81 replies to this topic

[Kira Onime]

Hotthedd, on 08 November 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

You have never heard a magazine referred to as a clip? Really? Where I am from (Louisiana) we use the term clip all of the time.

Then you're all wrong.

[Mystere]

maxdest, on 08 November 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

PGI have said that changing automatic and dynamic convergence is not easy due to HSR, and they are reluctant to change.

FTFY.

[Omaha]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Not sure if quite that bad mcgral.

The expensive part of the calculation should be the initial hit detection since that involves a geometric projection from the point of fire to the point of impact. The rest is just changing some variables and running a comparison vs an rng for crit probability. I wouldn't be surprised if that was only 0.1 or 0.01 times as expensive, or even less. So I'm guessing you'll only add very little to the server load.

Isnt this already the case? I mean there is weapon glow on hit areas, and if you hit with a gauss the effects of that hit are animated in the actual direction of the fired ballistic. IE, the sparks that fly about are animated in the same direction of the projectile.

I would like to see, splash dmg to other areas, but how about making that splash a cone of fire, then its chances of effected components are randomized some, also add some effects of high heat alpha.

I love the pinpoint alpha, and really dont wanna see changes, it makes it exciting when you do pull off those well placed shots.

But I gotta say when I alpha, its not all at the same time, I fire weapon groups in close succession. Limiting my heat output.

Edited by Omaha, 08 November 2015 - 03:37 PM.

[oldradagast]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:

People who want cone of fire continue to harp on the issue and feel like everyone else who is a "real Battletech player" agrees with them since everyone who doesn't agree is just an fps player.

In reality there are large numbers of players who disagree with them and all PGI sees is $$ so a viable solution will have to be a comprise.

With all due respect, putting all your damage on one pixel by clicking a button:

- is NOT true to Battletech. Remember that whole "rolling to hit a location" part of the game? Without some level of damage scatter, the entire armor and mech section system falls apart. You may as well have one section and a single hitpoint pool

- is NOT skill. Twitch reflexes is not skill. Copy-pasting a pinpoint alpha build from the internet is NOT skill.

- is NOT fun. Seriously, if people want to play "click'n'kill," there are countless other games out there based solely on twitch reflexes, meta-builds, graphics setting games, and map memorization. Don't muck up MWO with that stuff. Maybe some people don't think this idiotic pinpoint alpha meta isn't a problem, but it is. It kills mech variety, makes TTK laughably low, and discourages anyone who's older or with slower reflexes or poorer internet connections from playing the game... and quite frankly, MWO can't afford to lose any more players just because some people enjoy a twitch shooter with minimal real skill or player interaction required.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 November 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[Gamuray]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

But then people will have even more problems with ECM mechs and Arctic Cheetahs.

Going by the PTS, 3 second delay on detection. Still better that it temporarily postpones sensor lock and thus pinpoint damage, which could be overcome via the following that all have trade-offs:
-1 ton tag addition (visual location known to enemy)
-beagle (very limited range, half ton more than tag)
-counter ecm (goodbye to your own 3 second delay)
-ppc shot (7 tons, reload, location possibly known, but damaging item)

Better than ECM making a mech invisible and counteracting a whole weapon system: >LRM'S< Making it more anti-weapon, since people have eyes to see mechs anyways (esp in group que). This way it's entirely anti-information (that info being convergence distance and damage/loadout status) and the information it inhibits would have made weapons function with more precision, but not cease functioning entirely (except lrm's for 3 seconds delay.. poor, poor lrms). In fact, I would argue that with this system, it would keep ECM more valuable for it's 3 second lock delay, but not AS valuable as it was as a radar/lrm/lock invisibility cloak.

[Kira Onime]

oldradagast, on 08 November 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

With all due respect, putting all your damage on one pixel by clicking a button:

1 is NOT true to Battletech.

2 is NOT skill.

3 is NOT fun.

1- Opinion- reading these forums, everybody has their opinion on what "battletech is".

