31 replies to this topic

[Prof RJ Gumby]

I think many players will agree that mechs using ballistics really struggle and must sacrifice much to have enough ammo for a normal match, and are usually a bad choice for CW due to ammo shortages.

The PTS4 introduces A LOT of structure/armor buffs. Some mechs (BJs for example) have their overall hitpoints raised by about 1/3! While it may not be noticed in 4x4 mode, in standard 12vs12 and CW this will significantly nerf AC users IMHO, forcing them to further strip armor/lower engine cap just to not run out of ammo mid-fight.

My suggestion is, raise ammo per ton for all ballistic weapons, at least a bit. Current standard is 150 potential damage for one ton (140 for ac20, 200 for ac10). Bumping it by 10/ton (usually to to 160) or more should help ballistic mechs to stay in the game.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 18 November 2015 - 03:09 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

While i would not be against an ammo buff for ballistics (armour/structure got 2x compared to TT, ammo got 1.5x), i dont subscribe to the 'ammo weapons bad choice for CW' mantra. Its not hard to build mechs with ammo to make 1500+ dmg with ACs only, and that is plenty of damage capability for one mech. Unless you are getting 6000+ dmg per CW match...

[L3mming2]

with the posible exeption of AC20's and gauss i would say make them all 200 damage/t
dps ballistics make you waste more ammo due to damage spread and (torso twisting) and higher chance to miss at long range (vs faster/small targets)

[Darian DelFord]

NO Ballistics are already increased from TT. However SRM's have not been. MY poor OXIDE runs out of Ammo almost every match )

NO Ballistics are already increased from TT. However SRM's have not been. MY poor OXIDE runs out of Ammo almost every match )

[L3mming2]

Darian DelFord, on 18 November 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

NO Ballistics are already increased from TT. However SRM's have not been. MY poor OXIDE runs out of Ammo almost every match )

NO Ballistics are already increased from TT. However SRM's have not been. MY poor OXIDE runs out of Ammo almost every match )

k k ammo for everybody (exept lrm's that is)

[SpiralFace]

ALL OF THIS AND MORE. PGI PLEASE!

Let me explain why I think this is a bigger deal then many think:

- Armor + structure was doubled for everyone as a BASE. But ammo was only slightly increased from its TT equivilant values. Resulting in about a 25% total damage loss over their TT values. (They only got 50% more damage per tonnage over TT values, where armor + structure got 100% buff.)
- This was probably done both due to the accuracy of the fps over TT, but also to discourage Assaults and heavies from boating large amounts of weapons.
- While nobile, this doesn't do anything. Assaults and heavies already cap out their energy hard points, so an extra ton in savings won't typically add an extra ML onto the equation.
- While assaults and heavies CAN boat more ammo, there is still a hard cap on the overall damage output they can utilize, both because of the heat system that will hard cap their usage of boated weapons, and the behavior of already maximizing energy hard points won't see those few tons of savings add up to much more useable firepower in most cases.

But what it DOES do is SIGNIFICANTLY buff lighter mech's abilities to utilize ammo based weapons on lighter frames.

The current decission to undercap ammo useage REALLY hurts light mech's ability to use those weapon systems as a viable option. In TT, a commando with 2 tons of SRM ammo was concidered to have abundant supplies of ammo to last the enitre game. In this game, you need almost a ton and a half PER LAUNCHER to even concider making it to the final round.

This REALLY hampers lighter mechs from utilizing ammo based weapons as a viable option when they need to invest so much more in ammo ON TOP of their already heavier launcher weights.

This is something I cannot stress enough as something that I would like to see changed in a significant way to at least DOUBLE the damage per ton compared to the TT game to bring it into line with the way that armor and structure where buffed per-ton.

This is something that I think they need to stop worrying about what it will do for the heavies and assaults who already max out their energy quota's and are already hard caped on damage output due to their wepons themselves. It helps ligher mechs that NEED the tonnage efficiency of the ammo WAY more then the assault mechs more then it benefits the assaults.

[Darian DelFord]

Spiral are you advocating Ballistics or SRM uppage?



But what your not realizing is in TT you could not have PP FLD to one section, it was spread out. this has been the problem with MWO since inception. The TT values were already increased 50%. However SRM's have been left untouched by this. However mechs that rely on ammo and can not use anything else get shafted. Such as the Oxide.

