85 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Render, on 11 November 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

This game has 2 types of players.
Type A : Founders and Fans of BattleTech / MechWarrior.
Type B : Everyone else.

You're missing at least 1:





...
<runs for the hills>

[FrontGuard]

Mudhutwarrior, on 11 November 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

I don't buy into the two types mode. That is way over generalizing. Just consider the differnt personalities in your own life.

That kind of black and white/ on or off does nothing to help the issues in the end. It just makes wider gulfs in division.

It seems to me that if people know that there are other people who may not think the same will only help them get allong.
... help MWO players get to know each other.
that there are old MW PC games, some of them years older than the age of some of the players.
I dont see how that makes the gulfs wider.

[AbyssalTyrant]

The counter argument to that is lore induced imbalances that are apparent when you look at all the issues the clans brought to the game. This is not a tabletop game , booting the game takes me to an arena based shooter. Therefore it taking steps to be a better shooter and a better game will probably do more for the game in the long run then having having massive discrepencies for the sake of an IP based on a total different genre. Even HBS said they are making Battletech a fun video game first and will bend the lore/rules to ensure it.

[pwnface]

Bud Crue, on 11 November 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

If indeed the goal is to balance the game play to the point where clans and IS are equal, and all mechs are equal in game value regardless of weight, I just don't see the point of playing more than maybe three or four mechs (and even that assumes that the classes retain some distinction of play style). It seems intuitively obvious to me that if we go this route the presumed casual player (Steam) will certainly not invest any significant $ in the game (Why would they? We want all mechs to have the same game play value right so why buy variety?).

Having same-ish game play value doesn't mean homogeneity. Certain mechs will be faster or more agile or tankier or more heavily armed. Every chassis has unique hardpoint placement and feels different than other mechs. What we are trying to avoid is having mechs that are 5x or 10x better than the other options in a similar weight class. There would be no reason to a Thunderbolt or Dragon without quirks against a Timberwolf.

PGI has decided that some of the weapon quirks are overtuned and are adding unneeded complexity to the game. If they removed weapon quirks and added agility, speed, or armor/structure quirks instead they COULD still make Dragons and Thunderbolts viable options.

[Metus regem]

Void Angel, on 11 November 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Can you explain to me the point of an AC/10 in Classic Battletech?

Sure, it does twice the damage if an AC/5 for 50% more weight, and only 3 hexs less range, with no minimum range. A fantastic all-round weapon, if you ask me, but MWO doesn't do it any justice, as the AC/5 is better here, due to range advantage.

[Sjorpha]

Type A: "I'm going make another thread with a generalizing poorly veiled insult and no real content, that'll teach them!"

Type B: Anyone else.

[Novakaine]

[SpiderMom]

Madcap72, on 11 November 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

The other common breakdown it seems are people that think only THEY are true believers in MW/ BT and NO ONE ELSE can possibly know as much as they do, or like the game as much as they do and anyone that disagrees with them is WRONG, and clearly not on their level.

This is also true, but I am guessing you only mention it because youve said lots of other stupid things that people have called you out on.

[Madcap72]

SpiderMom, on 11 November 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

This is also true, but I am guessing you only mention it because youve said lots of other stupid things that people have called you out on.

Called me out on, that I've shown evidence backing my opinion.

[Burktross]

Render, on 11 November 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Madcap72 is a classic type B.
He plays many games of which this is just another.
He oversimplifies because he does not care and he can not imagine the way I think because he has not played the other games.

QUOTE A MAN IN THE EYES WHEN YOU INSULT HIS DIGNITY!

[Madcap72]

Burktross, on 11 November 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

QUOTE A MAN IN THE EYES WHEN YOU INSULT HIS DIGNITY!

Lets be honest, it's more like moral ambiguity than it is dignity.

[Burktross]

Madcap72, on 11 November 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Lets be honest, it's more like moral ambiguity than it is dignity.

Pot-ae-to, pot-ah-to

[Light-Speed]

I am not sure if I should find the existence of the stereotypes or the embarrassingly bad, and obviously biased, stereotyping more funny.

While I appreciate that you are trying to argue for a game that requires more thought, I find this a very poor argument that overly generalized, something that painfully stood out to me because I love MWO but have never heard of Battletech before this game.




I will now pretend that by this game having 2 types of players you meant that there are these two groups within the playerbase which doesn't include all the players together.

[MauttyKoray]

Render, on 11 November 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

This game has 2 types of players.
Type A : Founders and Fans of BattleTech / MechWarrior.
Type B : Everyone else.