2- Twitch reflexes on their own won't get you very far in any kind of FPS. High reflexes won't save your life if you can't shoot.

3- Opinion

[Kjudoon]

Kira Onime, on 08 November 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

1- Opinion- reading these forums, everybody has their opinion on what "battletech is".

2- Twitch reflexes on their own won't get you very far in any kind of FPS. High reflexes won't save your life if you can't shoot.

3- Opinion

I don't see anyone here posting anything their own opinion of what facts are. The point he was making is that this variation of the game has strayed far from both original design and intent, potentially of the videogame series as well.

[Kira Onime]

Kjudoon, on 08 November 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I don't see anyone here posting anything their own opinion of what facts are. The point he was making is that this variation of the game has strayed far from both original design and intent, potentially of the videogame series as well.

Designs and intents change over the course of a series and what one considers "fun" is an opinion.

[JigglyMoobs]

Gamuray, on 08 November 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

Going by the PTS, 3 second delay on detection. Still better that it temporarily postpones sensor lock and thus pinpoint damage, which could be overcome via the following that all have trade-offs:
-1 ton tag addition (visual location known to enemy)
-beagle (very limited range, half ton more than tag)
-counter ecm (goodbye to your own 3 second delay)
-ppc shot (7 tons, reload, location possibly known, but damaging item)

somebody who gives you 3 seconds to lock and fire simply isn't very goo. if they are good they've already finished firing and gone back behind cover.

[JigglyMoobs]

oldradagast, on 08 November 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

With all due respect, putting all your damage on one pixel by clicking a button:

- is NOT skill. Twitch reflexes is not skill. Copy-pasting a pinpoint alpha build from the internet is NOT skill.

- is NOT fun. Seriously, if people want to play &quot;click'n'kill,&quot; there are countless other games out there based solely on twitch reflexes, meta-builds, graphics setting games, and map memorization. Don't muck up MWO with that stuff. Maybe some people don't think this idiotic pinpoint alpha meta isn't a problem, but it is. It kills mech variety, makes TTK laughably low, and discourages anyone who's older or with slower reflexes or poorer internet connections from playing the game... and quite frankly, MWO can't afford to lose any more players just because some people enjoy a twitch shooter with minimal real skill or player interaction required.

I love it. some times I see these same comments in game, typically it hapeens like this:


I'm moving my mech from fighting position to fighting position, getting pin point shots on people while avoiding or spreading incoming damage, while also looking at my tact map, reconning enemy positions and reporting Intel and directing team traffic over VoIP and in the middle of all this we find some enemy lrm boat or horribad build walking around the map in the worst most isolated tactical position imaginable... and call out: focus XYZ lrm boat charlie 4 CT, or something similar as he's nearly insta exploded by fire from half our team while shooting his missiles ino the ground in front of himself in panic.

Our team pays no attention as we move on to the next threat.

at the end of the game we see in chat: pin point op no skill or stupid NASCAR team...

ignoring for a second that such persons are usually responsible for their extremely rapid ttk via bad tactics or bad positioning, and ignoring the fact that people mocking click and kill aiming usually couldn't a good job of it even if the entire match depended on it, what do they call all of the intel gathering, positioning, maneuvering and team coordination that chased away their team and enabled their rapid execution in the first place?

was that just no skill twitch reflex? or was it skill so far beyond their level that it doesn't even register in their comprehension?

[Kjudoon]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

I love it. some times I see these same comments in game, typically it hapeens like this:


I'm moving my mech from fighting position to fighting position, getting pin point shots on people while avoiding or spreading incoming damage, while also looking at my tact map, reconning enemy positions and reporting Intel and directing team traffic over VoIP and in the middle of all this we find some enemy lrm boat or horribad build walking around the map in the worst most isolated tactical position imaginable... and call out: focus XYZ lrm boat charlie 4 CT, or something similar as he's nearly insta exploded by fire from half our team while shooting his missiles ino the ground in front of himself in panic.

