144 replies to this topic

[Prussian Havoc]

kongman, on 05 November 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

i love assaults , but its just painful to play them , you cant play them like they are supposed to be played , all you do is get left behind , then when you do get to battle you die in 2 sec .

Tactical Patience - the melding and interleaving of an Assault Mechs advantages at the time and place where smaller and swifter Mechs have developed vulnerabilities in the Enemy's Line of March is a "Graduate" level accomplishment for any Unit.

Racing toward the Enemy is a temptation not easily avoided... enticing the Enemy to unhinge his own line of march so as to achieve local numeric superiority is goal worthy of a Unit's Rivate match Practice Time.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 06 November 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

the only perks for a bigger engine should be faster max speed and more internal heatsinks.

turning speed and torso twist speed should have nothing to do with engine rating. they should be based on the tonnage of the mech.

a mech like the timberwolf should not nearly as fast and agile as a medium mech with a 300 engine just because it has a 375 engine; because all that accomplishes is making medium mechs obsolete. medium mechs should have a very obvious speed/agility advantage over heavies, and currently they dont.

heavies are way too dominant in this game and their relative speed/agility needs to be knocked down a peg.

Couple of problems with this:

1. A medium using an 300 rating engine is faster and more agile than a Timberwolf specifically because those benefits are based on 'Mech tonnage. In fact, a Medium with a 250 rating engine is just as fast and agile, if not more so, as a Timberwolf, which carries an engine rating 125 higher.

2. Engine rating is based on power output potential. More power from the engine means higher everything, not just top speed.

What you're really asking for are the baselines to be lowered so Heavies/Assaults cant reach that level of agility to begin with. The only issue with that is suddenly Lights/Mediums can only be killed by other Lights/Mediums because nothing else has the ability to keep up with them. It's Locusts vs. Dires on a much broader scale... Which may or may not draw more people toward Lights/Mediums but Heavies will take the place of Assaults while Assaults become obsolete. In all likelihood it will not encourage team-oriented game play, which we definitely need more of.

[Catra Lanis]

pwnface, on 06 November 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Actually that tells us absolutely nothing as any mech is capable of killing any other mech. What actually matters is pilot skill. Do you think you can kill elite assault pilots in a light mech? It's a totally different experience when assaults shoot back at you and don't miss.

Actually, skill means less than you think. Why? It's a computer game and so you are restricted by the mechanics in what you can and can not do which means there is less variation than it would be in "reality". There is a limited number of scenarios and moves.

On top of that lights are unrealistically fast and agile, totally ignoring inertia. They move more like an elemental than a 20+ ton machine.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 07 November 2015 - 03:15 AM.

[recsa]

Im a noob pilot, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, but in my experience or better said for my limited MWO skill, Assaults are pretty over, actually when im not in the process of mastering a new chassis, i play on either my DW or my Misery, because ive found them to be the mechs that give me the higher amounts of C-Bills, for me its easier to make "good matches" on them, a mistake on a medium or light makes me go instant poof, while on an assault i use to have enough time to retreat to cover.

I really think giving a "50 tons of weapons" mech maneurability to avoid being repeatdly back stabbed by a light is not a good idea, thats what team mates are for. Even in solo queue. most people use to take care of the whale's back.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Does being awesome at assaults remove-
1)Lights being fast enough to stay on your rear no matter what you do?
2)Lights being able to teleport through you if you trap them with your body or terrain?
3)Lights being fast enough to poke, destroy half your torso, or a third of your CT and get back into cover before you can even shoot?
4)Lights having enough armor to survive multiple alphas from an assault, even when hit head on stationary?


No?

Oh yeah, it's "working as intended"... where "intended" is for this game to cater to COD speed light mechs and arm lock enabled point and click matches.

1)BACK AGAINST A WALL
2)Good point... bit an agile small guy can escape a trap like this
3)I can kill a Light with a solid Alpha IF I time it right.
4)I agree lights are to durable... Unless I am the pilot.

I do pretty darn good in my Atlas or Zeus, Finding my rhythm in other Assaults would take time I don't feel like taking when I have the Atlas and Zeus.

[Weeny Machine]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Does being awesome at assaults remove-
Lights being fast enough to stay on your rear no matter what you do?
Lights being able to teleport through you if you trap them with your body or terrain?
Lights being fast enough to poke, destroy half your torso, or a third of your CT and get back into cover before you can even shoot?
Lights having enough armor to survive multiple alphas from an assault, even when hit head on stationary?


No?

