17 replies to this topic

[mikerso]

I will be downloading the pts client and testing as soon as I can get a day off.

My question is:

What compensation will players that paid real money for hero, champion, package, limited edition mechs with weapons quirks get for having their mechs lose viability?

I understand the need to find even ground between IS and Clan mechs, but many of us bought hero and champion mechs based on their weapons quirks and hard points. Removing weapons quirks from those mechs would be a slap in the faces of loyal players.

For other players reading this, buffing the weapons is not a compensation for this. It is like someone paying extra for Bluetooth in their car and finding out it doesn't work. When they go back to the dealership they install an aux port instead and call it good sonce it is now standard on all their cars.

Removing weapons quirks from mechs people payed real money for, then saying it is okay because they buffed weapons for everyone is not an honest way to do business.


I know it is just a part of the PTS server, but I want PGI to understand how I feel on this topic.

[Lostdragon]

You will get nothing. Balance changes have to be made, there is nothing that ever said all the quirks would be set in stone.

[mikerso]

Lostdragon, on 07 November 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

You will get nothing. Balance changes have to be made, there is nothing that ever said all the quirks would be set in stone.

But is there something when purchasing a mech that said they weren't? A newer player purchasing a hero mech most likely won't remember the quirk buffs in the beginning, and they won't remember the first time the stalker 4N buffs got nerfed. So they would not know that the quirks that make their shiny new mech better could go away.

[Amerante]

You get custom geo, skin and 30% cbill boost, these arent chainging. And basicly that is the hero mech.

[sycocys]

smh

[mikerso]

Amerante, on 07 November 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

You get custom geo, skin and 30% cbill boost, these arent chainging. And basicly that is the hero mech.

Maybe I'm a bit different then cause I don't care about the skin. I turn all my heroes the default green so they blend into the crowd. The c bill boost / xp boosts are welcome, and expected in a pay to play it mech. Custom geo sure cool.

But I always look at the mech as if it could help me with my gameplay in one form or another, and quirks are part of that equation.

[Famous]

You also seem to be forgetting that Hero 'Mechs have different weapon hard points that the other chassis variants. That right there will always separate them from the CBill versions

[mikerso]

Famous, on 07 November 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

You also seem to be forgetting that Hero 'Mechs have different weapon hard points that the other chassis variants. That right there will always separate them from the CBill versions

You are correct, but without quirks some of the hero mechs will not function as beautifully.

Best example I can think of is the huggin. The advantage the huggin brings to the field is in the quirks. Extra range along with the faster cool down on the dual srm4. Take that away and you are somewhere between a raven 3l and 4x. Which without quirks may be better options due to the energy range.

[Lostdragon]

mikerso, on 07 November 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

But is there something when purchasing a mech that said they weren't? A newer player purchasing a hero mech most likely won't remember the quirk buffs in the beginning, and they won't remember the first time the stalker 4N buffs got nerfed. So they would not know that the quirks that make their shiny new mech better could go away.

From the TOS:

Quote

2. Content. We may, from time to time at our sole discretion and without notice or liability, create, amend, change, or delete any content from the PGI Offerings.

[mikerso]

Lostdragon, on 07 November 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

From the TOS:

So in all reality PGI could say Clan mechs started this whole rebalancing issue so let's pull all clan mechs from the game.

Lostdragon, on 07 November 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

From the TOS:

So in all reality PGI could say Clan mechs started this whole rebalancing issue so let's pull all clan mechs from the game.

[The Lost Boy]

They could.

[mikerso]

Lemming of the BDA, on 07 November 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

They could.

But they hopefully won't, because it would be bad for business. And that is hopefully the point I can put across with dequirking hero, champion, limited edition, and etc. Mechs that come from purchases.

[DivineEvil]

mikerso, on 07 November 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

But they hopefully won't, because it would be bad for business. And that is hopefully the point I can put across with dequirking hero, champion, limited edition, and etc. Mechs that come from purchases.

