224 replies to this topic

[Kira Onime]

ValkyrieCRNA, on 16 November 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Because that 4/6/8 man is usually made up on T1's and T2's running mastered meta mechs, while the pug side is full of T4's and T3's running trial mechs or the craptastic builds that they run in the solo queue.

Well if you don't bring the proper tools to face someone, don't complain if that someone did bring the tools.

Only kind of balancing that should be made in CW is from the players themselves and the quickest thing I'd add for CW before Phase 3 would be a popup that warns you if you are solo "you are entering a group queue focused territory, enter ast your own risk --- accept/decline".

[Aresye]

ValkyrieCRNA, on 16 November 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Part of the problem here is that the "12 man or PUG" binary choice is fallacious. 12 mans RARELY account for the imbalanced seal-clubbing matches. Most of the time it's 8-mans or 6-mans, etc. The skill gap is SO massive that a 6 or 8 man tips the scale just as badly as a 12-man. Hell, in most of the matches I've been in this weekend, a FOUR-man is enough to guarantee a curbstomp. Because that 4/6/8 man is usually made up on T1's and T2's running mastered meta mechs, while the pug side is full of T4's and T3's running trial mechs or the craptastic builds that they run in the solo queue.

There needs to be some kind of balancing. Problem is, there aren't enough people to make it work, and the 200 people that normally play CW try their absolute hardest to keep the "bads" from suggesting any changes to their super-1337 playground of skillz.

Part of the problem is that people like you are continuously arguing about a game mode that is...

MOTHER
&^$*&#^
OPTIONAL

Let's play pretend though. PGI magically gets enough players that they can incorporate a matchmaking system in CW, now what?

How is this now a simulated invasion when every game is made to be balanced? Faction coordination, player numbers, and the skill of each individual unit in that faction are completely pointless. It's just a separate game mode with respawn now.

Why even play it? You can't influence the taking of planets because each game for that planet is guaranteed to be balanced, and to have a good matchmaker for CW would imply that each contested planet should and WILL be sitting at exactly 50%, with planet flipping being more the result of RNG than anything else.

Why are you even playing CW in the first place? Are you trying to take planets? If so you need to beat the enemy forces on that planet, which may include some very tough units. Are you dedicated enough that you'll run the meta and attempt to lead your team and/or create a unit/Clan for the sole purpose of taking planets and (in the future) organize the logistics, CBill coffers, and work with other unit leaders to coordinate attacks on single targets, or split up groups into smaller 4-5 man groups in order to help win a larger number of organized games?

I'm rambling, but seriously, why are you playing CW? Can you not see the giant logical fallacy that is creating a matchmaking system for a game mode that by its very nature, is primarily dependent on asymmetrical influence to function? Do you even understand what I'm getting at?

[Black Ivan]

Ted Wayz, on 16 November 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

CW is bad and people are arguing about PUGs being the queue? Really?

And show me where PGI stated they didn't want PUGs in CW. The statement belongs to misguided players, not PGI.

CW could be great. CW could work for all group sizes and actually introduce role warfare. But instead we have this horrible unimaginative mess and people argue about who should play it? No one should play it in its current state.

One of the best responses to this topic I have ever read. 100 % agree.

[TWIAFU]

Kira Onime, on 16 November 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

Well if you don't bring the proper tools to face someone, don't complain if that someone did bring the tools.

Only kind of balancing that should be made in CW is from the players themselves and the quickest thing I'd add for CW before Phase 3 would be a popup that warns you if you are solo "you are entering a group queue focused territory, enter ast your own risk --- accept/decline".

I have been pushing for just that for some time now. Has been falling on deaf ears, glad to see another mentioning it.

[Ghogiel]

ValkyrieCRNA, on 16 November 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

There needs to be some kind of balancing. Problem is, there aren't enough people to make it work, and the 200 people that normally play CW try their absolute hardest to keep the "bads" from suggesting any changes to their super-1337 playground of skillz.

Most of the people who play CW are solo. Most of those are bad at mechs. Many are even in trials. CW has never ever been considered a competetive environment by any comp team or player since forever, it has largely been seen as a farm fest precisely because it is absolutely chock full of scrubs, with no MM to speak of. The odds of hitting even a single good player on the other side is not high, let alone hitting a large premade.

