It doenst make sense and it never will. It's bloody dumb and it's a thing it will likely kill the game.(In other words: People are leaving it for more -simplistic- shooters and most of the incompentence from PGI) Atleast in my opinion.

But if this people still support this game by throwing money at the screen. Eh, be my guest.

Edit: to express my feelings here you go:
Posted Image

Edited by Sarlic, 06 November 2015 - 03:05 AM.


#6 BattleBunny

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:25 PM

It took me 2 years to become a decent laser pilot. Havent fired ac's or ppcs much as I cant aim them well at all.

This change will put me back in training. Or I'll get a deskjob in my unit, which is more likely. Either way.

#7 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:27 PM

As I've said before. Complex != deep and involving.

There is a manner of saying that goes "keep it simple, stupid."

And we're at that point now that layer upon layer upon layer of mechanics does not enrich this game. It's actually beginning to detract from it.

Sadly, if Russ, Paul, and Co would spend as much time balancing the underlying issues in this game as they do with coming up with and implementing all these various layers of convoluted mechanics we might actually have a balanced game.

#8 Khobai

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:56 PM

you can have simple interactions be complex. chess for example.

mwo is mostly just overcomplicated because PGI is too lazy to fix core issues properly. they overcomplicate it by slapping bandaid after bandaid on. instead of fixing the underlying core issues.

for example this whole infotech nonsense is just because we dont have properly huge maps and an epic gamemode(s) like we should in order to make sensors/scouting matter in the right ways... so they had to make up infotech and laser focusing nerfs as a way for sensors to matter in a way that makes no sense at all.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2015 - 01:01 PM.


#9 GRiPSViGiL

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:58 PM

Everything is perfectly balanced and steam will be a huge success.


























TEEHEEEE!

#10 Revis Volek

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:04 PM

Its suppose to be a game, fun, exciting, enjoyable...

They dont hit any of those 3 (4) marks....Its not much of a game, its not that fun(some fun but could be more) and it is become less enjoyable and less exciting every day IMO.

They add more mechanics to the game but have yet to fix or even explain any of the previous ones still in place to the new comers. Spooky heat comes to mind...

This is a disconnect between the people making the game and the players because the people making it DONT play the game and i dont think have a very good understanding of how hard it is to get someone with NO BATTLETECH knowledge into the game for more then 30 minutes.

I have friends who tried and quit because "its not fun"...

I will quote my good friend after we played about 5 matches one night....

Friend - "so this is it?"
Me - "yea for the most part, there is CW."
Friend - "when does it get fun?"
Me - "you arent having fun?"
Friend - "its too much like work, if i wanted a second job i would apply for one"

and he logged out...never to return. If we make the game more of a chore to learn the BS stuff, the conveluted mechanics, why this mech suck, what is the meta, Heat Scale, and now we are adding MORE with random laser ranges and target locks being so OP if you dont get one you might as well just not fire?

This game makes me more sad every day....Why cant we have a good game that is FUN? Why is that so hard?

Edited by DarthRevis, 05 November 2015 - 01:09 PM.


#11 Deathlike

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:16 PM

View PostDarthRevis, on 05 November 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Its suppose to be a game, fun, exciting, enjoyable...

They dont hit any of those 3 (4) marks....Its not much of a game, its not that fun(some fun but could be more) and it is become less enjoyable and less exciting every day IMO.

They add more mechanics to the game but have yet to fix or even explain any of the previous ones still in place to the new comers. Spooky heat comes to mind...

This is a disconnect between the people making the game and the players because the people making it DONT play the game and i dont think have a very good understanding of how hard it is to get someone with NO BATTLETECH knowledge into the game for more then 30 minutes.

I have friends who tried and quit because "its not fun"...

I will quote my good friend after we played about 5 matches one night....

Friend - "so this is it?"
Me - "yea for the most part, there is CW."
Friend - "when does it get fun?"
Me - "you arent having fun?"
Friend - "its too much like work, if i wanted a second job i would apply for one"

and he logged out...never to return. If we make the game more of a chore to learn the BS stuff, the conveluted mechanics, why this mech suck, what is the meta, Heat Scale, and now we are adding MORE with random laser ranges and target locks being so OP if you dont get one you might as well just not fire?

This game makes me more sad every day....Why cant we have a good game that is FUN? Why is that so hard?


I remember Protection putting up a comic pic about PGI regarding "fun". It's still true today.

Sad thing is, if you didn't realize that "fun" required you to put up more money instead of sheer enjoyment (that doesn't last that long in this game - unless you took breaks)... well, this is the game we're funding.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 November 2015 - 01:17 PM.


#12 Mister Blastman

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:23 PM

Make it simple. Remove doubled laser ranges and remove convergence. Test from there.

#13 Lugh

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:34 PM

View PostDeath Proof, on 05 November 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

It's a very legitimate concern.


