64 replies to this topic

[Torgun]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

If using a base number of your choice (the weapon you're picking) and figuring out what your two ranges are (optimal locked and optimal unlocked) is your definition of "too hard" and "so complicated".... then I hope you're not in charge of something that affects people lives IRL.

In comparison with not having to expose yourself for several seconds to aquire locks with other weapons, lasers will just become bad in comparison. Dual gauss will just become even more the main weapon. Overly complicating things for no good reason is quite pointless. If lasers do too much damage at range, why not just simply shortening the range?

[Alistair Winter]

SethAbercromby, on 05 November 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

That is a weak argument. A game should not require players to study flowcharts just to actually start playing and this is where the game is moving. The weapon list and hardpoint limitations are already a deep subject on their own, add on top of that the (still mostly invisible) ghost heat scale and now the various effective sensor and laser ranges to drive off some sort of meta boogeyman and when I'm expected to do Eve-levels of preperation and flowchart crunching into just choosing a 'Mech to play, what should I tell newcomers into the game? "what you're feeling right now is perfectly normal with that steep of a learning curve. It can only get worse from here"?

Yes, this is the issue.

The problem isn't really that MWO is hard to understand. That's not what 'convoluted' means. A 'steep learning curve' doesn't imply that something requires a high level of intelligence to comprehend. It just means it's complex. And as others have said already, complex mechanics is not a goal in itself. Ideally, you want simple mechanics to create complex gameplay. For example, the rules in boxing are very easy. "Punch the other dude in the gut or the face". But the actual sport is extremely complex in the way it plays out, when you factor in footwork, rhythm, feints, counters, different types of defence, etc.

Good games have simple, elegant solutions. Bad games have complex rules with exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions, like a wobbly house of cards held together by bandaids. And the more exceptions and complex rules you add to the game, the harder it becomes to balance. And then the whole game gradually falls down like dominos. Checkmate.

[Mudhutwarrior]

If I thought for a moment any of their stupid ideas would work I would begin to invest in the game again. So far nothing thye have done the past few patches impress me or get me even slightly excited.

I have come to the conclusion its just a big bag of morons at PGI winging it.

[sycocys]

SethAbercromby, on 05 November 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

That is a weak argument. A game should not require players to study flowcharts just to actually start playing and this is where the game is moving. The weapon list and hardpoint limitations are already a deep subject on their own, add on top of that the (still mostly invisible) ghost heat scale and now the various effective sensor and laser ranges to drive off some sort of meta boogeyman and when I'm expected to do Eve-levels of preperation and flowchart crunching into just choosing a 'Mech to play, what should I tell newcomers into the game? "what you're feeling right now is perfectly normal with that steep of a learning curve. It can only get worse from here"?

Did you play the TT without reading up on at least some of the mechanics of the game?

[TexAce]

Alan Davion, on 05 November 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

Considering MWO is becoming more and more of a BS twitch shooter, the CoD kiddies will probably try it, realize they don't have any god-damned idea what they're looking at, not being old enough to know the lore behind the IS or the Clans... And with the layer upon layer of contrived, useless 'fixes' that have been put into the game, they won't keep it installed for more than a day.

More like two hours actually, before they're looking for the next mindless game to waste their time with.

And I should feel sorry for them why again? Who wants those players here anyway?

[Madcap72]

LOL silly false dichotomy is silly.

Alistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yes, this is the issue.

The problem isn't really that MWO is hard to understand. That's not what 'convoluted' means. A 'steep learning curve' doesn't imply that something requires a high level of intelligence to comprehend. It just means it's complex. And as others have said already, complex mechanics is not a goal in itself. Ideally, you want simple mechanics to create complex gameplay. For example, the rules in boxing are very easy. "Punch the other dude in the gut or the face". But the actual sport is extremely complex in the way it plays out, when you factor in footwork, rhythm, feints, counters, different types of defence, etc.

Good games have simple, elegant solutions. Bad games have complex rules with exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions, like a wobbly house of cards held together by bandaids. And the more exceptions and complex rules you add to the game, the harder it becomes to balance. And then the whole game gradually falls down like dominos. Checkmate.

So, you mean like Battletech TT?

[Alistair Winter]

Madcap72, on 05 November 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

LOL silly false dichotomy is silly.

Such rhetoric.

Madcap72, on 05 November 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

So, you mean like Battletech TT?

I don't know, I never played Battletech TT. Was it in fact a First Person Shooter? Because if it was, that would be the thing that makes your argument valid.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. Hell, if you want to talk about TT games, then my argument still stands. Unnecessarily complex game mechanics make tabletop games bad too. Just look at Warhammer 40,000 2nd edition. That was a nightmare.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 05 November 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[Anarcho]

Arma 3 is one of the most complex things, and there is lots of ppl playing it. It is also on steam. Make it more complex and harder, it will keep the dumb players away back to CoD or BF...

[Dolph Hoskins]

If you were exposed to the system as a first timer it would seem more like the way it works as opposed to a change like it is for people who have been around a while.