[Kuritaclan]

TWIAFU, on 16 November 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

People will play CW when they are bribed to. If there were meaningful rewards to playing CW all the time, we would not have the problem of people going to CW for low hanging fruit when they are not ready, not prepared, and just want their toys so they can go home.

Bribing? The only meaningful rewards in this game are MCs. And those are the bread and butter for PGI to maintain the game. How about 1MC for every 100 match points as long as the match point is made with a non trial mech that has at least first tier of skills done. - 30 Minutes will give you somewhat between 1 to 5 MC yeah. Is this bribe enough?

Anyway i do not think that it would help. Since those pugs who are bad will continue to blame the 12 man groups. And those who pug anyway standing their ground in cw, are not impressed by 12 man groups as long as on the own side or "11 pugs" who know how to drive a mech and play cw. The rage about cw coming from "under skilled players", who get decimated in such events will stay on the level. As it was - as it is - as it will be. They are not good enough to stand their ground - Period. So they blame the gamemode or the conditions or insert whatever it will be.

[TWIAFU]

Kuritaclan, on 17 November 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

Bribing? The only meaningful rewards in this game are MCs. And those are the bread and butter for PGI to maintain the game. How about 1MC for every 100 match points as long as the match point is made with a non trial mech that has at least first tier of skills done. - 30 Minutes will give you somewhat between 1 to 5 MC yeah. Is this bribe enough?

Anyway i do not think that it would help. Since those pugs who are bad will continue to blame the 12 man groups. And those who pug anyway standing their ground in cw, are not impressed by 12 man groups as long as on the own side or "11 pugs" who know how to drive a mech and play cw. The rage about cw coming from "under skilled players", who get decimated in such events will stay on the level. As it was - as it is - as it will be. They are not good enough to stand their ground - Period. So they blame the gamemode or the conditions or insert whatever it will be.

Yes, bribe.

Much of these people that went into CW went ONLY for the rewards with no intention to stay. They wanted the free shiney and left the game mode, after complaining that they were stomped playing solo. Same thing happens when they farm for mechbays in CW.

They are not going back. Not until they are bribed again or there are meaningful rewards for CW participation.

[Kin3ticX]

TWIAFU, on 17 November 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Yes, bribe.

Much of these people that went into CW went ONLY for the rewards with no intention to stay. They wanted the free shiney and left the game mode, after complaining that they were stomped playing solo. Same thing happens when they farm for mechbays in CW.

They are not going back. Not until they are bribed again or there are meaningful rewards for CW participation.

Russ did tweet that the rewards were meant to spread the word about the 200k faction rewards. Instead of needing 20 wins (50k) to get 1 mil you only need 5 now.

W/ prem time 300k means 3 games gets 900k. It should improve the earnings for below average players.

[Clownwarlord]

The increased Cbill earning is nice in CW because it does help balance it for time spent in CW to be similar earnings with that if you spent same time in solo or group cue. But the new pass over the pay outs of some other items will also help from this patch as well.

[Darky101]

I played beta, didnt like it, replayed all other mech games a gazilion times and 2-3 months ago returned, the game is better!

I'm not yet in a unit because I'm still rotating for the mech bays, i already have my dropdeck for both IS and Clan factions, some mastered some basic, some meta, some .... just because
I play as a solo drop and usualy do well, 800 - 1.2 k damage average, sometimes much higher. (well its better then most out there)

I got face stomped and rolled by most of the 12 man units that are out there, but i'm still not discouraged of playing CW....
Why?
Because I'm not surprised!
Why?
Its a team based game and better prepared teams have a better chance. Simple! dont expect anything else. (and Cw is fun)

Does Pgi need to listen to feedback?
Hell Yeah!

Should PGI listen to all feedback?
Hell No! Some are just wack.

Does PGI need to make CW more PUg friendly?
Definitely not! (And this comming from a PUG!)

Pgi needs to give more game modes for Pugs/solo player to keep up the interest.
CW could also use more maps and modes to keep up our interest.