Oh yeah, it's "working as intended"... where "intended" is for this game to cater to COD speed light mechs and arm lock enabled point and click matches.

1. Put your fat arse against an obstacle. If he the light runs off wait a bit because he will sure return. Also: seismic is your friend

2. There is still a 2-3 sec delay. I am sure you can put an alpha into him point blank during that time...

3. Sorry, but lights have mostly laser weaponry. Which means that they have beam duration. During that time you should be able to return fire - if they have pulse lasers they are not too far away either. But that is really a situational awareness problem on your part, sorry. Sure, if you are not aware that the wuzzy is around you get an alpha but if that repeats itself, especially when he pops up at the same spot...again: your issue.

4. It really depends on the mech. What you describe is an ACH and FS thing (and to some degree Spider). My Ravens and Jenners feel infinitely more fragile than the two aforementioned mechs. A Wolfhound has good hitboxes, too, but also cannot keep up with an ACH or FS.
However, I think it is a combination of many factors like: wobbly hitreg / tiny hitzones on ACH & FS / speed of a light mech

I threw a fit, though, when an ACH overheated in front of me and I put point blank 4 ML into its CT...and it was yellow afterwards. Before that it ate sevral LRM salvos.

Neverthless it annoys me that people complain about ALL lights when the 2 main culprits are ACH and FS

King of the Woad, on 05 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

So you'd argue that lights are where they should be in terms of survivability and damage output?

Yup, all lights are ACHs, have their borked hitboxes and their firepower. Generalizations for the win.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 07 November 2015 - 05:49 AM.

[Xoco]

I would love to just escort you big boys when I play Light, but then no one would scout, and our Mediums would just rush blindly to their doom all the time. Not that scouting actually help much in that department, actually.

Maybe I should get back to escorting Assaults again.

[Khobai]

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A medium using an 300 rating engine is faster and more agile than a Timberwolf specifically because those benefits are based on 'Mech tonnage. In fact, a Medium with a 250 rating engine is just as fast and agile, if not more so, as a Timberwolf, which carries an engine rating 125 higher.

Except youre forgetting that IS mediums usually have to use XL. Having to use a standard engine, to have the same durability from not losing a side torso as the timberwolf, is a pretty huge downside.

For the most part, Clan heavies are just as fast and agile as IS mediums using STD engines. And thats wrong. Mediums should not have to take a huge hit to survivability by using XL to gain a speed/agility advantage over clan heavies. That advantage should be inherent and built-in to all mediums.

Thats one of the main reasons why agility needs to be decoupled from engine rating. Also medium mechs and heavy mechs should have different skill trees and medium mechs should get a bigger max speed bonus than heavies.

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What you're really asking for are the baselines to be lowered so Heavies/Assaults cant reach that level of agility to begin with. The only issue with that is suddenly Lights/Mediums can only be killed by other Lights/Mediums because nothing else has the ability to keep up with them

Um no. Thats not at all what im asking for. You obviously didnt read a thing I said.

What im asking for is outliers, like the timberwolf, that have huge engines... to not get a huge bonus for it.

The baseline would remain the same as it is now. Only the extreme cases would be penalized... and theres nothing wrong with that because almost everyone agree timberwolves shouldnt move like medium mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 07 November 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[DarkMetalBlade]

Are assaults useless?? Then you can explain to me why the assault class isn't the least popular in-game, like it is with the lights.

[Khobai]

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Are assaults useless?? Then you can explain to me why the assault class isn't the least popular in-game, like it is with the lights.

they will be useless after the PTR changes

[Endost33L]

Slow mechs just dont cut it anymore in the pub queue. Take one and prepare to get furstrated.

[Koujo]

Assault mechs should be vunerable when caught alone, not the solo pwn-mobile they are now. You should have to support an assault mech with mediums and heavies to protect it from smaller more agile mechs. The way the game is right now is "bigger is better".

[Random Carnage]

Koujo, on 07 November 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Assault mechs should be vunerable when caught alone, not the solo pwn-mobile they are now. You should have to support an assault mech with mediums and heavies to protect it from smaller more agile mechs. The way the game is right now is "bigger is better".

Whatever you're smoking, can I have some?

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 07 November 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Except youre forgetting that IS mediums usually have to use XL. Having to use a standard engine, to have the same durability from not losing a side torso as the timberwolf, is a pretty huge downside.

For the most part, Clan heavies are just as fast and agile as IS mediums using STD engines. And thats wrong. Mediums should not have to take a huge hit to survivability by using XL to gain a speed/agility advantage over clan heavies. That advantage should be inherent and built-in to all mediums.

