179 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

Mystere, on 07 November 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Don't you think there's something wrong with this statement.

Its a fact. Laser Vomit is much more forgiving with aim. You could half botch a laser shot and correct it. A miss with a PPC is a total miss.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

So we already had that with ECM to some greater or lesser degree. Also PTS 1. If IW has no direct impact on weapon performance it's 99% irrelevant. It certainly doesn't create 'role warfare'. If IW does not directly translate into damage done/damage received/weapon range then all it does is mildly affect the meta. It doesn't create scouting and it has little, if any, real impact on win/loss of the match.

Which is why I brought this up before - we either want a relevant IW or we don't. If it's relevant it's going to directly affect combat. If it's not, it's fluff. If we don't want it then we're keeping the game we have just with some minor stat tweaks unless some previously unconsidered, undiscussed idea for IW comes forward.

You mean the bit where IW has a direct impact on combat? Your use of locks and positioning directly impacts weapon performance? The bit that actually makes IW relevant? That's what you don't want? Or you just want it in some way that doesn't actually change how you play in any real way outside of minor weapon stat tweaks?

As to your first bit....

"I'd rather have IW in a way that makes sense. You know, like you don't know where your enemy is located or what kind of composition they're sending at you...meanwhile they know all of those things about you and then use that knowledge to gank you where/when you aren't ready for it."

Do you know that you're joking? You do know that's never, in any way, going to be relevant to the game. That's not 'IW'. That's scouting - which we already know is worthless because it doesn't really affect the outcome of the game. You know that. You absolutely know that's a joke. Either IW affects combat or it's fluff. We spent the last year playing CW with Clan mechs under perpetual ECM, most of us can play the game 100% effectively with no hud, just crosshairs drawn on the monitor with a dry erase marker.

So the 'no IW' player preference won under the argument that it was either too complex or 'not fun' or 'was too much change' or whatever. There's no point at which I'm going to cheer for that. Saying 'we'll have IW but it'll just be about finding the enemy'.... there is no way that you're not brighter than that. PGI would be better served spending their time making new paint colors. You know that. Do I need to pull up your comments from PTS 1 (which were right next to mine) saying so when they introduced IW as just sensor effects?

So when you talk about IW you're wanting fluff. Nothing relevant, if someone wasted one of the 12 slots on your team with a 'scout' you'd laugh at them and tell them to bring something useful.

That's not information warfare, that's weapon buffs with a different label plastered over it. It's time to call a spade a spade.

Under that system, sensor quirks are pretty much just weapon quirks because they directly make your guns more powerful...something that you don't like if I remember correctly.


For scouting not being that great, it's because our maps tend to have specific locations that are good and certain ones that aren't, thus we have a pretty good idea of where the red team is going to be. And with the current state of the game, we also have a fairly good idea of what mechs/guns they'll be bringing. And even then, scouting can technically be done by any mech because anybody with any mech can just look across the map to find the red team (barring huge amounts of fog and other spammed obstructions that PGI has taken a liking to lately).

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

-
complex
-

You keep using that word, but I'm sure that it means what you think it means.

Waiting a few moments for a magical dorito that makes your guns stronger isn't complex.

[ChronoBear]

FupDup, on 07 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

You keep using that word, but I'm sure that it means what you think it means.

Waiting a few moments for a magical dorito that makes your guns stronger isn't complex.

This so far is my favorite post of the day, and accurate. *slow clap*

[Dirkdaring]

Xetelian, on 06 November 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

Too bad. so sad.

I'd accept a 20% or even 40% nerf to the range on clan lasers, or a raise in heat, or less damage.

Locking onto a target for full damage is a counter intuitive mechanic, especially when targets are moving around each other.

Why? Clan lasers are supposed to go farther, for more damage and less heat. It's the whole flippin' point of clans! Now with that being said, thats not the reason they were implemented badly in gameplay.

[FupDup]

Dirkdaring, on 07 November 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Why? Clan lasers are supposed to go farther, for more damage and less heat. It's the whole flippin' point of clans! Now with that being said, thats not the reason they were implemented badly in gameplay.

If by "supposed to" you're referring to their Tabletop stats, they actually had the same heat instead of less heat.

But for MWO's purposes, having one faction be a direct upgrade over the other causes issues...

