30 replies to this topic

[Chryckan]

I've only been playing a couple of weeks so I admit I haven't a 100% understanding on how competitive play and meta mechs really work or are chosen.
However, I noticed that the Wolfhound isn't ranked very high and I'm wondering why?

Because if I face a Wolfhound in game in medium or lighter mech I know I'll probably get badly hurt or killed. And not because the wolfhound pilot can out pilot me but because odds are it will out tank anything I throw at it while hitting me back twice what I'm dishing out.

I mean if I face a cheetah in a medium I know it can hurt me but it has to out manoeuvre me to do so. But when it comes to Wolfhounds I just hope I have help so I don't die.

Yet meta-wise the Wolfhound is seen as low ranking. It's just wierd.

[The Bill]

Pretty much anything that the Wolfie does, something else does better, usually with JJs as a bonus.

The high engine cap on one of them isn't helpful enough because tonnage is to precious on a 35-tonner to spend it on engines heavier than an XL-300. Above 300, they get a lot heavier for that extra engine rating too.

Without significant quirks, or a roleplay fun reason, there's not much reason to pick them over the ACH, FS9, RVN, or even (yeah, I'm going there) the JR7 or PNT.

The Urbie's probably better too, for the twisty-ness, tiny profile, and its RVN-style peek-and-poke arm mounts.

[Spleenslitta]

I've learned not to look at a mech and say: It's dead on arrival.
I said that about the KFX and ironicly it became my favorite and best performing mech. It even outperforms my FS.
Granted i do not use meta build but instead i use crazy weapon mixes.

But personally i would not pick the Wolfhound because of that lack of JJ's. But i've seen how powerfull a big arm yaw limit can be with the Panther.
You can respond to situations really fast with those arm mounted weapons on the Wolfhound.

So i think it's definitivly a contender. Ignore what the meta build sites say. Build a mech after your own tastes.
Get used to having more than 2 weapon groups. I packed a single cERML on the 3rd mousebutton on my KFX regardless of my other weapons for a long time.
Now i react just as fast with that 3rd weapon group as the other 2 groups. It feels natural to know i got a middle ranged weapon on that button now.

It's become a habit.

[jss78]

The WLF is kinda a poor man's ACH. It's basically similar, but lacks JJ's, ECM, and clan tech in general.

It's still a damn good mech, in the big picture, and I like playing mine. But for the meta-minded "the best" is all that matters.

[process]

One thing it's got going for it is the concentration of energy hardpoints in the torso, for slightly better convergence, and allowing it to use its arms as dedicated shields.

[Kjudoon]

It's not a broken mech like the Firecheater or Archic Cheater? That's where my money lies.

Jenners used to be seen all the time because of 6 energy hardpoints. Spiders are broken, but they're so lightweight that they can't boat enough weapons for most players. Both those mechs have gone almost completely obsolete thanks to power creep and being outperformed by broken mechs with more hardpoints.

Currently you see a little variety in a mech if it's overquirked or has ECM like the Ravens. But how often do you see an ECM Commando anymore? Almost never. Even with beneficial hitboxes and size, it's too light, especially without ecm. Lolcusts? unless someone's grinding them up or has a Pirates bane, generally you won't see them either save at low Tiers or as a joke.

The esport-competition meta is all about using all the exploits for victory. That means focusing on broken hitboxes, overquirking, ecm and hardpoint heavy cheese. Anything that can deliver the highest DPM with the best armor, speed and/or mobility to the fight.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 October 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[Flak Kannon]

The wolf, when built with an STD engine is VERY hardy.

The Arctic Cheetah is very hardy, has ecm, and jump jets.

I give the edge to the Cheetah. I really like my Wolfhounds, they are truly tough. About as dangerous as a Firestarter.

The Arctic Cheetah is still better.