A : Let’s keep this a BattleTech / MechWarrior game with all the trimmings and avoid the FPS trap.
B : this is an FPS, I don’t care about lore, just give me action in a big robot.

A : I want more immersion and a slower TTK.
B : The TTK is to slow, I want more explosions and les thought.

. . . we really have a problem here.
We are a house divided. It is hard for a type B person to imagine what the heck type A people are thinking because they never played a MW game before and it is hard for a type A person to know what a type B person is thinking because they wanted a MW game from day one.

Sorry, I’m not sure where to go from here as I’m at work but the dev’s have a tight rope to walk and if they let it get to loose someone may end up hanging from it.

btw, I have played every PC MW game since MW1

No its

A) Those who want to enjoy the game and improve upon it.
Those that play currently and enjoy abusing the META because it makes them feel superior to 'everyone else' and its 'competitive'
C) The people who want a twitch shooter and/or complain about every change that isn't to their liking no matter whether its better or worse for game balance.

[Chados]

DAYLEET said:

"[What gets him] is how everything's so fast."

You said it, brother. A thirty-ton walking death machine just shouldn't be able to twirl like a ballerina and stop on a dime. That's a lot of mass! MWO often feels like it is totally without inertia but for the heaviest battlemechs. A T-62 tank is 37 tons...a little heavier than a Raven. I have been driving one of these in Armored Warfare. Turning one of those 360 degrees takes time. And hit the brakes on 37 tons of Russian steel traveling at 50 kph...and see how long it takes you to stop. After MWO, I've been running headlong into my teammates, it's taken some getting used to. An Arctic Cheetah running at 100 kph ought to have a turning circle of a couple hundred meters, enough for a hapless heavy to keep up torso twisting at least til it hits the stops.

You ever watch an M1 tank turn a turret? I have. That's fairly fast but it doesn't happen at warp speed like I've seen 75-ton Clan mechs turn torsos. That's a crapton of heavy metal turning. It takes some power to get that started and some more to get it stopped. And all that twisted steel and sex appeal ought to be able to take a few hits. Some of them do, a TBR or TDR can flat out take a beating. But all of them ought to be able to do that. A Catapult is a total glass cannon. So's just about any IS mech packing an XL engine. In the books it's not one shot instagibbed, it's ponderous, it's maneuvering, and it's in your face brawling.

The times I've seen brawls like that here have been moments that make strong men take off their hats and hold them over their hearts and cause choirs of angels to start singing. It's happened, I was a participant in one on top of the old Caustic caldera before the new map came in, on a Conquest mission, that was one for the books. I felt like I was in the books for a moment.

Now? It's all high speed, focus-swarm instagibbing except at the lowest levels in the PUG queue. Phelan Kell would be Tier 5 if he was in MWO and MS/NS/228/SJR wouldn't let him on their teams. Franklin Osis couldn't make the Trials to get into Clan Wolf, or whatever clan he was the Khan of back when. They'd all be too slow. And friends, let's be plain. That is what is slowly destroying this platform. The more this becomes a twitchfest, the more likely it is that players looking for a "thinking person's shooter" will think about going elsewhere for their fix. The ones who are going to stick it out and pump money into it aren't the twitchers. They will get tired of it and move on to the Next Big Thing. But the hardcore Mechwarriors? They're only here because this is the only game in town where you can shoot PPCs. They're the ones buying the Unseen packs. The 80-dollar Clan packs. And I'd bet that a large chunk of them aren't liking how fast the game has got. I didn't realize it til I played AW for a couple days and I was marveling about how slow that game is.

Speed kills. I'm just saying. DAYLEET hit it right on the noggin with that one. Good show, sir. Well played.

Edited by Chados, 11 November 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Ano]

Lugh, on 11 November 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yeah sure that's why the 3 faction system in Dark age of camelot with each faction having very distinct and very OP methods of playing failed so utterly right? Nope. That system THRIVED on imbalance and using Zerg vs Small elite forces to fault.

You COULD do the same thing in MWO. HOWEVER, since PGI is so farking bad at Math, they can't figure out how to take a 24 mech maximum and keep solo que mixed. If every clan mech is 1.6x better than every IS mech ..do the math. Let the team size be variable. Set a marker in the Queue for Clan / IS metrics. essentially it works out to if one side is ALL clan you get 8 v 12 to be = in firepower

I think it's normally MischiefSC who makes the compelling argument against this, but in his absence, I'll give it a go.

When you control one, and only one mech, who other than diehard lorehounds is going to play the "crap side"?