They won't, because they have invested a lot of workload into producing that content and paying their employees money for that. In no way that means, that they're bound to keep any of that content to perform as it were originally implemented.

Hero mechs always were and are the variants of basic mechs with 30% C-Bill boost and unique visual scheme as an additional style perk. They never were intended to perform better than basic mechs or to be bound into specific loadouts. The whole Quirk shabang, that was further magnified by the initially overpowered Clan mechs, has achieved critically unfavorable results. Clans mechs will be toned down, and most if not all specific weapon quirks and exceeding general quirks will be removed. By purchasing Hero mechs for the reason of the overpowered quirks, you've made the same mistake as the Clanfags, that purchased Clan mechs believing they will forever overpower the IS mechs. The end-goal is to make all mechs to perform accordingly to their tonnage trough different roles and playstyles.

Personally, as long as my Huginn will be as tanky as it is on PTS, or will recieve something comparatively significant, I'm fine with it - same way as with Death Knell, Arrow, Loup de'Guerre and Ilya Muromets I own. With that, I can consider using alternative builds with LRMs or heavier SRM racks, while on present live server there's absolutely not a single reason to run anything aside from 2xSRM4. That quirk inclination is what actually makes roughly a half of all the Hero mechs completely useless and undesirable

In my hopes of the ideal mech balance, PGI will make Hero mechs to be a "black sheep" off the standard variants. If basic Cataphracts would be a tank-brawler chassis with Protection quirks, an Ilya Muromets could be a Firepower variants with strong general weapon quirks, or if basic Blackjacks would be Firepower-based chassie, the Arrow could be a Mobility-focused mech, or Sensor-hog with ninja-style quirks, etc. It's all depends on PGI's idea about how they see quirks in post-rebalance MWO.

Either way, quirks are there to make variants of the same mech and mechs of the same weight category to be different from one-another, not to make some mechs plainly better than others, and not to stick them into strict bounds of efficiency. Hero mechs are mechs you buy for MCs to each more C-Bills with, nothing else.

Edited by DivineEvil, 08 November 2015 - 05:06 AM.

[mikerso]

DivineEvil, on 08 November 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

They won't, because they have invested a lot of workload into producing that content and paying their employees money for that. In no way that means, that they're bound to keep any of that content to perform as it were originally implemented.

I agree, I believe PGI does not want to take steps backwards after the investment they have made.

DivineEvil, on 08 November 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Hero mechs always were and are the variants of basic mechs with 30% C-Bill boost and unique visual scheme as an additional style perk. They never were intended to perform better than basic mechs or to be bound into specific loadouts. The whole Quirk shabang, that was further magnified by the initially overpowered Clan mechs, has achieved critically unfavorable results. Clans mechs will be toned down, and most if not all specific weapon quirks and exceeding general quirks will be removed. By purchasing Hero mechs for the reason of the overpowered quirks, you've made the same mistake as the Clanfags, that purchased Clan mechs believing they will forever overpower the IS mechs. The end-goal is to make all mechs to perform accordingly to their tonnage trough different roles and playstyles.

But does a mech have to be exactly what everyone says it should be? As stated above I didn't buy my hero mechs for the skin, or even the CBill bonus. I bought my hero mechs for the build variation, and the quirks are part of that variation. You don't buy a car without looking under the hood. I do agree that there are players that flock to certain builds due to their abilities. Clan wars is evidence of this (stalker 4n, thunderwubs, firestarters, timber wolves, artic cheetah, dakka whales). But this will happen with quirks or without. It will just be a different mech. I personally do not see myself as an amazing player. Have I had 600 damage rounds, yes. In my heroes, no. I do not see them as over powered by any means.