I personally don't see how locking your target = full laser damage at range and unlocked targets get 60% laser damage at long range is that complicated to understand. I am pretty neutral about it myself. Seems like it might do some good for the game play honestly.

EDIT: but who the hell am I kidding. This is the same game where charging a gauss rifle is deemed too difficult by some.

Edited by The Ripper13, 05 November 2015 - 04:58 PM.

[Madcap72]

As I said before, I'm going to laugh my ASS off when this opens up to steam and a bunch of hardcore power gamers hit the scene and start smoking self proclaimed "veterans" who've been claiming that the game would be too difficult and have too steep a learning curve.

[Novakaine]

The sad truth here is balance is a damn myth.
Especially here.
I prefer simple to solutions to problems.
However let's do this first.
Clan mechs should be superior to IS mechs not on par but simply superior.
That being said we should never been seeing 12 Clan vs. 12 IS mechs.
PGI should have stuck to lore 1 Clan Star vs 1 IS Battlemech Company.
Or a maybe Star + X, but never 12 V 12.
The Clans keep their superior range and firepower IS simply makes up for it in numbers.
No need to nerf anything, however Puglandia is another story.
Next PGI quit trying to balance weapons and try balancing weapon effects.
You want to play alpha laser warrior online well go right ahead, but your power plant might disagree with you.
Lower speeds, loss in target acquisition etc,
Weapon cooldown is a joke so make it really cost to go nuke.
I guarantee you we will less laser cheese.
You know Novakaine love the lurms however I should not be spam them at will.
Tube reloads should take time and not to mention a virtual dust cloud of smoke obscuring everything.
Not to mention rattling my cockpit like crazy, I can do it but that should really cost me.
Like I stated earlier cooldown is the has been for a longtime real culprit here.
I can go on but you get the gist.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Anarcho, on 05 November 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Arma 3 is one of the most complex things, and there is lots of ppl playing it. It is also on steam. Make it more complex and harder, it will keep the dumb players away back to CoD or BF...

And everyone I know that plays Arma 3 fall into two camps:
-DayZ
-military wannabes/has-beens

I'd hardly call Arma complex or hard. More like really slow and boring. Almost as slow and boring as actually being in the Army.

[MechaBattler]

I prefer additional mechanics. I personally want it to move away from what other games try.

[Xetelian]

I'm not looking forward to ghost damage.

[YourSaviorLegion]

Fierostetz, on 05 November 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

I know I'm replying to my own post

For a long time I've been all about community, spending time at NGNG and Comstar helping new guys learn to play (and getting made fun of by other old schoolers), even spent some time with CWI teaching Sibkins how to play. I've long held the view that if we love this game, and we want it to stick around, we need to help grow the userbase. We grow the userbase by telling people about it. We grow the userbase by making youtube videos. We grow the userbase by finding new players and helping them get the hang of it before they quit - it *used* to feel worth doing, but over the last ~6 months I've noticed a change... toxicity is slowly creeping into my personality, i've become jaded, I'm less tolerant of new guys (and gals)... I don't like that it's happened, but I can identify why - in my endeavors I come across players that use the testing grounds, that spend time learning, that read and watch videos and do everything they can to improve - those ones grow and flourish. I've also come across people that refuse to put in the time, refuse to learn, refuse to admit that there might be a way better than theirs - and those are the people that the game is being balanced for. They can't hang because they don't put in effort or refuse to adapt, so they climb atop their soapboxes and decry the evils of the other players demanding nerfs... and all because they won't put in the time and effort. You *earn* your way through life, and I think our modern society of participation trophies and "there are no losers" mentality has just ruined people. It makes me sad, and I see it ultimately running this game into the ground. People don't know what they want long-term, they only know what they want RIGHT NOW.

Good on you man, I laughed a little though because I'm currently in CWI and I'm helping the newcomers understand how to play the game.

Steam launch will kill this game just look at all of the complaining on the forums right now, that's enough ranting to deter veteran players. I can't get my friends to play this game longer than a day especially when you group queue with only 2 people and you end up versing a 8-12 man

Edited by YourSaviorLegion, 05 November 2015 - 10:49 PM.

[Revis Volek]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

If using a base number of your choice (the weapon you're picking) and figuring out what your two ranges are (optimal locked and optimal unlocked) is your definition of "too hard" and "so complicated".... then I hope you're not in charge of something that affects people lives IRL.

Its not that its just flat out TOO HARD, its that most people wont put the time in to learn a over done mechanic because there is easier more enjoyable stuff out there without the learning curve.

The learning curve has kept many of my friends who aren't battle tech junkies from this game. Like i said though i dont know anyone who given enough time wont get it but why make it hard when its suppose to be fun? It is a game after all....

They need to find the middle road....thats all im saying and i think others are as well. Forcing players to learn mechnics over the corse of weeks will just turn them off from the game all together.

Do i like this...no. DO i agree with it...i wish i didnt have to but most of the world is dumb and stupid so why not put yourself more into that market?