[Wildstreak]

No ECM or JJs alone kills it no matter how fast it goes. I do better in my Cheetahs and Panthers (no Firestarters or Jenners) than in a Wolfhound. I actually have more winning games and kills in Crabs than Wolfhounds though the Wolfhounds seem to do better damage totals.
The UrbanMech can actually do better, has a small JJ boost and even 360 degree torso twist without unlocks.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Kjudoon, on 28 October 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

Currently you see a little variety in a mech if it's overquirked or has ECM like the Ravens. But how often do you see an ECM Commando anymore? Almost never. Even with beneficial hitboxes and size, it's too light, especially without ecm. Lolcusts? unless someone's grinding them up or has a Pirates bane, generally you won't see them either save at low Tiers or as a joke.

You don't see ECM Commandos because the COM-2D is demonstrably inferior to the RVN-3L in every way- it's even just a hair slower because PGI thought it was funny to give it a 210 engine cap instead of 240 like the other Commandos... which forces it to run a second external DHS as well, causing you to lose valuable crits that you'd need for a viable missile loadout. The Pirates' Bane at least has a few more energy hardpoints and an engine cap high enough to justify taking it instead of a different ECM light... the COM-2D is in more or less the same boat as the Mist Lynx.

There's nothing whatsoever wrong with the WLF. It can run enough firepower to junk a FS9 or ACH and has the hitboxes to back up its hardpoints. So it doesn't have jets... whoopee, so it can't squirrel as well because it can't do the broken animation two-step straight through the middle of the red team. That makes me happy. I sold all my FS9s because they were borked; it would have been depressing to have a pile of Wolfhounds sitting on the shelf because I felt dirty driving them. Then again, I'm Joe Average Tier 3 Pugface, so whatever.

[Void Angel]

The disgusting prevalence of Streakcrows, even in PuG matches, has put me off using my Pirate's Bane - well, that and the gauss-vomit meta that encourages everyone and his uncle to camp and hide. The Locust needs to be engaging with heavier teammates to be effective, and you don't get that any more.

[jss78]

Flak Kannon, on 28 October 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

The wolf, when built with an STD engine is VERY hardy.

The Arctic Cheetah is very hardy, has ecm, and jump jets.

I give the edge to the Cheetah. I really like my Wolfhounds, they are truly tough. About as dangerous as a Firestarter.

The Arctic Cheetah is still better.

I agree, the WLF's are incredibly tough with STD engines. I think the ideal build for the WLF might be a largish STD and 5-6 ML's, although I took a "light medium" approach with the stock STD-210 and ERLL + 4xML. Pulls its weight with tremendous ease, at mid-tier games.

I'm on the fence about whether I prefer it to the PNT. I enjoy the agility of PNT's due to JJ's and arm-mounted weapons, but WLF's have a wonderful ability to keep doing damage over the long haul, due to the torso-centric weaponry. It's like a strurdy workhorse, kinda like the Crab's little cousin, in this respect.

[InspectorG]

Void Angel, on 28 October 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

The disgusting prevalence of Streakcrows, even in PuG matches, has put me off using my Pirate's Bane - well, that and the gauss-vomit meta that encourages everyone and his uncle to camp and hide.

Camping and hiding is a sign of ignorance. As you get better and face better opponents, the game is 'push or be pushed'.
Doesnt take Gaussvomit to get players to camp, it just takes lack of understanding.

As far as the Wolfhound, its new shiny now but give it a month and see if people still run it.
Its not bad, but not great. Which in Meta-land if its not great, its not worth using unless very specific reasons.

[Myke Pantera]

Let's compare it to 2 direct IS competitors

Compared to JR7-F (Best light in game pre Firestarter/Clans)

• No jump jets
  
• 3 critical slots less
  
• 3 variants with smaller engine cap (the additional DHS slot in the 300 means the world)
  
• 2 variants with less energy hardpoints (6 is a sweet spot for Medium Lasers)
  
• Lower hardpoints
  
• Better hitboxes
  
• Better torso pitch
  
• 2 Variants (1 & 2) with better Quirks, but overall not all that good quirks considering it lacks jump jets

Compared to Firestarters

• No jump jets
  
• One critical slot less
  
• 1 Variant with higher engine cap (300 is sweat spot, 315 is too high, although interesting)
  
• Better torso pitch!
  