Until PP FLD is taken care of, which for clans its a little better than the IS. increasing armor for the ballistics is a poor idea.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 18 November 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[L3mming2]

Darian DelFord, on 18 November 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Spiral are you advocating Ballistics or SRM uppage?



But what your not realizing is in TT you could not have PP FLD to one section, it was spread out. this has been the problem with MWO since inception. The TT values were already increased 50%. However SRM's have been left untouched by this. However mechs that rely on ammo and can not use anything else get shafted. Such as the Oxide.

Until PP FLD is taken care of, which for clans its a little better than the IS. increasing armor for the ballistics is a poor idea.

PP FLD is only a consern for 2 ballistics, the gauss and the ac20

SRM's are not pinpoint, and the smaller AC's are more dps, and as such easy to spread by twisting... they could realy use a ammo buff. as a example the ammo buff for the AC10 did not brake the game...

[SpiralFace]

Darian DelFord, on 18 November 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Spiral are you advocating Ballistics or SRM uppage?



But what your not realizing is in TT you could not have PP FLD to one section, it was spread out. this has been the problem with MWO since inception. The TT values were already increased 50%. However SRM's have been left untouched by this. However mechs that rely on ammo and can not use anything else get shafted. Such as the Oxide.

Until PP FLD is taken care of, which for clans its a little better than the IS. increasing armor for the ballistics is a poor idea.

Armor and structure is already being increased in significant ways through the quirk systems. On some of these mechs on PTS, nearly by an additional 50% ON TOP of the 100% boost they already got over TT. Not to mention that while PP FLD damage is an issue, trying to peg a laterally moving mech at 90 kph is probably going to get you just as much of the random spread you seek.

If anything, the ammo based weapons like SRM's and AC's are really only affected by pin point damage against slow assault mechs. Against everything else, you spread damage pretty consistently. Especially on high RoF weapons like AC 5's, 2's and SRM's.

I'm fine with curbing the ammo of some of the heavy pin point offenders like AC 20's and Gauss rifles. But the lack of usable ammunition on weapons that aren't being affected by massive amounts of FLD damage anyways ends up hampering mechs that rely on those systems. You don't hurt Assaults and heavies from using them because they already boat the ammo and are hard capped by both hard points and the heat system how much more they can bring to the table, but what it DOES affect is all of the lights and mediums who are completely USELESS as it stands now because what was 2 tons of use able ammo for an entire game in the TT needs to be almost doubled under the current systems, making ammo based weapons on things like commandos (a defining feature of the mech,) pretty much POINTLESS because they will never have the tonnage to get a usable amount of them out there.

Heavies and assaults already boat the weapons if FLD is the issue anyways, shaving an extra ton off of the 5-6 tons of usable ammo they need won't do too much to what is already powerful on them.

But its a HUGE boost to ligter designs that also have the option for ammo based weapons, and can at least allow SOME kind of advantage to where the lighter chassis' can afford to take an oxide, or a commando without struggling to fit all the ammo it needs because people are too afraid of what the assaults that are already hard capped through other systems will do with the extra ammo as well.

Edited by SpiralFace, 18 November 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

L3mming2, on 18 November 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

PP FLD is only a consern for 2 ballistics, the gauss and the ac20

SRM's are not pinpoint, and the smaller AC's are more dps, and as such easy to spread by twisting... they could realy use a ammo buff. as a example the ammo buff for the AC10 did not brake the game...

That is incorrect, Any AC that can be boated is a concern for PPFLD and has been since beta. UAC 5's and up.

I wholeheartedly agree that SRM's need to be upped.

SpiralFace, on 18 November 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

If anything, the ammo based weapons like SRM's and AC's are really only affected by pin point damage against slow assault mechs. Against everything else, you spread damage pretty consistently. Especially on high RoF weapons like AC 5's, 2's and SRM's.

Heavies and assaults already boat the weapons if FLD is the issue anyways, shaving an extra ton off of the 5-6 tons of usable ammo they need won't do too much to what is already powerful on them.

I am sorry but the PPFLD affects the lights and mediums more than anything. 1 alpha and most lights are crippled. Most of the armor and structure quirks you refer to are going to mechs which are under performing for various reasons.

Now that they have fixed lag shield and continued improvements to Hit Reg it is easy to land hits even on lights. Just ask them. There is a reason the light queue is consistently under 10%.

Part of the problem is the high alphas the AC's can be used for. Specifically the 5's and up. Granted the U 5's Gauss and 20's are the biggest offenders. However if all you do is boat weapons that require ammo with no backup weapons. That is on you.