And you're spot on about range complexity; it's absurdly convoluted.

Don't worry if you are in a LOLocust, coming at them from out of the sun at 800m, with a target lock on Tuesday, you'll be fine. But if you are a Lolocust coming from the shade with or without a target lock any other day of the week you'll be LOL OOL.

#14 WarZ

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:35 PM

4v4 fixes a lot of problem :)

You wouldn't need the laser lock anymore. When theres not 10 mechs taking a long range laser stab on you, the severity of laser ranges becomes less of an issue.

#15 Darian DelFord

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:36 PM

Steam Release before Christmas and this game dies. The reviews will be abhorrent.

Not that they wont be anyways..

#16 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:40 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

A Steam launch is coming up soon, perhaps even before christmas. Maybe shortly after. Meanwhile, PGI is rebalancing the whole game on multiple levels. Infotech, armor/structure quirks, changing ECM, dynamic laser range, etc.

I wonder if the learning curve for MWO in 2016 is going to be steeper than what most of us veterans experienced in 2012. Maybe too steep, in fact. In particular, I wonder if the new method of balancing lasers is going to be too difficult for new players to understand.

Frankly, I don't think I've ever played any FPS game with such a complicated mechanic for determining range. You've got 6 kinds of lasers per faction (IS or Clan) with 6 different optimal ranges, 6 different maximum ranges, and then you've got completely seperate values for optimal and maximum range without a target lock. Which means you'll often think you're in range, fire all your lasers, only to discover that you barely scratched the paint, due to the fact that you didn't have a target lock first. I don't think I've ever seen anything remotely like that in any other FPS.

Is it too counterintuitive? Or will both veterans and new players learn to deal with this mechanic fairly quickly?


Recent ill-conceived changes have, for the first time, really made me rethink my future with the game. Too many sesquipedalian mechanics are anti-fun and anti-noob, two things that a game really can't be. Just take away mode/map choice and create casual and ranked game modes - then TT enthusiasts and lore junkies can have fun playing against each other in casual while more competitive players can play against others like them. It sure would help to alleviate some of the balance issues.

#17 M3 SABLE

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:45 PM

Yeah... That damage reduction depending on the lock and distance just gave me anuerism reading about it.

Do we have smart lasers or something? We target lasers.
How is hitting the same mech, same distance away withing optimal or close to optimal range, will now just ignore a portion of damage just because of no lock?






#18 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:49 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 05 November 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

Make it simple. Remove doubled laser ranges and remove convergence. Test from there.


problem is lights will become super op.

I think even simpler solution is to increase armor stats so that everyone can survive an extra round of alpha

#19 Uncl Munkeh

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:49 PM

View PostLord Scarlett Johan, on 05 November 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

As I've said before. Complex != deep and involving.

There is a manner of saying that goes "keep it simple, stupid."

And we're at that point now that layer upon layer upon layer of mechanics does not enrich this game. It's actually beginning to detract from it.

Sadly, if Russ, Paul, and Co would spend as much time balancing the underlying issues in this game as they do with coming up with and implementing all these various layers of convoluted mechanics we might actually have a balanced game.



#Complex!=

Yeah!

Edited by Uncle Monkey, 05 November 2015 - 01:50 PM.


#20 TWIAFU

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 02:00 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

A Steam launch is coming up soon, perhaps even before christmas. Maybe shortly after. Meanwhile, PGI is rebalancing the whole game on multiple levels. Infotech, armor/structure quirks, changing ECM, dynamic laser range, etc.

I wonder if the learning curve for MWO in 2016 is going to be steeper than what most of us veterans experienced in 2012. Maybe too steep, in fact. In particular, I wonder if the new method of balancing lasers is going to be too difficult for new players to understand.

Frankly, I don't think I've ever played any FPS game with such a complicated mechanic for determining range. You've got 6 kinds of lasers per faction (IS or Clan) with 6 different optimal ranges, 6 different maximum ranges, and then you've got completely seperate values for optimal and maximum range without a target lock. Which means you'll often think you're in range, fire all your lasers, only to discover that you barely scratched the paint, due to the fact that you didn't have a target lock first. I don't think I've ever seen anything remotely like that in any other FPS.

Is it too counterintuitive? Or will both veterans and new players learn to deal with this mechanic fairly quickly?


Let's just make ALL weapons, Clan and IS, the same.

Make there is absolutely no difference between the two. So Vets and new players will not have a hard time, make it so ALL weapons fire the same distance from now on, only difference is the damage they do. Small laser will fire the same distance as ER, just do small laser damage. To make it easy for Vets and new players, they dont have to press R any more, just have to hover reticle over target for auto target.

Balance armor tween all weight classes. To make it easy for Vets and new players, all classes, clan and IS, have the same armor, cant be changed, no quirks, and is max. So for now on, all Mediums, Clan and IS, have same armor value.





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