Our team pays no attention as we move on to the next threat.

at the end of the game we see in chat: pin point op no skill or stupid NASCAR team...

ignoring for a second that such persons are usually responsible for their extremely rapid ttk via bad tactics or bad positioning, and ignoring the fact that people mocking click and kill aiming usually couldn't a good job of it even if the entire match depended on it, what do they call all of the intel gathering, positioning, maneuvering and team coordination that chased away their team and enabled their rapid execution in the first place?

was that just no skill twitch reflex? or was it skill so far beyond their level that it doesn't even register in their comprehension?

A couple of things to consider.

First off, valid point on teamwork as a skill. It is a low level skill to 'monkey see, monkey do' with everyone else together. It wins football championships, wars and videogames. It takes considerable time playing together to get to know your battle buddy in most cases. More time than the average player here has, let alone the people with lives, or the pugs without friends. No more skill than a bowling team that's played a few leagues together. Their individual achievement is still a case of reflex muscle memory and honing technique. The skill is in knowing the technique and when to apply it. The rest is equivalent to a dog drooling when the bell rings: Reflex.

But... without pinpoint, that same LRMboat would not die instantly because you cannot insta explode anyone. Of course, in your example that LRMboat was open CT.

People are not responsible for their own TTK when they make a first peak around the corner and before they can get back one second later they go from perfectly healthy to losing a side torso and half their weapons... possibly killed... in a medium or heavy from 1-2 mechs. No, that's a game mechanic flaw. That's a human scale war shooter that I don't think more than a small minority of people here play or enjoy. That is "Point and Click"/"Press Space Bar to Win" gaming at it's worst.

When you consider skill, ask yourself this: Does skill diminish over time when it is used, or decrease? Does reflex when used over time increase or decrease? Skill does not diminish as long as it is used. In fact, it often increases slowly the older you get. Reflex plateaus but inevitably drops off due to age at a fairly early age because the body deteriorates.

When I know of 13 year olds who are Tier 1 players here but a 50 year old with the same amount of time, setup and mechs is a Tier 4 or 3, It's obvious to me that this is the same kind of difference a 40 year old quarterback has to a 20 year old one. Sure they got the skill knowledge stored up to be far better than the 20 year old. But the body has betrayed the mind over time. Skill, barring brain injury or lack of use does not deteriorate as a general rule. Reflexes deterioration cannot be stopped because it's physical and physical isn't skill.

PGI is leaning too heavy on twitch and leaving their core audience behind. PC players are older and less inclined to play shooters. Sorry that's a market share historical fact. You can look it up. Shooters are made for young kids and adults on consoles and their market share by genre over the last two years show it time and time again. This is why you are seeing a huge backlash in the community against esports, arena shooter design and a strong trend towards simulation. Because that's what the PC audience is.

Now you can disbelieve all you want, or hate what I have to say, but these are some things you have to consider when talking about the foundation of what this game is and what its flaws are.

[JigglyMoobs]

Kjudoon, on 08 November 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

A couple of things to consider.

First off, valid point on teamwork as a skill. It is a low level skill to 'monkey see, monkey do' with everyone else together. It wins football championships, wars and videogames. It takes considerable time playing together to get to know your battle buddy in most cases. More time than the average player here has, let alone the people with lives, or the pugs without friends. No more skill than a bowling team that's played a few leagues together. Their individual achievement is still a case of reflex muscle memory and honing technique. The skill is in knowing the technique and when to apply it. The rest is equivalent to a dog drooling when the bell rings: Reflex.

Oh, right, of course, so would you like to nerf teamwork too? Maybe the team converging on one point is op. Maybe we ought to have a mechanism where there's a magical force field to push us apart? Or mechs standing together overheat because they can't dissipated heat?

Quote

But... without pinpoint, that same LRMboat would not die instantly because you cannot insta explode anyone. Of course, in your example that LRMboat was open CT.

