119 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

I have to ask: Why do peole focus on this B.S. about how losing a side torso on a Clan Mech makes you lose 20% of your Engine, so you'll face a 20% loss on output...

Um, sorry, but losing a side torso on a Clan Mech makes you lose 66% of your Engine health, not 20%. Engines only have 3 crit points of health. Lose of a side torso means your Engine just lost 2/3 of its health. I don't care if you lost 20% of your "slots" because you lost 66% of your "Health."

Health determines functionality.

Engines that lose 66% of their health should face some pretty darn signicant debuffs if you ask me.

P.S. Hey, I'm not asking for a straight 66% penalty on all outputs... I just never want to hear the term "lose 20%" ever again when discussing Clan ST loss.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 November 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

We must be careful for what we wish for. Remember, Clan 'mechs don't have arms to shield their side torsos with. There's a reason I lose my side torso significantly more often in Clan robits than Inner Sphere ones.

[Duke Nedo]

As long as you don't have to think about whether or not to put a cXL in all your IIc battlemechs, there is no balance. Simple as that... but PGI has chosen their path I guess. Have mercy.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Hey, I'm not asking for a straight 66% penalty on all outputs... I just never want to hear the term "lose 20%" ever again when discussing Clan ST loss.

[AbyssalTyrant]

For a moment I thought you were arguing against the nerf period. Anyway start out low if they do need something more add it later after another pts . That said there are already enough " the clans are balanced and dont need nerf posts" , I imagine adding more penalties would just increase the amount of whining.

[Paigan]

Prosperity Park, on 19 November 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

I have to ask: Why do peole focus on this B.S. about how losing a side torso on a Clan Mech makes you lose 20% of your Engine, so you'll face a 20% loss on output...

Um, sorry, but losing a side torso on a Clan Mech makes you lose 66% of your Engine health, not 20%. Engines only have 3 crit points of health. Lose of a side torso means your Engine just lost 2/3 of its health. I don't care if you lost 20% of your "slots" because you lost 66% of your "Health."

Health determines functionality.

Engines that lose 66% of their health should face some pretty darn signicant debuffs if you ask me.

P.S. Hey, I'm not asking for a straight 66% penalty on all outputs... I just never want to hear the term "lose 20%" ever again when discussing Clan ST loss.

Reactors don't have 3 crits of "health", but they blow up after 3 crits. That is a very simple and very significant difference.
If you want to talk in "health" terms, then Std engines have 6 slots, XL have 12 slots, C-XL have 10 slots.

Also, it's not like XX% of the whole reactor are "bitten" out or something, it's more like the shielding getting cracked.
I could argue here that 2 slots of 10 are 20%, but I think it's more reasonable to see the 20% as a "serious crack in the shielding".

So, if I may use your wording, "I just never want to hear failed basic math and technical imagination".

[Felicitatem Parco]

Paigan, on 19 November 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Reactors don't have 3 crits of "health", but they blow up after 3 crits. That is a very simple and very significant difference.
If you want to talk in "health" terms, then Std engines have 6 slots, XL have 12 slots, C-XL have 10 slots.

Also, it's not like XX% of the whole reactor are "bitten" out or something, it's more like the shielding getting cracked.
I could argue here that 2 slots of 10 are 20%, but I think it's more reasonable to see the 20% as a "serious crack in the shielding".

So, if I may use your wording, "I just never want to hear failed basic math and technical imagination".

So, according to your post, losing 2 slots should not equate to any kind of 20% debuffs because "there's a very signicant difference" between slots and health, and losing 2 slots does not mean your reactor is cranking out 20% less power. It's just some shielding, and output does not correlate directly to number of slots lost.

So, what happens when you lose 4 slots? You should have 60% of your health left... Oh wait, it exploded. You have no health left.

See, I see it as losing 3 slots means losing 100% health just as losing 0 slots mean losing 0% health. I just fit a line through those data points.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 November 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

I want to see atleast 1/3 or you're not even going to really tell. Of course after all the nerfs some of the worst clan mechs will need quirks.

[AbyssalTyrant]

Yeah but that is always going to be the case , its impossible to avoid when you have a factions with god awful lows and god tier highs.

Edited by AbyssalTyrant, 19 November 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

How can you have more than 50% of the engine in both side torsos? 66% + 66% + <some ct number> is still over 100%. What?

[Night Thastus]

The Clan XL engine takes up 10 slots total. Lose 2 of them, and you get 20% reduction.