Edited by FupDup, 07 November 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Naduk]

wow this is ********
the TTK on the PTS was brilliant
lasers not taking your face off from 1000m with out effort was a great change

the game was about to be so much better
but no your all just going to cry and moan and bludgeon russ into submission every time something is going to lower your stupidly massive max range alpha strikes
you people suck

[Kira Onime]

Naduk, on 07 November 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

wow this is ********
the TTK on the PTS was brilliant
lasers not taking your face off from 1000m with out effort was a great change

the game was about to be so much better
but no your all just going to cry and moan and bludgeon russ into submission every time something is going to lower your stupidly massive max range alpha strikes
you people suck

You sound salty.

[ChronoBear]

FupDup, on 07 November 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

If by "supposed to" you're referring to their Tabletop stats, they actually had the same heat instead of less heat.

But for MWO's purposes, having one faction be a direct upgrade over the other causes issues...

There are downsides to clans, people like to forget that they are Endo FF and XL locked. Clans mech are also primarily energy focused and have no quirks of Negative quirks effecting beam length or heat.

Clan weapons specifically energy should be better than IS. There just needs to be a counter. If PGI refuses to make it number of mechs on a side (which it should be) then AC or Missiles should get some attention on IS mechs. This doesnt even touch that we should have a COF and a Meaningful Heat Scale....

[FupDup]

ChronoBear, on 07 November 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

There are downsides to clans, people like to forget that they are Endo FF and XL locked. Clans mech are also primarily energy focused and have no quirks of Negative quirks effecting beam length or heat.

There aren't any negative heat and beam duration quirks on the IS side I thought? The SCR and TBR on the Clams side do have very minor beam duration and cooldown negaquirks, but as said they're fairly minor (easy to ignore).

For the locking of items, it's a downside if you're locked with bad items but it's trivial if you're locked with good items. For example, the Kit Fox's locked XL180 is terrible, but the Hellbringer's locked XL325 is very good. Having locked Standard Structure on the Summoner is poopy, while having locked Endo-Steel on the Stormcrow is perfect. Etc.

[Naduk]

Kira Onime, on 07 November 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

You sound salty.

thats because i bloody am
for the first time in forever we were getting changes to make mechs last longer
if i wanted to play COD , i would fraking play COD
I WOULD NOT BE PLAYING THIS IF I WANTED TO PLAY COD !

it was a nerf massive nerf in one sense
and yet it was not at all in another
all you had to do was look at your enemy and press R before you attack
its it really that fraking hard to get your heads around
no
its not
its even easy to explain for the idiots who say its counter intuitive
the targeting computer needs to know what range it should be setting the focus point of the lasers to be
it would be just like positioning a projector, to close and its tiny and blurry, to far and its also blurry and massively stretched
a weapons grade laser on a rapidly moving body would need to have the ability to change its focus to remain relevant to its target

it would of worked side by side with convergence if they can ever get that to work with HSR

perhaps the numbers of range or settings were a little harsh, perhaps it needed tuning in some other way
but the idea and changes it was to bring to the game were solid

this community blows my mind
the crys for more complexity and sim aspects to be included in the game are constant
but any time something is about to change or does change you all spit the dummy
the toys are out of the pram and down the street
no thought is given to the benefits and improvements that can come
look at how long its taken to get the voting system in and people are fighting tooth and nail to remove it , because screw the global player experience benefits , wa wa wa they want their mode and they want it now

your damn right im salty
i wanted a game where it all weapons have their pro's and con's
and its not just laser fest online
having a cannon or missile rack sitting next to your lasers should be desirable
yet in the current realm other things are dumped just for more heat sinks and more lasers

they weigh less
have more range
use less slots

no other weapon compares to how lasers are setup
lore often states they are the work horse of the current battlefield
but thats mostly because of their light weight and lack of ammo requirements
if you want to do real damage you add in something else

the PTS was the closest this game as felt to Battletech since the closed beta
and the cry babies get their way again

you know whats going to happen next
people are going to get their LRM on after the ecm change comes through
and the crying will start all over again and the change will either be rescinded or LRM's will be nerfed into the ground
and we will be back to laser warrior online

[Kira Onime]

Naduk, on 07 November 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

-snip-

Anything else to add or are you done?

[Naduk]

Kira Onime, on 07 November 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Anything else to add or are you done?

there is a lot more
but there is no point
so yeah im done

thanks for reading Kira

Edited by Naduk, 07 November 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[Necromantion]

Kira Onime, on 06 November 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

He should not be the one users go to.
If balance is the question, Paul, as lead balance developer, should be the one we go to.