Right, maybe he would have lived a whole second longer.

Quote

People are not responsible for their own TTK when they make a first peak around the corner and before they can get back one second later they go from perfectly healthy to losing a side torso and half their weapons... possibly killed... in a medium or heavy from 1-2 mechs. No, that's a game mechanic flaw. That's a human scale war shooter that I don't think more than a small minority of people here play or enjoy. That is &quot;Point and Click&quot;/&quot;Press Space Bar to Win&quot; gaming at it's worst.

And that's happened to you how many times?

Im pretty sure that I've never actually managed to peek for just one second with my Timby other than on a jump, and its pretty seldom that I immediately get focused down by 2 mechs during my much longer than 1 second peaks. So when you say a second, you probably meant 10.

Now here's a question: how quickly do you die when you peak in CS:Go?

Quote

When you consider skill, ask yourself this: Does skill diminish over time when it is used, or decrease? Does reflex when used over time increase or decrease? Skill does not diminish as long as it is used. In fact, it often increases slowly the older you get. Reflex plateaus but inevitably drops off due to age at a fairly early age because the body deteriorates.

When I know of 13 year olds who are Tier 1 players here but a 50 year old with the same amount of time, setup and mechs is a Tier 4 or 3, It's obvious to me that this is the same kind of difference a 40 year old quarterback has to a 20 year old one. Sure they got the skill knowledge stored up to be far better than the 20 year old. But the body has betrayed the mind over time. Skill, barring brain injury or lack of use does not deteriorate as a general rule. Reflexes deterioration cannot be stopped because it's physical and physical isn't skill.

So you are saying 15 year old musicians should never have more skill than 50 year old fumblers? Got it.

Quote

PGI is leaning too heavy on twitch and leaving their core audience behind. PC players are older and less inclined to play shooters. Sorry that's a market share historical fact. You can look it up. Shooters are made for young kids and adults on consoles and their market share by genre over the last two years show it time and time again. This is why you are seeing a huge backlash in the community against esports, arena shooter design and a strong trend towards simulation. Because that's what the PC audience is.

Have you ever even played a true twitch game?

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 09 November 2015 - 02:49 AM.

[pwnface]

It really bothers me when people call MWO a twitch shooter. Your twitch reflexes don't really matter in this game unless you are playing at the highest level. The amount of time players typically have to aim at enemy mechs is ridiculously long even in typical T1 public drops.

The problem is there are essentially two groups playing MWO.

One group is the die hard battletech fan who wants a simulation experience. Typically a bit older, grew up playing table top and single player Mechwarrior titles where their big stompy robot felt invincible. People in this group are more likely to hold lore as sacred but don't realize tabletop and lore values don't make for a good computer game experience.

The second group are the meta-tryhard esports jockeys who min-max the **** out of everything. These are the guys who will split their Gauss ammo into 1/2 ton bins to help crit pad whatever gauss/laser/ppc build they have dreamed up to kill stuff as efficiently as possible.

These two groups blame each other for everything wrong with the game. In reality, these two groups need each other to keep this game alive. However, balance should absolutely be dictated by the min-maxers who actually understand what will break the game. In doing so, it would actually make for a more balanced game for everyone as there would be a multitude of efficient builds rather than being pigeonholed into a specific meta that is just flat out better than other options.

People cried about poptarting and PPFLD, now people are crying about laser vomit. I dream of a MWO where there isn't such a distinct advantage for one particular style over another and I'm pretty sure other competitive minded players wish for the same.

Edited by pwnface, 09 November 2015 - 02:45 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Simbacca, on 08 November 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

I think coding wise this is probably the simplest solution to implement. After all there is the Gauss Rifle firing limitation (two of them) and Ghost Heat. Though for the greatest simplicity, any alpha strike has a 50% chance to shut down the mech for 2 or so seconds before it can power back up. This assumes a player does not hit the heat cap. If they exceed the heat cap by a certain margin (aka the DireStar) then there is a high chance of the mech exploding on its first and only alpha strike. Thus there is definitely a significant risk for the player.