Before it was nothing. Be happy.

[Duke Nedo]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 19 November 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

How can you have more than 50% of the engine in both side torsos? 66% + 66% + <some ct number> is still over 100%. What?

He means that losing 2 "crits" is 2/3 on the path to destruction. Too harsh in practice, the real fix is normalizing XL behavior between factions... everything else is a bad decision imo.

[Lugh]

Prosperity Park, on 19 November 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

I have to ask: Why do peole focus on this B.S. about how losing a side torso on a Clan Mech makes you lose 20% of your Engine, so you'll face a 20% loss on output...

Um, sorry, but losing a side torso on a Clan Mech makes you lose 66% of your Engine health, not 20%. Engines only have 3 crit points of health. Lose of a side torso means your Engine just lost 2/3 of its health. I don't care if you lost 20% of your "slots" because you lost 66% of your "Health."

Health determines functionality.

Engines that lose 66% of their health should face some pretty darn signicant debuffs if you ask me.

P.S. Hey, I'm not asking for a straight 66% penalty on all outputs... I just never want to hear the term "lose 20%" ever again when discussing Clan ST loss.

Sorry son back to math school for you. While it's 1/3 of the that's 33% of the mechs engine looking at it from the torso's perspecitive the engine actually has 10 total internal slots...

So the 2 on the side are only 20% of the total.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Duke Nedo, on 19 November 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

He means that losing 2 "crits" is 2/3 on the path to destruction. Too harsh in practice, the real fix is normalizing XL behavior between factions... everything else is a bad decision imo.

I still don't get it. Something just doesn't... add up

[wanderer]

The three crits (or two in Clan cases) for XL side torsos represent the engine shielding being bulky enough to be exposed across greater portion of a 'Mech than the more compact but far heavier standard engine's. It only takes partial damage to ruin engine function and disable said shielding- and in terms of mechanical damage, the shielding naturally goes -first-, with the actual engine being much more heavily protected behind it.

One of the pre-requisites for a "Stackpole" (engine explosion) is taking more critical hits to the engine than it needs to actually force a shutdown (that is, four or more) in TT in a very short period of time.

Of course, the fact that -MWO can't model engine damage- leads to this song and dance. If they were doing it right, engines would be spewing out .5 heat/sec at 66% shielding health, 1 heat/sec at 33% and be a kill at 0% health, but apparently actually modeling internal damage is too hard for Paul.

Engine damage. Gyro damage. Actuator damage. Huge chunks of meaningful complexity (unlike ghost anything), lost.

[Juodas Varnas]

20% is waaaaaaaaay too tame.
Should've been at least 40% to start with and then adjust it based on how it performs in-game.

Here's the thing. It'd still be 100% better than the IS XL engine.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 19 November 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[TamCoan]

Not sure I agree with normalizing XLs across factions. If you make clan and IS XLs function the same than what about IS light fusion when they drop?

Anyway, clan XL is really one of the two advantages that clans have over IS, the other being longer laser range. I don't feel that you can only talk about nerfing one of the two clan advantages without also looking at all of the downsides they currently have vs. IS. IMHO it's more complex than just that.

Honestly a clan mech who has lost a side torso and keeps overheating because of the heat penalty is a dead mech regardless. I love fighting with a clan mech who is panicking because he lost a ST and can't get a volley in! Make it a higher penalty and the vultures will circle those guys even more.

Edited by TamCoan, 19 November 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

10 Crit slots on Clan XL engines, 12 on IS engines..

Take off a clan torso, he has 8 slots remaining out of 10, that is 20%

Where are you coming up with this 66% when 80% of the engine still remains?

[Juodas Varnas]

Mister D, on 19 November 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

10 Crit slots on Clan XL engines, 12 on IS engines..

Take off a clan torso, he has 8 slots remaining out of 10, that is 20%

Where are you coming up with this 66% when 80% of the engine still remains?

Would you also agree on having IS XL engines not result in death upon a side torso destruction and just have a 25% reduction?
I mean, it'd still have 9/12 slots remaining, wouldn't it?

[TamCoan]

No, the rule is losing 3 crits results in the engine blowing up, I have no problem with that. If I run an IS XL I know what will kill me. I also know that I have lower heat build up, can stay in the fight longer without overheating and that blowing off both STs of any clanner will always kill him. I don't always know that vs. an IS mech.