The game mode is pretty good and pugs can do well in it if they have the will to get better and just keep a stiff uper lip when loosing,

CW needs more players for it to be mostly fun for the weekhearted pugs, this event showed clearly that if there is proper incentive there will be more people in CW and pugs/solo dropers will have better matches.
We steam rolled 12 man units with random players, lucky match ups to be honest, but if there are more players there is a better chance for good matchups.
We also had fun PUG vs PUG matches.

So about that incentive.....
CW population is Low..
Why?
I have average skills, but I have the will to learn and get better but I still make more Cbills in Pug matches.
With the low CW population before the event I used to make about 200k-600k in about 45 minutes, that is because wait times were long so it was about 45 minutes for one match.

In pugs wait times are lower and I (average skilled player) can average 120K-160K/match, so in 45 minutes, dropping with the least queked weight class I can get 3-4 matches in 45 minutes, same or more then I make IN CW best case scenario.
Better over all Cbill gain in Pugs, though not as much fun as CW.


Well thats my experience.
Have nice day!

Oh and I fail to realise why in the current state any unit would strugle to capture a planet... this part definetly needs work. (or I need a kick for being blind and not findig the list of rewards for owning a planet)

Edited by Darky101, 17 November 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[Zibmo]

Aresye Kerensky, on 16 November 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

Part of the problem is that people like you are continuously arguing about a game mode that is...

MOTHER
&^$*&#^
OPTIONAL

Let's play pretend though. PGI magically gets enough players that they can incorporate a matchmaking system in CW, now what?

How is this now a simulated invasion when every game is made to be balanced? Faction coordination, player numbers, and the skill of each individual unit in that faction are completely pointless. It's just a separate game mode with respawn now.

Why even play it? You can't influence the taking of planets because each game for that planet is guaranteed to be balanced, and to have a good matchmaker for CW would imply that each contested planet should and WILL be sitting at exactly 50%, with planet flipping being more the result of RNG than anything else.

Why are you even playing CW in the first place? Are you trying to take planets? If so you need to beat the enemy forces on that planet, which may include some very tough units. Are you dedicated enough that you'll run the meta and attempt to lead your team and/or create a unit/Clan for the sole purpose of taking planets and (in the future) organize the logistics, CBill coffers, and work with other unit leaders to coordinate attacks on single targets, or split up groups into smaller 4-5 man groups in order to help win a larger number of organized games?

I'm rambling, but seriously, why are you playing CW? Can you not see the giant logical fallacy that is creating a matchmaking system for a game mode that by its very nature, is primarily dependent on asymmetrical influence to function? Do you even understand what I'm getting at?

And, simultaneously with this (the CW event aside), most of the kvetching on the CW forum is that wait times are too long.

I have taken this advice, prior to your giving it, and haven't queued for CW in quite some time. That "optional" mode is all well and good - provided you and those with your particular bent don't turn it into a ghost town. Because if that happens, the first thing that will happen is the lynch mob will take to the streets blaming PGI and non-CW players - in short, everyone but themselves. -Yourselves-

Be careful what you wish for. Because you will have it in spades if you aren't a bit more welcoming.

Edited by Zibmo, 17 November 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[LORD ORION]

Mystere, on 16 November 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

Scream in terror? I think this guy has other ideas:

Guy makes an alt account and pwnz a bunch of T5 stoobz?

[GRiPSViGiL]

How many people still didn't play CW even though there was an event? Most have been playing long enough that the free crap they give for events don't matter and are not incentives to play their game.

[Novakaine]

Normally I abhorred CW, but this weekend I said why not.
My unit won and my unit lost some, but never once did I see a seal noob clubbing I been hearing.
Most of the games vs the Skittles were within 2 or 3 mechs killed.
We played random pugs, organized Skittles unit and a traitorous Liao unit.
Most were close games as I said.
Much to our credit the games we did lose, most of us had just ran out of steam.
The only problem I saw was the lack of any kind of organization or communication in the pug drops.
And sorry you simply cannot not fix that.

Fear the Suns

Edited by Novakaine, 17 November 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[Triordinant]

GRiPSViGiL, on 17 November 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

How many people still didn't play CW even though there was an event? Most have been playing long enough that the free crap they give for events don't matter and are not incentives to play their game.