Does ammo need to be increased for AC's currently I do not think so. IS AC's are already an issue, now SRM's absolutely I can not believe they have gone this long without their increase.

[Scanz]

i think its normal. out of ammo - your must be rebuild mech. or shoot carefull

Edited by Scanz, 18 November 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

If they bring repair/re-arm into CW ballistics will be fine.

Pretty much all of my heavies use combo ballistics/lasers. If they arent going to do re-arm then ammo needs to go up for the long game, not much though. Personally id advocate another 10 odd shots for ballisitcs, ac10 and down, prolly 15-20 for ac2's.

The reason people like lasers is they can keep firing and not worry about ammo, myself, i like the dakka boom which is why I use them.

[vocifer]

I don't see the problem with AC's.
You keep same dps but need more ammo to kill a mech.
Energy weapons will also need more shots to kill a mech, which leads to sustained fire -> lower dps.

So here's the trade - dps or damage cap. Just rework your build - replace some buffed heatsinks (not armor) for more ammo if you need.

[Widowmaker1981]

Darian DelFord, on 18 November 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

That is incorrect, Any AC that can be boated is a concern for PPFLD and has been since beta. UAC 5's and up.

I wholeheartedly agree that SRM's need to be upped.




I am sorry but the PPFLD affects the lights and mediums more than anything. 1 alpha and most lights are crippled. Most of the armor and structure quirks you refer to are going to mechs which are under performing for various reasons.

Now that they have fixed lag shield and continued improvements to Hit Reg it is easy to land hits even on lights. Just ask them. There is a reason the light queue is consistently under 10%.

Part of the problem is the high alphas the AC's can be used for. Specifically the 5's and up. Granted the U 5's Gauss and 20's are the biggest offenders. However if all you do is boat weapons that require ammo with no backup weapons. That is on you.

Does ammo need to be increased for AC's currently I do not think so. IS AC's are already an issue, now SRM's absolutely I can not believe they have gone this long without their increase.

Im sorry, but if you think boated (U)AC5s are a pinpoint problem for lights, you're wrong or bad at lights. in MWO your weapons converge to a pinpoint at the range to the object under your reticule. Since you need to lead your shots to hit fast moving mechs, they will not converge at the point of hitting the light, and will hit multiple hitboxes - yay, damage spread. The only time boated lead weapons (ACs, PPCs) get pinpoint convergence on lights / mediums is when the light/medium is moving directly toward or away from the shooter, or standing still. And if you're doing that, its on you. In a light you should ALWAYS be moving laterally to anything shooting at you.

[L3mming2]

Darian DelFord, on 18 November 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

That is incorrect, Any AC that can be boated is a concern for PPFLD and has been since beta. UAC 5's and up.

I wholeheartedly agree that SRM's need to be upped.




I am sorry but the PPFLD affects the lights and mediums more than anything. 1 alpha and most lights are crippled. Most of the armor and structure quirks you refer to are going to mechs which are under performing for various reasons.

Now that they have fixed lag shield and continued improvements to Hit Reg it is easy to land hits even on lights. Just ask them. There is a reason the light queue is consistently under 10%.

Part of the problem is the high alphas the AC's can be used for. Specifically the 5's and up. Granted the U 5's Gauss and 20's are the biggest offenders. However if all you do is boat weapons that require ammo with no backup weapons. That is on you.

Does ammo need to be increased for AC's currently I do not think so. IS AC's are already an issue, now SRM's absolutely I can not believe they have gone this long without their increase.

the higest pin point you can get with 5's is 30... and thats on a mauler with barly anny ammo and the speed of a dire wolf and a load of armor striped... a 30 pin point alpha realy is not the problem as far as i am concerned...

[Darian DelFord]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 November 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

Im sorry, but if you think boated (U)AC5s are a pinpoint problem for lights, you're wrong or bad at lights. in MWO your weapons converge to a pinpoint at the range to the object under your reticule. Since you need to lead your shots to hit fast moving mechs, they will not converge at the point of hitting the light, and will hit multiple hitboxes - yay, damage spread. The only time boated lead weapons (ACs, PPCs) get pinpoint convergence on lights / mediums is when the light/medium is moving directly toward or away from the shooter, or standing still. And if you're doing that, its on you. In a light you should ALWAYS be moving laterally to anything shooting at you.

