9 replies to this topic

[Inkarnus]

Well the Yen lo feels alot slower in turn rate mostly the same as the the Hunchy 4-SP both with max engine
I felt personally that especially the wang lived from the abillity to fast shield his gun
with a maxrated engine.

The reduction in torso yaw speed from
[color="#FF0000"]Torso Yaw Speed 56.3% to[/color]
Torso Yaw Speed +35%
and the reduction of the skills really make this playstile nearly impossible to pull off.
Especially with all that 40+ alphas around i would suggest to reconsider the nerfs to the
yaw speed.
The added structure and armore doesnt make up for this since the time the gun is in the line of fire
is the biggest problem in losing it not the amount of armor for a pilot.
I know you want to make MWO less twitchy but this mech lived from his twitchyness.
Since a straight up brawl would mean he loses his cannon or it gets badly damaged in the
first meetup making it unable to engage multiple mechs if the enemy pilots are competent.

Edited by Inkarnus, 19 November 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[Vashramire]

If you have a max engine you should be around 190°/s torso twist if my math is correct. I play slower Cents around 179°/s lowered to 160's on pts. It's definitely harder but not impossible. Even at 179 I rarely lose my gun ever and 95% of the time have it and it's armor intact if I die and the Yen Lo still has the edge with a higher engine cap. The ones that are affected even more than the Yen Lo are the other Cents with lower engine caps with some having even lower yaw speed quirks. The -D has no yaw speed quirks but can equip a higher engine so depending on your build it may still twist well but still worse than live.

The biggest downside is that random armor/structure nerf/buffs to the left arms. The -A gets a whole +4 structure on the shield arm for little to no reason with no bonus armor. Same shield and geometry as the others. Most with AC20 quirks got 16 armor to main gun which is great and far better than live so you can take more hits even if you twist a bit slower or get flanked. I don't think any of the quirk values are so low that the chassis is in dire trouble or too hard to play well but some could do with a bit of a boost or consistency.

[Inkarnus]

is 235.5 °/s torso twist
on pts its 168 °/s torso twist.
Other cents are not comparable since players will imidiatly go for the cannon arm on the YLW since this is his only
main weapon and is dependant on it! the oher variants all allow for semi zombie builds. focusing the attention of the player on the center torso or just when he got some bad hits on the cannon arm.

What is more armor good for when it is in contrast easyer to hit and shave off the ac20 of the YLW?
A good player had already on live a good time shooting it off now with these changes he will surely shoot it off
or damage it so hard that i cant show it basically crippling the mech.

I thought of the YLW as a CQC mech and not a striker/supporter which he will be after the changes.

Edited by Inkarnus, 19 November 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Vashramire]

I'd say the -AH is quite comparable being that it has an AC20 arm, which is a majority of it's damage. The -AH also has it quite worse with a heavier secondary weapon forcing a smaller engine and thus slower speed/twist. It still does pretty good and is still twisting faster than heavies. PTS inflates priority targets in 4v4's though making it seem like you are more vulnerable than you are at times. You are 1 of 4 targets so obviously if you peak, they are going to go for the obvious plan of take the arm. In a 12v12 they have many targets to choose from, lowering the chance you even take a hit in the first place and allowing people to go flank easier with team distractions. It won't matter how fast you twist or how much armor is on your arm, in a 4v4 you are an easy target to neuter and either leave for later or straight kill just by piloting a Yen Lo or several of the Hunchs even. Unless you have enough team to cover you moving in, live or pts values, in a 4v4 you are an easy target.

[Inkarnus]

The AH is comparable yes but as i said he isnt dependent on the arm like the Yenlo that is forced to use it. The only Competitive build of the AH i know is with 3mgs and 3 Srm6 and 275 STD since Closed Beta and is a pure CQC monster especially with the light cent buffs and the buffs to srms that are in PTS.

The thing is that iam saying, on the ground that the Yenlo is forced to use his Cannon arm as his main Damage output, is why i said he needs more turn speed to guard it well. This goes for 12v12 or 4v4 or 2v2.

Balancing should always account for the highest player skill when applyed. No matter what, if a mech doesnt work 1v1 he doesnt work at all and is forced into a support role and the Yenlos hardpoints dont allow for a support role as a XL gaus missile supporter or facetanker like the AH can do.

It is good too that you acknowledge that the Yenlo is then forced in a striker and supporter role but tbh should he be there?
Its a canonical mech and said to have numerious special modifications for arena matches and straight up brawls and the old Quirks reflected this. Thats why he got that 52% over the Torso Yaw Speed 35% of the AH
Its PGI to decide that but for the role as CQC brawler he needs that turn speed to bait hits and shots on the cannon arm else we can just slow all mechs down remove aiming, skill and slug it out with max alpha.

To be clear my suggestion is to let the Yenlo keep his full is 235.5 °/s torso twist (300er Rating). Since he is basically locked into 1 role because of hardpoints restrictions and because hes a pretty specialized mech.This does in no way compromise chassi balance or make it OP just different.