If you have to bribe people to play CW that means CW is crap. They should fix it instead so people will play it without having to be bribed.

[Ghogiel]

Triordinant, on 17 November 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

If you have to bribe people to play CW that means CW is crap. They should fix it instead so people will play it without having to be bribed.

Not mutually exclusive. One of the reasons why CW is crap is because it's not rewarding.

[Mister Blastman]

Mystere, on 16 November 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

Scream in terror? I think this guy has other ideas:

Second highest honor? What do you have to do to get the first? Kill an entire battalion or town of insurgents?

[Sandpit]

Quote

[color=#959595]As for out dated evidence then show me something up to date.[/color]

*points to CW*
there
That's the most up to date evidence.
Oh and go back and watch any number of townhalls
read the archives
Peruse the command chair posts on it.

I'm not your librarian and don't have the desire to dig through that just to satisfy your need for "proof". Anyone involved in the community during these times will verify this. Anyhow, point being, if you did not get those memos you wither weren't here or were oblivious to 90% of the threads, twitter remarks, reddit, and the community posted in the years following that launch presentation that was outdated before it was even recorded.

That doesn't even begin to cover the debacle that IGP created with their "wonderful" business philosophies.

Look, bottom line is this. You already have every single thing your'e asking for. You have multiple modes, maps, mechs, etc. to play the game with. You have more modes, resources, etc. dedicated to that type of player than the "hardcore" types. The one and only optional game mode that even remotely caters to those in the "hardcore" crowd is CW.

To most reasonable people, the majority of players jumping up and down on this look like a bunch of entitled and spoiled brats that are throwing (and have been since day 1) tantrums because, heaven forbid, something was developed in the game as an optional component and it didn't cater exclusively to them.

Let's be very frank here. You didn't lose because you're a baby seal clubbed by 12mans.
You didn't lose because of game imbalance
You didn't lose because the map screwed you.
You didn't lose because of (insert latest FotW on the forums here)

You lost because you played in a match against players that were better than your team.
Period. There's not a single solitary player in this community that has never been beaten. Has never been on one or both sides of a roflstomp. Has never had to deal with periods of imbalance (Lurmageddon anyone? Not that "fake" one, but the real one where every missile hit your head). In other words, there's a select handful in the community (on the forums especially) that do nothing but blame losses on any and everything and one they can as long as it doesn't involve admitting they just got beat and outplayed.

Anyhow
TL;DR
You don't lose because of 12mans
CW is and always has been meant to be the hardcore portion of the game
CW doesn't cater to premades, it caters to teamwork and coordination, there's a huge difference.
I'm a PUG. I'm a solo. I'm a 12man player. I've played from every side of those arguments.

I got news for ya, it ain't 12 mans and "imbalances" causing a lot of those losses....

[Jun Watarase]

Davers, on 15 November 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Totally disagree. Everyone enjoys free wins and easy Cbills. Look at MWO history- PGI made a "12 man queue" and it was a ghost town because it was "too hard". Now Russ complains the big units actively avoid fighting each other in CW. See the pattern?

When groups want competition they play the leagues. When they want to hang out, talk some smack with buddies, and roll pugs for easy Cbills they play CW.

Yea but those arent real competitive players, just fakers trying to look good. But why is PGI catering CW to these people? They are obviously not the main player base.

During the event i did end up winning several pug vs 12 man matches....like two or three. But 90% of the time was pointless spawncamping.

From what people are saying in the clanner forum though, it seems that organized teams on both sides are mainly choosing to attack, so they are avoiding each other this way...

It's no surprise that the majority of the playerbase is boycotting CW at the moment especially when you compare the public server numbers and the CW player numbers.

The only question is whether PGI will care enough to do something about it. I think it took like 2 years to get rid of organized teams vs pugs in the public queue?

Edited by Jun Watarase, 17 November 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Triordinant]

Ghogiel, on 17 November 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Not mutually exclusive. One of the reasons why CW is crap is because it's not rewarding.

It would still be totally crap even if they tripled the rewards, just slightly less smelly. Besides, I oppose using rewards as bait to lure in new players who are short on cbills to be seal clubbed.