This solution uses existing game code so it should be relatively easy to implement.

Idiotic. Define Alpha Strike please. Is it the lore definition of 'Firing all weapons on the mech'? - if so, if your system was to be implented, every single mech would simply pay the 0.5 ton small laser/MG tax to have 1 weapon they never fire, thus no Alpha strike. If not, define it precisely in a way that doesnt allow a similar workaround.

hint: you wont be able to.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

Oh, right, of course, so would you like to nerf teamwork too? Maybe the team converging on one point is op. Maybe we ought to have a mechanism where there's a magical force field to push us apart? Or mechs standing together overheat because they can't dissipated heat?

No, and don't attempt to put asinine words in my mouth.

Quote

Right, maybe he would have lived a whole second longer.

And that one second, depending on positioning and skill of that target might be all the difference for that person. Arguing that because the length of increase in the TTK in an extreme outlier situation is relatively insignificant does not negate the principle as a whole.

Quote

Now here's a question: how quickly do you die when you peak in CS:Go?

How many thousands of dollars are you willing to pay me to touch such a lothesome game? I don't play those games because I loathe those types of games. The last one I enjoyed or played regularly was Quake.

Quote

Im pretty sure that I've never actually managed to peek for just one second with my Timby other than on a jump, and its pretty seldom that I immediately get focused down by 2 mechs during my much longer than 1 second peaks. So when you say a second, you probably meant 10.

If a Timby would die in that scenario, it wouldn't be used because that thing is so broken and we all know that Tier 1 don't generally use mechs that aren't broken or meta. Often because they have no choice. Others because they cannot bear losing. I've had it happen in Orions fully armored through the front ST and no, there wasn't an ammo explosion.

Quote

So you are saying 15 year old musicians should never have more skill than 50 year old fumblers? Got it.

False comparison and conclusion. You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said. Since I have a classical musical background I've been privileged to work with child prodigies, directors and composers who have knighthoods for their skill and achievements. This gives me a real life understanding of what potential versus actualized skill is.

Compare say an NFL quarterback like Johnny Unitas, or Brett Favre or Dan Marino. At the beginning of their career they don't have the same knowledge and skill set that is available to them when they were in their late 30's and 40's. But they had the reflexes to let them get away with stuff that they could not later in life. Even musically, Satchemo (Louis Armstrong for those with know knowledge of modern music history) who was a child prodigy and maintained a high level of skill late into his life suffered an injury to his lip he never recovered from. Oh, he had the knowledge and the genius, but it had to be left to younger musicians to pull it off and pass the mantle, but even they were standing on the shoulders of giants. At 15 when he was playing trumpet in the slums of New Orleans he could not have done what he did when he was old.

You are trying to compare unequal potential in order to discredit the point. I am saying that a 15 year old will not have the same skill set as a 40 year old if both started at age 13. Experience is the superior tutor. Now if you have both a 15 year old and a 40 year old starting at the same point of time, the 15 year old, given equal skill will constantly outperform the 40 year old when it comes down to it because hand eye coordination is higher thanks to youth.

You know, your statement reminds me of how I thought the world worked at age 18. I truly believed that I knew everything I needed to know and that when I turned 21 I would be equal in intellect and in social stature as well to all adults. I was so quick to be offended when my words or desires did not carry any weight because I did not have enough life experience to know how naive they really were. How little I knew, and it took 3 years of working in the real world to really get that foolish heart and ego kicked out of me and learn that wisdom is not intellect and stature cannot be earned with egotism.

Ultimately, a 15 year old musician does not have the same skills or wisdom or perspective as a 40 year old musician. How gifted they are only determines their potential over time. Life is not a zero sum game and at 15, you haven't really even begun to learn. But we're not comparing someone at 40 who can't carry a tune in a bucket versus a child prodigy. We're comparing peers.

Quote

Have you ever even played a true twitch game?