DivineEvil, on 08 November 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Personally, as long as my Huginn will be as tanky as it is on PTS, or will recieve something comparatively significant, I'm fine with it - same way as with Death Knell, Arrow, Loup de'Guerre and Ilya Muromets I own. With that, I can consider using alternative builds with LRMs or heavier SRM racks, while on present live server there's absolutely not a single reason to run anything aside from 2xSRM4. That quirk inclination is what actually makes roughly a half of all the Hero mechs completely useless and undesirable

In my hopes of the ideal mech balance, PGI will make Hero mechs to be a "black sheep" off the standard variants. If basic Cataphracts would be a tank-brawler chassis with Protection quirks, an Ilya Muromets could be a Firepower variants with strong general weapon quirks, or if basic Blackjacks would be Firepower-based chassie, the Arrow could be a Mobility-focused mech, or Sensor-hog with ninja-style quirks, etc. It's all depends on PGI's idea about how they see quirks in post-rebalance MWO.

This I agree having a quirk for a specific weapon as on the huggin relegated it to a certain build. I can see going with a general weapons quirk over the specific weapon quirk.

Quirks, though, as you stated are a form of uniqueness. Why can't the heroes, limiteds, and general cash only mechs remain unique in this fashion. Buying a mech specifically for the CBill bonus is not my thing.

DivineEvil, on 08 November 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Either way, quirks are there to make variants of the same mech and mechs of the same weight category to be different from one-another, not to make some mechs plainly better than others, and not to stick them into strict bounds of efficiency. Hero mechs are mechs you buy for MCs to each more C-Bills with, nothing else.

Agreed quirks were not meant to make standout mechs, but they did. This was not necessarily the fault of PGI, but the players testing out ingenious builds. Wiping the slate and buffing weapons will simply make every mech a stalker 4n. Why can't there be a level of unique in the quirks.

For reference:

My hero mechs ember, huggin, pirates bane, sparky, Ilya Muromets, and misery.

I have many limited editions and champions. Too many to list.

Also a thank you to everyone who has posted so far. Keep posting comments and thoughts. The best way to get the answer is to show PGI the constructive conversation.

[Lostdragon]

Quirks were doomed from the start because they were never anything more than a bandaid on a wound that requires 100 stitches or possibly amputation. The fact that 25-50% improvement quirks were needed to make some mechs good is just a sign of what is glaringly obvious to most: there are many mechs that underperform becauase they have some combination of bad hitboxes, bad hardpoints, bad scaling, and bad agility.

PGI painted themselves into a corner with weapons like the AC20 because two is devastating but one is underwhelming without the help quirks provided. They now have the onerous challenge of trying to figure out how to make things like one AC20 on a HBK viable while not making mechs than can use two AC20s unstoppable killing machines.

In my opinion the only way to do this is to revamp core systems. It is going to take some kind of reworked heat system and/or accuracy/convergence penalty system. It is also likely going to require slaughtering some sacred cows by doing things like adding heat to the Gauss Rifle and more heat to other ballistics.

[mikerso]

Lostdragon, on 08 November 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Quirks were doomed from the start because they were never anything more than a bandaid on a wound that requires 100 stitches or possibly amputation. The fact that 25-50% improvement quirks were needed to make some mechs good is just a sign of what is glaringly obvious to most: there are many mechs that underperform becauase they have some combination of bad hitboxes, bad hardpoints, bad scaling, and bad agility.

PGI painted themselves into a corner with weapons like the AC20 because two is devastating but one is underwhelming without the help quirks provided. They now have the onerous challenge of trying to figure out how to make things like one AC20 on a HBK viable while not making mechs than can use two AC20s unstoppable killing machines.

In my opinion the only way to do this is to revamp core systems. It is going to take some kind of reworked heat system and/or accuracy/convergence penalty system. It is also likely going to require slaughtering some sacred cows by doing things like adding heat to the Gauss Rifle and more heat to other ballistics.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Quirks were intended to fix a larger wound than what they should have been applied to.

On the other side of the table quirks took relatively mediocre mechs and gave them a chance to shine in different facets. Also reason would say that not all mechs are created as equals.

Sorry for car analogies, but it is what I know lol.

Two trucks are made, both are the same tonnage however one has a towing transmission with no four wheel drive. The other has no towing transmission but has four wheel drive. Each one can do the job of the other to an extent, but when they are doing their own job they excel. That is how I see quirks. They are part of the truck.