"Mount up in the pinnacle of war technology, a clan battlemech, and aim to kill two IS players per match"
or
"Sit on the back of this donkey, armed with a spud gun, and hope that they shoot the rest of your team first"

The solo queue would become the clan queue, because the ONLY way for IS forces to win would be for them to play as a co-ordinated team. Competitive teams would completely drop any IS mechs that they currently use in open matches (assuming there are some).

I didn't ever play DAOC. I don't think there are that many successful games based on asymmetric power/numbers where individuals control an individual unit, although it's entirely possible I just missed them.

Lugh, on 11 November 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

They COULD also FAST FORWARD and Bam tech is equal as everyone has Clan based tech on all their mechs.

Well sure, they could absolutely do that. But in practical, in-game terms, what difference is there between that and just adjusting the balance/relative power of the mechs and weapons we have now? Wouldn't that simply mean is that big chunks of the existing IS equipment (mechs, weapons) would be almost entirely irrelevant?

[Khobai]

Quote

You COULD do the same thing in MWO. HOWEVER, since PGI is so farking bad at Math, they can't figure out how to take a 24 mech maximum and keep solo que mixed. If every clan mech is 1.6x better than every IS mech ..do the math. Let the team size be variable. Set a marker in the Queue for Clan / IS metrics. essentially it works out to if one side is ALL clan you get 8 v 12 to be = in firepower

PGI already said thats not happening, so stop dwelling on it. What we have is 12v12. And to balance IS vs Clans 1:1 they need to both be equal.

Note that equal doesnt mean the same. Two things can be equal but different. Clan tech can be different from IS tech but still be equal in power level. That asymmetrical balance is what PGI needs to achieve.

Which means CXL cant be better than ISXL. Clan weapons cant be better than IS weapons. Clan FF/ES cant be better than IS FF/ES. Because as long as those things are better, equality hasnt been achieved.

Trying to balance IS vs Clan with "infotech" is laughable at best. You cannot balance out the inequalities of IS vs Clan with trivial quirks that buff sensor range and detailed information gathering time. PGI seriously needs to reconsider that method of balancing because its not going to work.

Quote

They COULD also FAST FORWARD and Bam tech is equal as everyone has Clan based tech on all their mechs.

In Battletech, IS tech is never really equal to Clan tech (even in the 3060s). And IS mechs are never able to equip Clan tech on their mechs. Even the IS omnimechs use IS weaponry, not Clan weaponry. Not sure where you got that from but its not part of any official Battletech canon. IS tech and Clan tech are completely alien from eachother and are never used interchangeably.

As far as MWO goes, like I mentioned above, IS and Clan tech both have to be equal as long as it puts the same number of Clan mechs and IS mechs on each team. You cant have 1:1 balance without equality.

Edited by Khobai, 11 November 2015 - 08:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 11 November 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

And IS mechs are never able to equip Clan tech on their mechs. Even the IS omnimechs use IS weaponry, not Clan weaponry. Not sure where you got that from but its not part of any official Battletech canon. IS tech and Clan tech are completely alien from eachother and are never used interchangeably.

Actually, Omnimechs can use pod-mountable equipment from either faction so long as that equipment is already modded to be compatible with Omnipods. I think it was in the refit rules in Strategic Operations.

There are also some stock mechs that have tech from both factions. The best example is probably the Wulfen Clan Omnimech, which uses IS Stealth Armor and IS XL Gyro with every other item on it being Clan tech.

Edited by FupDup, 11 November 2015 - 08:49 PM.

[Coolant]

OP mixed BT and MW together. Well, there is a 3rd group. Those of us that don't care about the BT, but we do care about the MW due to a previous game we played in the series. For me that was MW4:Mercs and for those of us that play MWO because of that game, we want to see Respawn, other game modes like Team Battle won on damage done not kills, and full-on 3rd Person, not the gimped version we have now.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually, Omnimechs can use pod-mountable equipment from either faction so long as that equipment is already modded to be compatible with Omnipods.

But it doesnt happen on stock mechs as far as I know.

If clan tech is ever used on an IS omnimech its part of some rare extremely expensive custom refit only available to ranking nobility.

Quote

There are also some stock mechs that have tech from both factions. The best example is probably the Wulfen Clan Omnimech, which uses IS Stealth Armor and IS XL Gyro with every other item on it being Clan tech.

clans have their own version of stealth armor according to sarna. Its not IS-exclusive tech.

the XL gyro is 3067, so it doesnt count anyway, because this game will never reach that point in the timeline.

as far as im concerned the timeline ends at 3062. Anything past that is stupid.

Edited by Khobai, 11 November 2015 - 09:05 PM.