Yes, and never again. This is as close to twitch as I will come. When I was 15, the twitchiest game around was the original Star Wars and Robotron. I cut my teeth on the original Wolfenstein 3d on a 486 33Mhz PC. I played Halo 1 once in a while when visiting a friends house, but that and Quake were the last ones I played. It's a chapter of my gaming life I closed. They aren't intelligent enough, no matter how fantastic they may look. Most of them are b grade movies in which you move the protagonist and if I'm going to be playing the game, I want something more than what 99% of those games can offer.

Regardless, the fact that I don't play nor enjoy twitch games does not invalidate any of my points. I also know how to read market research and know what my friends children are playing... the ones who will let their children play those games. A good example right there of my age providing me skills a probably younger man hasn't gained yet... Unless you're in your late 40s.

Edited by Kjudoon, 09 November 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Kira Onime, on 08 November 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Then you're all wrong.

You should hear some of the terms and pronunciations we have for lots of things, then.
We call a can of Pepsi a "Coke".

[Hotthedd]

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 November 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

I must have misinterpreted the context of your reply. You said, &quot;What is unrealistic is expecting pinpoint precision while firing multiple weapons, while moving, and/or while your machine is overheating.&quot; I'll assume you were trying to say, &quot;Unrealistic for BattleTech,&quot; since you seem to agree with me that it is realistic to today's modern war machines, but doesn't align with BT lore. Got it, moving on...

Correct. Unrealistic for the BT universe. But this game is played in the BT universe, so that should be important.

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 November 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

What exactly is your definition of &quot;aim&quot; then? Does it depend if a player uses a mouse, joystick, or controller? because all of those are still point and click mechanisms. Every FPS is point and click, regardless if there's CoF, bullet drop, etc. The fact of the matter is some players can point and click better than other players, and this point and click mechanism has been referred to as &quot;aim&quot; pretty much since FPS games have existed.

I would define aiming a weapon and firing it in real life as aiming and firing. I'm not asking for PGI to make it as hard to do with precision in the game as it is in real life, I just get annoyed by the kids who brag about their "leet aiming skillz" when it is clear they have never actually done so in actuality.

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 November 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

I've heard of magazines being referred to as clips plenty of times before, but never in a professional course of instruction. Both military and civilian shooting courses I've attended if you so much as say the term clip the instructor will correct you right on the spot. We'll generally say, &quot;Going to the range to shoot a few mags,&quot; to shorten it. Could be like the soda vs. pop argument, and it's based on area. I'm just saying I've never heard magazines being referred to as clips in any instructional setting.

Think we're straying off from the topic though

I understand. I was not talking about any instructional setting, gun ranges (Oops, I called it a gun) down here at least, do not require an instructor unless you are under 18 years old.

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 November 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

My main issue comes from the fact I've been playing MechWarrior since MW2, and have been playing competitive PvP since MW3 on the MSN Gaming Zone. While MW3 &quot;sort-of&quot; solved the convergence issue by needing to lag shoot, the truth is every official MW game to be released has had perfect convergence.

And those games were designed to be PvE. Your AI opponent does not care if the game is made easier. I would like the game to move toward the simulation aspect (of the fictional 31st century).

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 November 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

If it's within the scope of PGI's abilities, I wouldn't mind seeing non-perfect convergence, as long as it's not based on RNG mechanics like a CoF. Cone of Fire works for fast shooting guns like most of the weapons in CoD or CS:GO, but for the single shot nature and long cooldown times for the majority of weapons in MWO, CoF just won't work the way people envision it will. Good players get screwed with high heat and wasted ammunition when the game decides their CT shot misses high and right, and bad players get rewarded with random hits when they didn't even fire on target. It would practically drive the meta to nothing but UAC spam, which while that may seem nice with how sick we are of the current meta, will quickly get very, very annoying.