Clan technology is supposed to be superior to IS in virtually every way. Most IS Mediums can mount a 250-275 STD engine with upwards of 20 tons for weapons and full armor, making them in the very least just as fast and agile with the unsurpassed survivability of an IS STD Engine while not carrying a payload equivalent to that of a Clan Heavy which is exactly how it should be. If you want to go super fast and be super agile then you use an XL; it's what is called a trade off.

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Thats one of the main reasons why agility needs to be decoupled from engine rating.

No.

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Also medium mechs and heavy mechs should have different skill trees and medium mechs should get a bigger max speed bonus than heavies.

Yes.

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Um no. Thats not at all what im asking for. You obviously didnt read a thing I said.

More like you have no idea what you said... Here it is again:

"the only perks for a bigger engine should be faster max speed and more internal heatsinks

turning speed and torso twist speed should have nothing to do with engine rating. they should be based on the tonnage of the mech.


a mech like the timberwolf should not nearly as fast and agile as a medium mech with a 300 engine just because it has a 375 engine; because all that accomplishes is making medium mechs obsolete. medium mechs should have a very obvious speed/agility advantage over heavies, and currently they dont.

heavies are way too dominant in this game and their relative speed/agility needs to be knocked down a peg."

Which means this:

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What im asking for is outliers, like the timberwolf, that have huge engines... to not get a huge bonus for it.

Is not what you said. You said in no specific terms that all Mechs should have agility decoupled from Engine size. I've already stated the issue with that, I'm not going to repeat myself.

As I've already stated a Medium with a 300 engine is faster and more agile than any Clan Heavy. Whether or not they need to use an XL or STD to do it is the trade off you make. Mediums are not supposed to have a significant advantage in speed or maneuverability, which is a comparison to be made between IS and IS, Clan and Clan... Not IS and Clan. They're also not supposed to carry a weapon payload comparable to Heavies either, which some builds across many of the different Medium chassis can do without using an XL. What's more is the Timberwolf is supposed to be fast and agile for a Heavy because it has a huge engine, just like the Gargoyle for Assaults. If it had a 300 or 325 instead then it might be more manageable in terms of out-maneuvering them, but they'd have more tonnage for weapons to slap you around with... Making them a faster, more agile Dire Wolf-esque chassis and we all know the only thing keeping those in line is their lack of mobility.

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The baseline would remain the same as it is now. Only the extreme cases would be penalized... and theres nothing wrong with that because almost everyone agree timberwolves shouldnt move like medium mechs.

You went from generalized to only those 'Mechs subject to public opinion. I'm not a fan of playing Timbers and killing them is relatively easy when you go for the easily hit Legs or Side Torsos. That people think they shouldnt 'move like mediums' is irrelevant. Many of those same people wouldn't admit that in reality a Timber can be killed by an IS Medium that knows what it's doing, like the Blackjack, Huncback, Crab, Wolverine or Griffin, to name a few... Largely because the Timber can and does get out-maneuvered by them. Because people dont know how is another issue entirely.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 07 November 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Khobai]

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No, that's exactly how it should be. Clan technology is supposed to be superior to IS in virtually every way. Most IS Mediums can mount a 250-275STD engine with 10+ tons for weapons and full armor, making them faster and more agile while not carrying a payload equivalent to that of a Clan Heavy - which IS Mediums shouldnt be carrying that kind of firepower to begin with.

not when its 12v12. when you have equal numbers of mechs on both teams clan tech has to be equal to IS tech or the game simply wont be balanced.

you need to get over the antiquated notion that clan tech should be superior. because the game can never be balanced that way. If PGI had gone the 12v10 route then it might be possible for clan tech to be better. But they didnt. And now Clan tech and IS tech have to be the same power level in order to balance things.

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Is not what you said. You said in no specific terms that all Mechs should have agility decoupled from Engine size.

Its exactly what I said.

Obviously nobody wants assaults nerfed to the point where they cant fight lights. Thats implied.

Decoupling agility from engine rating would only really nerf extreme cases where mechs take way bigger engines than their weight classes typically should have.

Edited by Khobai, 07 November 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[Johny Rocket]

2 points

1. Assaults aren't dead your skills/tactics are. Brawling's dead,
Max engine DPS builds in mechs that carry the big stuff up high and defensive weapons in the arms. Mauler is the perfect example, low arms with good energy hardpoints, limited rotation but excellent turn speed for its size, if you go near max engine+elite.

Biggest point learn to ******* aim.