Also in the case of saying some mechs are designed poorly. Aren't there cars that are designed poorly. The best mechs to learn piloting, are the worst fighters.

I think you are spot on in pointing out problems with weapons, and I do love that they are addressing weapons issues in PTS. I believe this is the quickest path to helping give some equality across the boards. It will also require the least amount of coding. Adjusting weapons, but leaving quirks alone will leave those mechs as viable while helping others.

[Khobai]

Quote

What compensation will players that paid real money for hero, champion, package, limited edition mechs with weapons quirks get for having their mechs lose viability?

lol compensation

youre not getting any compensation

[DivineEvil]

mikerso, on 08 November 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

But does a mech have to be exactly what everyone says it should be? As stated above I didn't buy my hero mechs for the skin, or even the CBill bonus. I bought my hero mechs for the build variation, and the quirks are part of that variation.

Quirks as they are now is part which reduces variation. Nobody ever stated, that all quirks are going to be discarded. The ones, which were removing build variation within the mech itself will have to go. Other than that, each variant has some build variation to it. Skin and C-Bill bonus is what you pay MCs for.

Quote

You don't buy a car without looking under the hood. I do agree that there are players that flock to certain builds due to their abilities. Clan wars is evidence of this (stalker 4n, thunderwubs, firestarters, timber wolves, artic cheetah, dakka whales). But this will happen with quirks or without. It will just be a different mech. I personally do not see myself as an amazing player. Have I had 600 damage rounds, yes. In my heroes, no. I do not see them as over powered by any means.

Quirks were originally made in a wrong way. First of all, quirks were distributed by the community-designed "tier system", which were based on player preferences, not on the actual comparison. Secondly, value of quirks given to mechs were related to their position in the weight class, thus for example Dragons and Quickdraws had larger quirks, than Orions and Cataphracts because they were occupying the lower part of the Heavy class, which with CW dropdecks and group weight limits is completely irrevelant now. After that, some specific variants has recieved some very odd buffs, trying to differentiate them using limited variety of quirks implemented.

Without quirks in their current state, any Stalker, Thunderbolt, Firestarter and Clan Omni-Pods and chassie will be viable in their own regard, and work better or worse for particular playstyle. We're left to hope, that PGI actually figured out how to make it right. Regardless, particular weapon quirks is what made it impossible above all else.

Quote

This I agree having a quirk for a specific weapon as on the huggin relegated it to a certain build. I can see going with a general weapons quirk over the specific weapon quirk.

Quirks, though, as you stated are a form of uniqueness. Why can't the heroes, limiteds, and general cash only mechs remain unique in this fashion. Buying a mech specifically for the CBill bonus is not my thing.

Because it will make some of them desirable and some don't. Why can't every mech be unique in some fashion? That's what the rebalance was about to begin with.

Quote

Agreed quirks were not meant to make standout mechs, but they did. This was not necessarily the fault of PGI, but the players testing out ingenious builds. Wiping the slate and buffing weapons will simply make every mech a stalker 4n. Why can't there be a level of unique in the quirks.

There expected to be unique sets of quirks. Again, nodody ever said, that quirks will be removed. Their persistence and different layouts and models tested on PTS at the moment is a proof of that. But your initial question is about weapon quirks on Hero mechs. Weapon quirks were never sold together with Hero mechs; on the promo-videos, while PGi were doing those, there were a clear set of data given: name, engine, speed, weapons. No quirks. If weapon quirks makes people build one Hero mech with one loadout only, while ignoring other Hero mechs, only because they do not have good weapon quirks, this system is invalid.

Quote

For reference:


My hero mechs ember, huggin, pirates bane, sparky, Ilya Muromets, and misery.

Death Knell, Ember, Huginn, Arrow, Loup'de'Guerre, Flame and Ilya Muromets. Out of those, IIRC, only Arrow is one I've bought after quirks were implemented.

Edited by DivineEvil, 08 November 2015 - 12:19 PM.