What you refer to as "customization" is actually quite cannon. Unless you thought that the list of mechs in the original rules were the only mechs (and all the variants) that were ever factory produced (which they weren't - they were just the most common). How else were you going to see new designs?
I guess this book for example just isn't "canon".
It was also not UN-common for houses and even rich merc units to order "custom" designs, or modify them in house. So your objection about canon is just plain silly.
What you really want, and what everyone really should want, is for customizations to actually appear on the mech. Hunchback with a PPC welded on the arm? It really should show up.
This however will not happen in the current iteration of the game. It's a shame but currently the models are not modular enough to allow this. But no one is going to argue that it wouldn't be desirable. (In fact it would be awesome!)
Perhaps at some point Piranha may have the capability to do this, I'm sure they would have liked to have already done it, if it were feasible with technology and time and resources.
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Customization and differentiating mechs
Started by Kael Tropheus, Jul 10 2012 09:43 AM
28 replies to this topic
#22
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- Legendary Founder
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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:23 PM
Wow the tabletop rage is hilarious. I had no idea this even existed until I went onto these forums.
I think in an RP or table top setting having limited customization options actually makes alot of sense as well. I am also an Avid tabletop gamer who makes his own home brew rule systems. But the diffrence is, in a tabletop game, you can easily subtract money, or have weeks pass and still do a fight later that day. The same model does not work for video games.
I actually love the Mechwarrior VIDEO games mostly because of customization. In fact if this game did not have customization, I wouldn't play it, or I might play it in passing, for free, and not pay for it. MechAssault had the potential to be a great game, if it had customization. The engine at least was good. But the game play was lame and static, and the mechs were all standard builds, and you had no control over what they did, which is not in the spirit of the video games. Most people who know about the games do not know, or care about the tabletop.
People have fun playing around in the lab. Its cool, its interesting, its fun. Canon should allow for sufficant flexibility for someone to enjoy a game, and many people who would not be interested in battletech, are highly interested because they can customize. You can debate degree of customization, but i always believe that more freedom is better, just as a general principle in government, corporate world, law, gaming, economics, science and any other field you can possibly imagine. Freedom is generally better in all situations, but there are some exceptions.
Basically Fun + Money > Canon
Fun and Money wins.
I think in an RP or table top setting having limited customization options actually makes alot of sense as well. I am also an Avid tabletop gamer who makes his own home brew rule systems. But the diffrence is, in a tabletop game, you can easily subtract money, or have weeks pass and still do a fight later that day. The same model does not work for video games.
I actually love the Mechwarrior VIDEO games mostly because of customization. In fact if this game did not have customization, I wouldn't play it, or I might play it in passing, for free, and not pay for it. MechAssault had the potential to be a great game, if it had customization. The engine at least was good. But the game play was lame and static, and the mechs were all standard builds, and you had no control over what they did, which is not in the spirit of the video games. Most people who know about the games do not know, or care about the tabletop.
People have fun playing around in the lab. Its cool, its interesting, its fun. Canon should allow for sufficant flexibility for someone to enjoy a game, and many people who would not be interested in battletech, are highly interested because they can customize. You can debate degree of customization, but i always believe that more freedom is better, just as a general principle in government, corporate world, law, gaming, economics, science and any other field you can possibly imagine. Freedom is generally better in all situations, but there are some exceptions.
Basically Fun + Money > Canon
Fun and Money wins.
Edited by Holywar, 15 July 2012 - 05:24 PM.
#23
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- 355 posts
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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:43 PM
Holywar, on 15 July 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:
Wow the tabletop rage is hilarious. I had no idea this even existed until I went onto these forums.
Is that rage by TT players, or against them?
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Basically Fun + Money > Canon
Fun and Money wins.
Fun and Money wins.
I think the current argument seems to be whether or not customisation is or isn't canon. The OP says it isn't. I (and others) think that's a ridiculous thing to say: the official rules include customisation limited only by weight and space.
The thread is moot anyway: the level of customisation has already been set, and it even includes an extra level of restriction on top of the official rules (hardpoints) which should satisfy people like the OP who worry that particular chassis' won't be used "correctly".
Edited by Graphite, 15 July 2012 - 07:44 PM.
