13 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Alright, seeing as I have been somewhat vocal about ways to balance the game lately, I thought I would put forth what I would look at doing to create a more balanced atmosphere in MWO.

I. Solving the issues with alpha strikes and ghost heat

• 
  
  Make the heat cap a hard 30 for any mech with upgrades to DHS. Essentially, no pilot skills increase it, ever period.
  
• 
  
  Increase all DHS to 2.0 (0.2/sec). With the offset to heat caps moving necessarily downward, heat dissipation should necessarily increase to offset this slightly.
  
• 
  
  All SHS will be 1.0 (0.1/sec). This is a necessary step to incorporate the next major change that will make them relevant.
  
• 
  
  All SHS (including internal engine SHS) increase the heatcap by 1 per SHS. This means that a mech with a STD 250 engine, and 10 external SHS will have a 50 heat cap.

This suggestion allows SHS to have the capability to better keep up the sustained race with DHS mechs. This suggestion also limits alpha strikes by instituting a hard shutdown at 30 heat, eliminating the need for ghost heat completely. This suggestion also brings parity to IS and Clan alpha strikes because more IS weapons can be fired before they generate the same heat as clan weapons. This will likely require some tuning of heat values, and may not be exactly how the system would turn out by numerical values; however, the principal would work to solve those issues

II. Clan and IS balance

• 
  
  Advance the timeline to 3055-3060. I know many of you are against T3/T4 IS tech; however, it makes zero sense to try to balance T2 IS tech against T4 clan tech, when, should they ever advance the timeline at all, T3/T4 IS tech will come, and much of it is as powerful, if not outright better, requiring yet another rebalance. 3049-3052 is, by a wide margin, the period in all of BT timelines that has the absolute widest gap in faction balance ever.
  
• 
  
  T3/T4 IS tech would save the day for weapon balance. A lot of you would say that this would obsolete current IS weapons completely. I ask you this question, has the presence of the IS ERLL obsoleted the IS LL? No...? Why? Because there is a place for a more heat efficient weapon with similar/same damage in many builds. Light mechs instantly come to mind as being mechs that would still use the lower heat lasers to keep sustained DPS higher, and get similar burst DPS up close. Brawler mediums also come to mind, as well as some mechs that boat energy weapons.

Examples:

• 
  
  IS ERML vs. IS ML: IS ERML has a 360m effective range, does 5 damage for 5 heat, and weighs 1 ton. The ML is 270m effective range, does 5 damage for 4 heat and weighs 1 ton.
  
• 
  
  UACs/RACs vs. ACs: As we have clearly witnessed, UACs tend to be burst fire weapons and RACs would likely be as well (DoT), while ACs are single projectile (FLD). The advantage there is leaning slightly for ACs. UACs also have a jam chance, and RACs have even higher DPS than UACs at the expense of even higher jam chances than UACs. In this instance, if you do not want it to jam, or want FLD bring ACs. If you want crazy DPS and accept the possibility that your guns may shut down at an inopportune time, then you accept the trade off and take RACs/UACs.
  
• 
  
  Add the rest of the IS SSRM launchers, and the LBX cannons: This is predominantly a QoL thing, streaks at the moment are niche weapons, and LBX well, they have their own issues. This would, however, bring parity to those weapon systems as it stands.
  
• 
  
  Add the LFE to the game for the IS: This gives the IS an option to allow a mech to save weight and have cXL functionality at the same time. The IS battlemechs have the opportunity to select having ES/FF or none, and thus can do many things in terms of customization options with these engines. Meanwhile, the Clans are stuck with their stock config while mechs like the Suckoner, the Gargamel, the Nopeva, the Rektecutioner, the Hellbie, and many others are simply outclassed by not being able to save the weight.IIC mechs will only exacerbate this further by showing what clan mechs with customization can do.

To conclude:

Many of you think that new weapon systems would make the game less balanced; however, by default, these new weapons would bring them closer to parity than current IS weapons because they were designed to balance the IS against the clans to begin with. This means that even if PGI just plugs in TT numbers, the weapons will be more competitive because they are by default.