Thats just my thoughts....as entitled and as much of a **** i know i sound like its the truth. There was talk of the path of least resistance in other threads. Why do we think people choices in the title they play will be any different. If Fallout 4 and Halo 5 are just as fun and easier to play why not play them over a game that takes weeks or even months to learn and become just DECENT.

Then you hit T3 and you have to learn the game all over again....

Again, i see i am not the only one who thinks we need to find the middle of the road here.

SethAbercromby, on 05 November 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

That is a weak argument. A game should not require players to study flowcharts just to actually start playing and this is where the game is moving. The weapon list and hardpoint limitations are already a deep subject on their own, add on top of that the (still mostly invisible) ghost heat scale and now the various effective sensor and laser ranges to drive off some sort of meta boogeyman and when I'm expected to do Eve-levels of preperation and flowchart crunching into just choosing a 'Mech to play, what should I tell newcomers into the game? "what you're feeling right now is perfectly normal with that steep of a learning curve. It can only get worse from here"?

[1Grimbane]

Khobai, on 05 November 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

you can have simple interactions be complex. chess for example.

mwo is mostly just overcomplicated because PGI is too lazy to fix core issues properly. they overcomplicate it by slapping bandaid after bandaid on. instead of fixing the underlying core issues.

for example this whole infotech nonsense is just because we dont have properly huge maps and an epic gamemode(s) like we should in order to make sensors/scouting matter in the right ways... so they had to make up infotech and laser focusing nerfs as a way for sensors to matter in a way that makes no sense at all.

band-aids for bullet wounds is the saying i believe

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

DarthRevis, on 05 November 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

-wall of text-

It's about finding the right balance of inputs to outputs. Inputs being player effort and outputs being entertainment.

In this case, for MWO, the laser sh*t is just not fun. At all, there are so many better ways to do this than what they're doing. So again, the input (effort of learning the new system, in this case) I am putting into the game is the same as before, but the output (amount of fun) is dropped.

So far, the only REALLY redeeming quality of he PTS has been the 4v4. THAT SH*T IS FUN YO!

Right now, I'm splitting my time between Diablo 3, MWO, and Armored Warfare.

AW has extremely simple mechanics as a whole compared to MWO, but the interactions are so much more involving (like positioning, shot locations, ammo types, concealment). And thusly, I'm enjoying AW at the same level I enjoyed MWO before all the ******** went down after Open Beta.





On a side note, AW is built on Cryengine and has ammo swapping. Take that as you will.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 06 November 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Madcap72, on 05 November 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

LOL silly false dichotomy is silly.


So, you mean like Battletech TT?

Or KSP, or Arma 3 as someone said above. Or the whole point of modding Skyrim, FO3/FONV, any of those games. Starcraft.

It's a long list.

CoD is popular specifically because it's super-simplified. I'm not trying to bash CoD or anyones opinions on what they like in games but simple gameplay is not fun for everyone. I have no interest in it. At all. Doesn't appeal to me. The laser lock mechanic is less complex than gauss charge-up and even less impactful on weapon performance. It does however nerf lasers without some generic stat shift to produce perfectly predictable meta shifts and new optimal builds.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 November 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

And everyone I know that plays Arma 3 fall into two camps:
-DayZ
-military wannabes/has-beens

I'd hardly call Arma complex or hard. More like really slow and boring. Almost as slow and boring as actually being in the Army.

Kinda the reason behind it...

Simulator games, are often exactly that, slow and boring. But where they make up for that, is when things happen, things tend to get intense.

ever play DCS and end up in a dogfight? You spent 10 minutes prep time for the flight out, 10 minutes getting to the fight, then BOOM, things happen so damn fast your head spins, you get engaged in an awesome fight, then, things calm back down.

DayZ's the same way. You prep, you go out, gather your resources... Often even on a high population server, you may be all alone in a town, nothing but the infected and you for 30+ minutes... then, you hear a single shot, and a ping that lands near you. you're engaged, and you either have to fight or run. DayZ, in fact, is the only game I play, where I'll actually come away shaking after encounters with other players.

Some people LOVE that kind of gameplay. Hell if CW was more about getting out to the fight, I'd still play it. If there were garrison duty missions, I'd do them. Why? Because I LOVE simulation play.

people say the Laser Lock On system doesn't make sense. They argue that you'd just focus the lens focal length to infinity and deal with a baseline damage. Ect, Ect. I'd argue it makes total sense.

The lasers focus through the lenses, to get proper damage on target, your targeting system should be devoted to your current target. Your battlemech does most of the calculations then, Ok X target is Y distnace away, focus the lasers to z focal length." ect.

To those saying it doesn't make sense... I ask you... what does make sense in a game that follows 80's lowfi scifi logic, follows giant walking tanks that barely run because those using them barely remember how to keep them operational, and utilize tech that our current day military can outclass, yet they are considered kings of the battlefield?

I, personally. Welcome the laser changes, and all the changes the re-balance will bring.