2. Lights are exactly where they are supposed to be other than a few hit reg issues on mechs not needing named. They are small and can equip huge engines. You put a 350 ci engine a 4bl carb in a 75 Impala and eh, you put that same engine in a 75 Monza coupe and you'll scrape your back bumper on the asphalt, if your tires grip.

WLF1 160kph elited, yup stupid fast, it's sporting a max enging cap of 315, which comes at a huge price leaving almost nothing for weapons and heatsinks in an all energy mech. Not one shot killing anyone from behind unless you're dumb enough to strip your back armor to nill.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 07 November 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

not when its 12v12. clan tech has to be equal to IS tech. because theres equal numbers of mechs on each team.

you need to get over the idea that clan tech should be superior. because the game can neverbe balanced that way if both teams have an equal number of mechs.

And you need to get over the idea that 'superior' is a concept that has a huge impact on game play in this case. Clan Mechs having better Speed/Agility in their Medium and Heavy tonnage classes has significantly less to do with why they're good than their Weapons and XL Engine durability. Significantly less.

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Its exactly what I said.

Obviously nobody wants assaults nerfed to the point where they cant fight lights. Thats implied.

It's not what you said. What you said and what you meant were clearly not the same. Work on that. Also work on not insulting others because you can't clearly convey your intention and meaning.

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Decoupling agility from engine rating would only nerf extreme cases where mechs take way bigger engines than their weight classes typically should have.

Well the Timberwolf typically has a 375 XL Engine and it is typically fast and agile for a Heavy 'Mech. As it stands, engine agility bonuses are granted based on tonnage. As I've said, you clearly want the baselines changed. /shrug

[orion343]

*skipping over three pages of bickering to just reply to the OP/topic*

Really? I've been running a couple of Maulers and having fun; some matches the team falls apart and you get rolled by lights, but other times your lights/meds hold the line and you can pump out 700+ damage. It really, really comes down to teamwork. If you can get (most of) your group working together, then every class has its job and a balanced team is nice. And I'm not playing with a dedicated clan or anything, usually it just takes one or two guys not being douchebags over the voicechat to gel the team together. If you're looking for a "lone wolf/beat everything" build, then you're not going to find it in assaults...or anything else, for that matter. This isn't that game.

[Khobai]

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Clan Mechs having better Speed/Agility in their Medium and Heavy tonnage classes has significantly less to do with why they're good than their Weapons and XL Engine durability. Significantly less.

so youre saying clan heavies going 90kph isnt a contributing factor to why therye so good? lmao. of course it is...

the timberwolf with a standard engine would be just as durable as one with a CXL. But it wouldnt be as fast. what makes the timberwolf so good is the combination of standard engine durability AND good speed/agility.

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It's not what you said.

Again its exactly what I said. And ive since clarified my meaning twice. get over it.

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Well the Timberwolf typically has a 375 XL Engine and it is typically fast and agile for a Heavy 'Mech

and it shouldnt be fast or agile. because its not balanced. theres a reason its one of the best mechs in the game. because theres virtually no downside to it.

even if you made IS XL and CXL equal, there would still be a problem with fast heavies having too much speed/agility.

[Submersible Fox]

Here's a thought, allow duo drops in normal queue, games like the arcade tank games show that two or even three people unless they're already considerably better players than the rest don't really change the tide of the battle, and in MWO that could be a fix for assaults, letting them pair up.

Anyways I have mixed feelings about this, I do fine in my King Crabs without being up engined, but I felt like the Fatlas was useless and I sold both of mine. Similarly I feel like my Dires are more or less useless, though I did have a fantastic game the other day where, as the last mech on the team, in my Dire, against a medium, a Metabolt, and two lights, I won, the last mech was a Raven who tried to out play me, the catch is, I've played arcade tank games since the first one was in beta, I knew his tricks, every single time he tried to flank me, I already had my guns turned toward him, but the lagshield saved him from so many gauss shots, he still died, and without seriously damaging me either, for the record I didn't have the sensor that detects other mechs, I just asked myself, "If I was that light, how would I try to flank me." And lo and behold he did exactly what I would have done.

So, yeah anyways I do think assaults need a little bit of love, nothing HUGE, but SOMETHING needs to be done, maybe something as simple as +10-20 torso armour for all assaults or something, or, I dunno, fixing lag shielding on lights, like we were asking for since before the Spider was added, that would benefit EVERYONE, or at least buffing the quirks overall quirks on assaults. Not all changes need to be drastic and dramatic, small changes and tweeks could seriously help assaults.