Others among you presume this would obsolete some weapons. I cannot say with 100% certainty that this will not be the case across allweapons; however, I do assert strongly that the UAC5 has not replaced the AC5, the LBX10 has not replaced the AC10, and the IS ERLL has not replaced the LL. I expect that there would be myriad more build options available with more weapons. While I do not assert that all builds will be equal, this is certainly already the case, and would not limit things that are not already somewhat inhibited by what the meta game dictates (i.e. if your dream is a Spider with 2 small lasers and 12 JJs being viable, I am afraid nothing will ever make that so...).

TL;DR: Fix the heatscale and add equivalent IS weapons, balance issues mostly solve themselves.



This is reposted here from reddit: https://www.reddit.c...ath_to_balance/



Things should be "different but equal" as promised...but the tech needs to be lined up to be competitive without making everything clusterfukt.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 November 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[Mcgral18]

New tech is a horrid idea when balance is how it is.
That's simple.
isML should be 3 heat. isERML is absolutely horrid compared to the cERML. No balance there.

Fix the old stuff before opening yet another can of worms.


Heatsink change is simple, but you realize we already get 17 heatsinks at 0.2 H/s dissipation due to efficiencies. Buffed TrueDubs make up for Gimped PoorDubs until that point.

Anyhow, here's that particular change:

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="HeatSink_MkI" id="3000">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\HeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.0" engineCooling="0.1" cooling="0.1"/>

SHS remain stock (on Live)

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI" id="3001">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="3"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\DoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-0.0" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.2"/>

DHS need the Cooling changed to match TrueDubs, and heat base removed. Should probably take the whole variable out, as it adds needless calculations.


That would cause Gauss to remain at the top, hurt brawling (as that causes high heat, your pitiful dissipation buff likely wouldn't be enough), but would bring alphas down to whatever the new system would allow. 2LPLs plus something? Gauss, naturally. +2ERMLs might be too hot (dissipation depending).


New Tech doesn't fix the old stuff, which is what's needed.

[Simbacca]

Another way to help balance the game is to completely eliminate the weapon modules.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I just got to ask, why should single heatsinks even be good compared to double heatsinks anyway?

I mean a double heatsink should be twice as good, period, right?

[FupDup]

Dakota1000, on 17 November 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

I just got to ask, why should single heatsinks even be good compared to double heatsinks anyway?

Because having "Legacy Feature" equipment in the game that is practically unusable doesn't add any value to the game?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

FupDup, on 17 November 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Because having "Legacy Feature" equipment in the game that is practically unusable doesn't add any value to the game?

And thus why I've always wondered why they are there other than to make me spend another 1.5 million for every IS mech I get.

[FupDup]

Dakota1000, on 17 November 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

And thus why I've always wondered why they are there other than to make me spend another 1.5 million for every IS mech I get.

That really is about all they do right now. They're a money sink and noob trap wrapped up into a single package of fail.

[Galenit]

Dakota1000, on 17 November 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

I just got to ask, why should single heatsinks even be good compared to double heatsinks anyway?

I mean a double heatsink should be twice as good, period, right?

Twice as good at dissipating,
now give shs double the heat containing (or reduce dhs containing to half),
and you will have two viable items and a choise.

Edited by Galenit, 17 November 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Triordinant]

Best solution for Clan/IS balance is to make all matches Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS until they can find a more permanent solution (assuming they ever do).

[Lightfoot]

Just make the mechs even tougher for the 2xRecycle and restore everything to Battle Tech canon. Un-nerf Gauss charge-up and LRMs. Laser-vomit brawl is boring balancing, not what Battle Tech is about.

Also there are mechs out there that go over the 30 heat mark. Supernova, Novacat, Warhawk, AWS-9M, on and on.