#24
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- Giant Helper
- 282 posts
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- LocationOrlando FL
Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:46 AM
Sorry you missed out on the fluff canon of the game(which is a huge part of the game) but I and most other TT players agree customization is not canon. It was included in the rules for game master support. Technology was not to the point in the IS where they just customize mechs on a whim. Again, extremely few mechs were customized and that was usually done for battlefield damage purposes, which then made other issues happen. Go read Snord's Irregulars sourcebook, several of their mechs have customization and their mechs act weird. The IS has invented what, a total of three or four new mechs during the entire period of the sucession wars? Innovation is not a trait of the IS. They basically built the same chassis over and over as they did not have the knowledge or ability to build new factories or do major retools. Redesigning the varients themselves took years of engineering work and design. Post-Helm memory core, this changes but it changes at a snails pace until the clans arrive and force everyone to start ramping up.
It was included in the rules as an option, mostly for game masters and special scenarios. was never intended for normal play, or especially tournament play. I have never been in a tourney that allowed it. They greatly unbalance the game. A customized 50 tonner can pretty much wipe the floor with any similar time period mech in the game on average.
So why is it silly? Hard to believe a mech designed for recon would actually be better at it than a mech just put into the role? A mech designed to be a laser boat would have its hardware and computers configured better for that role than a franken mech pushed into it?
Customization should not be a part of the game, but since it is, mechs designed for specific purposes(pretty much evey one of them) should have bonuses in their roles that will keep them on par with munchkins and their efficient customized mechs. Its not fair to loyalists who want a battletech experience to have to compromise their values of what mechs should rightfully be, to be able to compete with munchkins on an even field. Like I said, either percentages work a good way of it, or just start a server for the actual BT fans with no customization.
It was included in the rules as an option, mostly for game masters and special scenarios. was never intended for normal play, or especially tournament play. I have never been in a tourney that allowed it. They greatly unbalance the game. A customized 50 tonner can pretty much wipe the floor with any similar time period mech in the game on average.
So why is it silly? Hard to believe a mech designed for recon would actually be better at it than a mech just put into the role? A mech designed to be a laser boat would have its hardware and computers configured better for that role than a franken mech pushed into it?
Customization should not be a part of the game, but since it is, mechs designed for specific purposes(pretty much evey one of them) should have bonuses in their roles that will keep them on par with munchkins and their efficient customized mechs. Its not fair to loyalists who want a battletech experience to have to compromise their values of what mechs should rightfully be, to be able to compete with munchkins on an even field. Like I said, either percentages work a good way of it, or just start a server for the actual BT fans with no customization.
#25
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- 703 posts
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- LocationIn the "cockpit".
Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:26 PM
Find me some more Table Top players who agree that customization is not canon, because I'm a Table Top Player and have been since the 80's and you're the first TT player I've ever met who has made this claim.
#26
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- 2,905 posts
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- LocationLost
Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:30 PM
I played TT for nearly 25 years and harldly ever used customisation, except occaisionally as an adjunct in Mechwarrior RPG where it took time, money and chances of failure. Yes it could be done, but now everything is an instant field refit, including FF and ES. In some of the threads it has been posted that the game is a total fail if you don't have access to the mechlab after you know the map and your team as you "have" to have the right mech/setup for the match. Or are you saying that you had the option to totally customise every mech for the majority of matches that you played?
#27
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- 355 posts
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:44 PM
Kael Tropheus, on 16 July 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:
Sorry you missed out on the fluff canon of the game(which is a huge part of the game) but I and most other TT players agree customization is not canon.
Most TT players think customisation isn't canon? Hmm, I find that difficult to believe.
Most fluff fans think customisation isn't canon - this I could believe.
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It was included in the rules for game master support.
Yep, in the rules, end of argument....
Ok, perhaps this is all a matter of semantics - maybe it's just my use of the word "canon" you object to, because you're a hardcore fluff fan.
Personally I think the rules fit under "canon" just fine, but I really don't want to have an argument about the meaning of a word, and customisation is in MWO regardless of what you think.
Would you prefer 'legal', and/or 'official'? Customisation is official and legal. Happier?
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Its not fair to loyalists who want a battletech experience to have to compromise their values of what mechs should rightfully be, to be able to compete with munchkins on an even field. Like I said, either percentages work a good way of it, or just start a server for the actual BT fans with no customization.
Not fair?
Compromise your values!?
I don't want to be part of an emotional discussion, so I'll just leave this stuff alone, and finish it here.
#28
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- 959 posts
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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:27 AM
I think the hardpoint system MWO is using sounds like a fair compromise that keeps mechs similar but allows customisation.
Customisation was tt canon, it just had some penalties (and no hardpoint system).
Customisation was tt canon, it just had some penalties (and no hardpoint system).
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