• Way worse hardpoints
  
• Way worse quirks

So against it's direct competitors, especially the Firestarter, it has no real advantages. The better torso pitch is good but also required, since most hardpoints are torso mounted, which is again a drawback. The 315 engine rating of the WLF-1 is interesting but all above 300 is for the lulz and not because it makes any sense (Of course i still run it with 315). I wouldn't call it weaker than the Panther, but the Panther is a very unique mech with decent quirks that plays like a light for medium pilots (That's why i love it so much ^^). It's still not an awful mech, it's just not top notch.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 30 October 2015 - 06:07 AM.

[Void Angel]

InspectorG, on 29 October 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Camping and hiding is a sign of ignorance. As you get better and face better opponents, the game is 'push or be pushed'.
Doesnt take Gaussvomit to get players to camp, it just takes lack of understanding.

I wholeheartedly agree - read through the guides in my signature. Sadly, this ignorance is quite prevalent - particularly during events like the one currently ongoing.

[Night Thastus]

The meta tier isn't some scientifically proven fact. It's the opinion of one man who happens to feel a certain way about the game. Some people would argue it deserves a higher rating, some would argue lower.

Take it with a grain of salt.

[Void Angel]

Myke Pantera, on 30 October 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

• 3 variants with smaller engine cap (the additional DHS slot in the 300 means the world)

You normally that space-limited on your builds? Any heat sinks you actually install in the 'mech don't benefit from the "True Double" effect, even if they're in the engine.

[Myke Pantera]

Void Angel, on 30 October 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

You normally that space-limited on your builds? Any heat sinks you actually install in the 'mech don't benefit from the "True Double" effect, even if they're in the engine.

Yes it's about the critical slots. 3 slots more means a lot when determining if you can install Ferro Fibrous armor or not! That's why many builds end up using 300, 325, 350 engines...

[Void Angel]

Oh, with larger 'mechs, sure. You must be using smaller lasers on your Jenners, though.

[Nightshade24]

I can tell you why the Wolfhound isn't considered meta. But many people here can tell you a bit why: So instead I will tell you what the meta is.

it is a social competetive construct built up on 1(or more) peoples opinions on the mech and gameplay, even if the game hasn't changed at all in a certain amount of time that change it in any way the meta can shift and change. It's slightly a rock paper scissors so to say. If people spam a lot of rock to kill other rocks and some scissors, soon people will start using paper to defeat the rock and that's a very simplified way how meta changes. Even amongst some of the high end meta units all say different things based on meta.

Rather 2 ER PPC 2 Gauss direwolf is the best or is the 2 large pulse laser, 4 medium laser, 2 gauss rifle direwolf is the best.
Than you get that 1 unit saying the duel Gauss PPC warhawk is better as it is faster and such and than you got the other unit saying all clan assaults are bad.

If you listen to what seems like the majority of meta players on X info and than talk about it elsewhere than those meta people there would beg to differ and say that is false/ not meta.

With that in mind it is easy to see how it is often confusing and sometimes there are very good mechs that are not considered meta.

Most meta mechs at the current moment as of 31/10/2015 often has lasers and/or gauss rifle excluding the few mechs with overquirked medium pulse lasers or AC 5. higher the hardpoints the better and often the heaviest mech of the weightclass is most preferable. Also ECM hardpoint is liked as well as no hardwired MASC, Another point is a good hitbox: what is considered good? Another debate. I prefer large CT, Small ST's, but others prefer the opposite. Also jumpjets in small mounts is good to. apparently.

Now, if you look at this the Shadowcat must be one of the best mechs in game, it fits all this criteria.... however it is considered one of the worst clan mediums. Stormcrow? relatively low hardpoints, no ECM or jumpjets... and apparently one of hte best medium mechs... to a degree you can picture the stormcrow as the wolfhound of it's weight class. and for some reason the wolfhound isn't liked...this is a topic on peoples opinions more than statistics I have to say.

[Surn]

It was just a nice looking design thrown into a mechpack. Get over it. It is not competitive, like most mechs.