Except we all know how much of a knucklehead paul is

[rolly]

Lord0fHats, on 06 November 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

Yes. Acceptable faith levels restored.

Perhaps you mean "Minimum Viable Faith Levels"?

I'm happy about this reversal. I didn't sit well with me and glad to see that there is at least some "heeding of the masses" going on here.

Edited by rolly, 07 November 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[Bluttrunken]

Kira Onime said:

You sound salty.

Kira Onime, on 07 November 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Anything else to add or are you done?

Is there, sometimes, somewhere, something constructive coming out of your mouth/hand/brain or are you always that useless?

[Kira Onime]

k05h3lk1n, on 07 November 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Is there, sometimes, somewhere, something constructive coming out of your mouth/hand/brain or are you always that useless?

Are you?

[Wintersdark]

ChronoBear, on 07 November 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

There are downsides to clans, people like to forget that they are Endo FF and XL locked. Clans mech are also primarily energy focused and have no quirks of Negative quirks effecting beam length or heat.

Clan mechs are only energy focused because energy weapons are best right now.

Locked FF and Endo isn't bad for those that have both: in 99% of circumstances, just like how practically every IS mech has Endosteel, spending those 14 slots on that much free tonnage is absolutely worth it.

Locked FF and ES is only a disadvantage to the mechs without it (direwolf excepted) in which case it just wrecks an otherwise good mech.

Locked FF and ES was and is a ridiculously poor balancing idea. It just arbitrarily nerfs some mechs. It in no way helps to balance the factions. Same with the engines: it just determines which mechs are good, and which are bad, but it doesn't actually affect faction balance.

Quote

Clan weapons specifically energy should be better than IS. There just needs to be a counter. If PGI refuses to make it number of mechs on a side (which it should be) then AC or Missiles should get some attention on IS mechs. This doesnt even touch that we should have a COF and a Meaningful Heat Scale....

It can't be the number of mechs on a side for a huge number of reasons. Mechs per side is way too coarse, it'd be even harder to balance the factions with assymetric sides, and that's not even mentioning how the solo queue isn't faction restricted. Faction restricting it isn't possible either, as that would massively impair matchmaking - we're already just barely getting by (or not at all, by some people's reckoning). Making matches of faction vs. faction only (even keeping IS v. IS or Clan v Clan as options) would cost severely in either wait times or match quality or both.

We SHOULD have a dynamic COF based on speed/heat/jets/etc, and a meaningful heat scale, though.

[Mcgral18]

Naduk, on 07 November 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

wow this is ********
the TTK on the PTS was brilliant
lasers not taking your face off from 1000m with out effort was a great change

the game was about to be so much better
but no your all just going to cry and moan and bludgeon russ into submission every time something is going to lower your stupidly massive max range alpha strikes
you people suck

There was greater TTK because there were 1/3s as many guns; that's the only reason.
Or you grabbed a 1500HP Atlas.

The game was not better; it was about to get so much worse. Thank Mecha Cthuhlu PGI actually listened.
You balance the weapons BY BALANCING THE BLOODY WEAPONS, not by adding Ghost Mechanics.
Too much damage? Tune the bloody damage down.
Hey, let's give that a try:

damage="7.0"

Oh look..the cERML deals 7 damage. Perhaps a touch too high. How ever can we fix that?

damage="6.0"

Praise Mecha Cthulu, it's fixed. HOW BLOODY EASY WAS THAT?!

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 November 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mystere, on 07 November 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Don't you think there's something wrong with this statement.

He's right, it's a fact.

Is it bad if a meta-friendly weapon system is more accessible to the general playerbase?

Or do you not realize that was one of the biggest reasons people cried about poptarts (most of them couldn't do it well).



I've watched Kin3ticX outscore multiple good players using lasers while he plays a Gauss+1xCERPPC Summoner poptart.

CW, Regular matches, Team queue. Doesn't matter.

He'll outplay those players with their lasers, he's just saying it's more accessible to the general playerbase.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 November 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Mcgral18, on 07 November 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Oh look..the cERML deals 7 damage. Perhaps a touch too high. How ever can we fix that?

damage="6.0"

Praise Mecha Cthulu, it's fixed. HOW BLOODY EASY WAS THAT?!

You broke lore, Russ's twitter will never recover