Again, a CoF is not random. Your shots will all land within the cone. It is a probability simulation brought on by firing multiple weapons at once, or my moving, or by heat affecting the machine. I am an advocate of chain fired weapons being precise, the idea is to give negative effects (imprecision)for firing multiple weapons at once. Your argument assumes that good players will be penalized while bad players will be rewarded. In reality the difference will be the same, as both players are using the same mechanic. Hopefully the meta can change to chain fire being as advantageous as alpha striking, regardless of the weapon.

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 November 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

Imagine if every laser boat you see nowadays was instead a dual, triple, or quad UAC-5 boat. Think of how much screen shake and performance reducing particle effects that will induce. Now imagine that being the new meta for over a year.

As long as those shots are either spread due to alpha, or chain fired precisely, but giving the target time to adjust, I would welcome it.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

since when are laser point an click

xD did everyone forget they are damage over time

if people really want to complain about being snap shopped group fired, which was probably their fault to start with




**------just have the lasers to reduced damage at the earlier ticks of damage and/or increase the duration at least of non pulse lasers



there you go even bloody easier to torso twist and or make up for the mistake

most people will likely still complain due to poor positioning though

[Hotthedd]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Precision in a modern laser weapons system soon to be in service in the next decade will let you take the largest map in mwo, put a jet on the other side of that map at 15000 ft, and while flying around at 500 mph, it will be able to put 100000 watts on a quarter sized spot that is locked on the very center of a single laser turret of a light mech running around at full speed. think about that.

And that has to do with the BattleTech universe HOW?

I think you would just like a generic Mecha gundam game more than one set in the BT universe.

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

argumeNTS about how its realistic are untenable. its a game mechanism of tabletop and a crutch for people with less mouse aim.

A crutch? I would think that only having to aim ONCE to put several weapons on a target is much easier than having to aim and fire several times to get the same precision.

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

if its so easy why don't you just deal with it?

I DO deal with it. And I am as guilty as the next person for using it. What I do not like is HAVING to use it to be fully effective. There is no downside to group fire or alpha striking. There should be a trade-off between chain-fire and group fire.

JigglyMoobs, on 08 November 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

human beings aren't built to aim six things at once. its a trivial for a machine if its designed right. the reason modern weapon systems don't do it is because it would ve idiotic to carry six weapons instead of a single big one. hence we have tanks, and yes, they do aim very well and automatically on the move

Human beings are the ones piloting the 'mechs. What is trivial for war machines today in our reality is NOT trivial for 'mechs in the war ravaged BattleTech universe.
With perfect convergence, you really AREN'T taking six weapons instead of a single big one, you get to combine them into a single weapon by firing them all at once and hitting the same spot.
The mechanics of firing multiple weapons at once should not be so easy, and the game should reflect that.

[Almond Brown]

Mister Blastman, on 08 November 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

I think one solution they need to consider to fix alpha striking is capacitor/power loop limits. I've said this once and will say it again...

Alpha Strike...

a. Risk of capacitor overload -> random weapons overload and short out and disabled for some time
b. and/or Significantly slower re-charge after alpha strike due to power loop insufficiency
c. and/or instrument brownouts and 'mech slowdown
d. and/or power harness failure -> capacitor output reduced permanently for rest of drop

Alpha striking should be risky. Firing six to eight lasers at one time (if they are medium or large) should tax your system and there should be penalties for it.

Different weapons should have different power demands to balance them. And likewise, to prevent autocannons from getting out of hand due to their lower draw, other weapons like flamers and ppcs should have the ability to randomly cook off ammo due to "hotspotting" so it is a risk to go ultra dakka.

This game needs creative thinking to make logical balance solutions. It doesn't need to be convoluted--it just needs to make sense.

Interesting to Test, but like ALL other changes folks ***** about, when that Test change is implemented NO ONE shows to Test and just continue to *****. The PTS is/was empty this weekend, yet many new changes were in play, least of which was 4V4 (Lance) battles. Yup, Lance battles were online on the PTS. To bad SFA folks showed up...