Colonel ONeill, on 05 November 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

In a Wang you always try to show your dead left arm to the enemy and just shoot the biggest threat and duck back in cover or show him your left side again. With the reduced agility this seems to be way harder now. Your right arm with the AC20 is always the weak point. It is really hard to cover it now, as you lack agility and quirks for it.

Edited by Inkarnus, 20 November 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Vashramire]

I understand what you are saying but the thing that may vary for pilots is the torso twist speed that they feel is needed to survive or perform to the fantasy of the mech. I personally have no issues keeping gun-arms or hunchs alive with 140-170°/s twist rate. 180°/s puts you at 0.5 sec twist to fire and 0.5 sec back depending on how much face time you want added to it. Torso twist may also not even be a factor in some cases. If I know I have a higher alpha than a Yen Lo then I simple don't fire at his shield at all and either wait for him to face me because he can do no damage while turned and I just out damage him or take out his legs which often have armor stripped, which he can't hide. The Yen Lo has very obvious flaws that are easily exploited in a game where I can pick when and where I want to shoot you.

It's not your fault that the mech carries 2/3 of your firepower one 1 massive arm or the fact that your legs are now squishier than said arm. You could be a great pilot with 235° torso twist and mad skills but while you seek to remedy 1 of it's flaws you leave another open. It's just a flawed design that only works well on paper in a game that only vaguely resembles this one. If you pilot a Yen Lo against a good pilot and you think a shield or fast twisting will save you, you are likely wrong unless it's another Cent. In this game it will likely never achieve the close range puncher you dream of against any competent opponents in small 4v4 matches. You could try your same build on an ENF-4P and it would likely do better even though it has less twist speed but a sleeker profile making the gun harder to hit in the first place and an inferior shield arm.

Ideally the Centurions need a rescale to fix the easy to hit main gun on a low alpha mech and make it narrower overall to help it's survivability and weapon durability. Saying you want the mech to keep it's super high torso twist, that if PTS went live would exceed most if not all lights, just to make it functional for you speaks to the mechs issues which are also geometry based. Torso twist isn't going to fix this and we don't need bandaids.

[Inkarnus]

oO tfw. we are speaking about chassis and special chassie balance atm and you bring up legging? seriosly are you out of arguments? I would really love to know how much games you logged with a Yenlo (remember devs can check on that).
Since your argumentation just goes ways that it is really just silly.

Rescale wont happen apperently since well it vanished from PTS 1-2 to now so it is apperently anyway out of question to ask for it.

To reinforce the superior speed is to BAIT shoots against the cannon arm or to fast shield when you predict the counter shots.
its called gamesense and with the speed as of now you cant do that you will be always open to shots to the Gun arm
why wont you understand that? The gun arm is on the far outer place of the model and is through that already slower turning into safty then a hunchys mainbody or easy in a picture

[WANTED]

Inkarnus is right. The Yen lo makes its main strength off of snap firing the AC 20 and quickly blocking with left arm incoming fire. I'm mainly a yen lo pilot and have over 320 games in it. To lose that strength would be ashame. I will have to download the PtS 4 to test fully this change.

[Vashramire]

You must be some special kind of dilutional. You just think you Yen Lo needs special treatment in torso twist because you can't "bait" shots or use terrain properly since you make it sound like you just run out in the open with your shield arm and try and for a fight, and then compare it to the Hunchback which even turned 90° and using its arm and torso to shield still has it's main cannon torso exposed and is very much not hidden at the 45° your picture illustrates.

And yes legging is a tactic, if you "bait" me I will leg you instead of shooting your dumb shield. It's common sense. And that's being kind if we are near the same tonnage and I don't already outrange you. Or alternatively I could just take your side torso when you twist to shoot and I never have to twist against you unless I'm running lower tonnage. My HBK-4G has an alpha of 35. I can take your gun in 2 alphas or more likely your side torso knowing you are running an XL and can only take 70 damage. So I can take your gun or kill you and never have to shoot your shield or even turn away because I know unless I am already hurt by something else that you can't kill me. Then somehow you think that giving it the fastest torso twist in the game is going to fix that. While it does suck to have a slower twist, that isn't the main problem. You can't see that so I'm not even going to bother to continue to remind you it's a mech not a tornado.

[Inkarnus]

*shakes head*
First rule of a discussion if logical argumentation fails go adhominem.
*slowly claps*
dilutional is that even an english word?

My points are still valid and since you just like to distract from them without disproving them, even going so far as proving them right in your own explanations. I dont see further need to go into your iterations of "balance" or understanding of the "game mechanics" with you. On top it seems you are not even a Yenlo
player yourself always referring to the HBK and leaving the question open how much games you logged with
the Yenlo.

Edited by Inkarnus, 21 November 2015 - 10:01 AM.