Edited by Lightfoot, 17 November 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[Mothykins]

Pretend this is a picture of MWO balanced on a tightrope.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 17 November 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

New tech is a horrid idea when balance is how it is.
That's simple.
isML should be 3 heat. isERML is absolutely horrid compared to the cERML. No balance there.

Fix the old stuff before opening yet another can of worms.


Heatsink change is simple, but you realize we already get 17 heatsinks at 0.2 H/s dissipation due to efficiencies. Buffed TrueDubs make up for Gimped PoorDubs until that point.

Anyhow, here's that particular change:

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="HeatSink_MkI" id="3000">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\HeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.0" engineCooling="0.1" cooling="0.1"/>

SHS remain stock (on Live)

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI" id="3001">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="3"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\DoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-0.0" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.2"/>

DHS need the Cooling changed to match TrueDubs, and heat base removed. Should probably take the whole variable out, as it adds needless calculations.


That would cause Gauss to remain at the top, hurt brawling (as that causes high heat, your pitiful dissipation buff likely wouldn't be enough), but would bring alphas down to whatever the new system would allow. 2LPLs plus something? Gauss, naturally. +2ERMLs might be too hot (dissipation depending).


New Tech doesn't fix the old stuff, which is what's needed.

McGral...we have been through this...

New tech is more balanced by default because the values are more balanced by default.

You cannot deny T3/T4 IS tech is more competitive with T3/T4 Clan tech than what T2 IS tech is.

You are on a crusade about getting IS XL engines and CXL engines to be identical. While I applaud your attempts to make that priority number one...

Frankly...

I hope that never happens. The LFE should be what your solution is...

As for the bit about SHS vs DHS...I appreciate the breakdown.

The concept is sound. I realize what you state is true...however...there are some mechs that can carry over 20 heat sinks. As I stated elsewhere, the concept may need minor adjustments...suppose you make DHS 0.25 instead of 0.2...minor adjustments could be made...I am not immovable on the minor details.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 November 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Sandpit]

Heat Scale
Don't change current heat scale. Don't change current heat mechanics (except ghost heat, it would become redundant with the change below)
When a mech accumulates 15% of their heat max (shutdown) they lose 10% of their top speed
25% they lose an additional 10% of top speed AND their screen gets a bit blurry at edges causing a slight tunnel vision
50% they lose an additional 5% speed and screen gets a bit blurrier with a tinge of black at the edges
70% 5% speed and more blur
90% 5% speed and tunnel vision
100% shutdown and possible ammo cookoff
As the mech cools down and the heat dissipates the effects subside until back to normal. Obviously those numbers are just for example purposes to give an idea of how the heat scale could work.

That? That's a VERY simple way to "fix" the heat issues in this game. It gives heat a purpose other than too hot shutdown for a second. Heat didn't just affect mechs, it also affected the pilots inside the mechs which is where the to -hit and movement modifiers came from.

You make that one simple change and you can get rid of arbitrary mechanics like ghost heat (which was only implemented because PGI couldn't figure out a better way to handle heat and large scale alpha strikes) and make swithces in metas and builds and dropdecks.

Until heat means something significant past shut down for a couple of seconds at max heat, you'll never get a good balance on a game based on Btech. The heat scale and penalties were integral in balancing heat for Btech.

This could also be easily added to something like CW as a "hardcore sim" feature. Want to play more of a sim? Jump in CW or custom match. Want more of an arcade and arena shooter? Play in pub matches.

This is how you make changes that diversify instead of limiting a player's ability to enjoy the game in the way they find the most fun.

[Lucian Nostra]

Gyrok does have a point, so we balance out IS vs Clan tech than the game advances and the new IS weapons come out.. so what than?

You spent all that time tweaking CERMLs to be balanced vs a IS ML.. so now the IS gets ERMLs that are better than both? Wouldn't it be faaaar easier to balance it out having all of it around? IS ML as the cool running weapon and IS ERML as the hotter long ranged one?

While I do like the invasion era it is the worst balance wise period of the games history without using some kinda cost metric like BV

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 18 November 2015 - 11:59 AM.