I guess your talking about clan mechs of which I am not. IS mechs have PPFLD anve have had it since beta. Even running at 500+ meters I still get tapped by Uac 5's that blow off my arms

L3mming2, on 19 November 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

the higest pin point you can get with 5's is 30... and thats on a mauler with barly anny ammo and the speed of a dire wolf and a load of armor striped... a 30 pin point alpha realy is not the problem as far as i am concerned...

Which to a light is deadly. Which is what I and a few others pilot, that is a problem as far as I am concerned.

[Widowmaker1981]

Darian DelFord, on 19 November 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

I guess your talking about clan mechs of which I am not. IS mechs have PPFLD anve have had it since beta. Even running at 500+ meters I still get tapped by Uac 5's that blow off my arms

You misunderstand.

Say a Mauler with 6 AC5s.. they are spread across its chest, and converge from there into a pinpoint at the range to the object under the reticule. Since you cannot have the light mech you are shooting at under the reticule, because you would miss them completely due to projectile travel time, you have to lead them - i assume you are familiar with this concept? That means that the 6 AC5s are converging to a pinpoint on whatever the distance is to the terrain behind the lights movement, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME DISTANCE AS WHERE THE LIGHT IS, therefore the shots will not be fully converged, and will hit multiple hitboxes.

For example, if the light was running along the top of a hill and was skylined, the reticule would have to be over the horizon, meaning the convergance point is infinty meters, or no convergence. At that point, since the maulers chest is wider than the light mech, its actually impossible for all 6 rounds to even hit.

[Jman5]

I would suggest they follow the ac/10 ammo change and make it 200 damage per ton. It winds up saving you about 1/2 - 1 ton and 1 slot which I would argue is important if we want to make the autocannon a more efficient weapon.

AC/2: 75 -> 100
AC/5: 30 -> 40
UAC/5: 30 -> 40
AC/10: unchanged
AC/20: 7 -> 10
Gauss: debateable

[Prof RJ Gumby]

vocifer, on 19 November 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

I don't see the problem with AC's.
You keep same dps but need more ammo to kill a mech.
Energy weapons will also need more shots to kill a mech, which leads to sustained fire -> lower dps.

So here's the trade - dps or damage cap. Just rework your build - replace some buffed heatsinks (not armor) for more ammo if you need.

Yeah, only most ac mechs don't use additional heatsinks at all, and also have quite a lot of armor stripped already.

To put it short: additional armor and structure buffs are nerf to weapons used against buffed mechs. In case of energy weapons this is a singlefold nerf, against ammo-based weapons it is a double nerf - not only TTK, but also more ammo needed in general. Leaving the ammo number untouched just reinforces the laser meta. Yeah, it nerfs lasers once, but it also nerfes most alternatives twice.

Darian DelFord, on 19 November 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

I guess your talking about clan mechs of which I am not. IS mechs have PPFLD anve have had it since beta. Even running at 500+ meters I still get tapped by Uac 5's that blow off my arms

Dude, even if you would run a locust, you would need to get hit by 4uacs simultaneously... at over 500meters... unless you were already wounded and it took just 1-2 UACs to hit it.
Sorry, but you're exaggerating. Not that it CAN'T happen. I once killed a diagonally running firestarter that had one ST open with double PPCs at ~600 meters... had to aim like 100meters before him and was actually shocked I hit and hit exactly that one ST (ok, it was red, so only one PPC needed to hit). Should I now propose a nerf to PPCs because of that?

[Jabilac]

As stated above in several posts. The ammo per ton becomes a real problem the lighter a mech gets. If your in a mauler or atlas you have lotsa tonnage to work with but you are capped at available output by hardpoints (you can only shoot so many guns). The lighter mechs that could use ballistics don't because they end up with a damage cap directly related to how many ammo packs they can bring.

Cicada 3C comes to mind. 4B and 1E. What are you gonna do with that? machine guns and ERPPC for Lolz or ERPPC and AC5 with maybe 2-3tons ammo (unless you wanna go slower then 100k, which is suicide when you can be cored in 1 alpha). So you are capped at max 300-450 damage with the AC5 that you invested 8 tons to bring along. Increasing damage per ton to 200 (excluding ac20/gauss) makes those numbers 400-600 (Personally I can do better then that with all lasers on the other variants) The problem gets even worse when you get to the lighter mechs.

Increase ammo per ton to 200 damage (excluding AC/20 and gauss) or toss out some ammo per ton quirks. Something to make ammo dependent variants move viable.

Edited by Jabilac, 19 November 2015 - 12:48 PM.