45 replies to this topic

[Chef Kerensky]

A mech running LRMs will absolutely outdamage a good player using lasers, because the player firing lasers will core out his target before dealing half its health in damage.

[Valdherre Tor]

Mech The Dane, on 22 November 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

I have heard more then a few people on the FRR hub tell me with complete confidence and total conviction that there is a place in drops for support rule mechs that do little no damage.

An example I was given was a mech dedicated to turret killing in CW. But I don't think that is a serious example. My best guess for what kind of mech these people are thinking about is maybe a light with narc and tag, who helps lrm boats get targets. Maybe there are some other roles I am not aware of since I never put a mech in one of ISEN's dropdeck that isn't capable of doing damage.

This brings me to next point I have heard and that is LRM's are good to bring as well, that they just require an experienced hand to use properly. Plus, anyone making a case for a support mech that has narc and tag is obviously also advocating LRMs.

You can't make this stuff up. I know exactly what your talking about. These guys also spent GXP and C-bills on LRM range moduals.

Here are some of the things I have seen from guys playing on the FRR hub.

-I have seen players launching LRMs beyond 1500 meters of said target.
-I have seen players dump 800 missles onto turrets that haven't even opened up in CW.
-I have seen players die from turret fire b4 the gates are even open in CW.
-We had a guy come drop with our unit from another unit and he had 3 locusts with one LPL builds in his deck and swore by them. (stats proved to be sub-200ish through 4 mechs)
-I have seen Ravens with standard engines.
-I have seen Ravens with 11 tons of NARC ammo.
-I have seen duel TAGs, one in each arm. you know in-case he loses an arm.
-i have seen some things man.... the flash backs, oh god the flash backs, it hurts.

You might read some of those and think new players but sadly no, were talking founders and phoenix pack holders. and in some cases unit leaders, that really truly do believe they are onto the next meta or OP build. smh

As for the support role mech that does little to no DMG..... well that's just an excuse for someone sucks at doing anything but being a potato.

[Valdherre Tor]

Sjorpha, on 23 November 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I have yet to see evidence that LRM decks can beat comparably good direct fire teams, I'm also interested to see examples of it being done.

I've seen LRM advocates posting screenshots of doing well in pug matches or LRM teams doing well pugstomping, but never seen it as a working strategy in a competitive setup. I might just have missed it though.

When facing LRM heavy teams with a coordinated group all I see is free kills, to be honest. It's like: "Ok guys they are going heavy on LRMs so we'll outgun them as soon as we see them. CHARGE!"

^this... I feel that LRMs are not even a threat, I don't even run AMS on any of my mechs.

[Tarogato]

Valdherre Tor, on 24 November 2015 - 01:22 AM, said:

^this... I feel that LRMs are not even a threat, I don't even run AMS on any of my mechs.

Ditto. I never run AMS. It's a waste of tonnage - I almost never get rained on and I've certainly never considered LRMs a worthy enough threat to me to take any precautions against them. "Incoming missile"? Sidestep; crisis averted.

[Scurro]

And this is why Mech the Dane is asking you to show your thoughts in game.

If you disagree, show him how you are right with a scrimmage.

[Khereg]

Tarogato, on 24 November 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Ditto. I never run AMS. It's a waste of tonnage - I almost never get rained on and I've certainly never considered LRMs a worthy enough threat to me to take any precautions against them. "Incoming missile"? Sidestep; crisis averted.

Careful, though. There's an interpretation that says if LRM's are so ineffective that AMS is a waste of tonnage, well then, they obviously need a substantial buff...

<hides>

[Jarl Dane]

FIGHT ME WITH YOUR LRMS AND TEACH ME HUMILITY!
OR LEARN IT!

[SuperAtomicAirplane]

No one in the FRR has challenged Dane. We must all be agreement on the issue, then.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

FIGHT ME WITH YOUR LRMS AND TEACH ME HUMILITY!
OR LEARN IT!

I kinda wanna try this, but remember, I get to bring the HBK-4Jman...

EDIT: In all seriousness though, I'll hit up some of the guys in QQ to see if they might be down for trying this sometime next week.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 24 November 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[mikerso]

Just gonna throw this out there:

I think lrm boats can be effective, but they must have brawling capabilities. I agree with those saying that lrm boats must be willing to get their own targets. But if you bring a lrm dedicated mech with no brawling capabilities to clan wars, be prepared to die.

[BossmanX]

I am not the person to tell you how to play the game or wether Im a good player or not, however I can tell you that every CW match I bring my BLR-1S to (wich is all of them) I do on average 800 damage in that mech alone. The whole match I'll average about 1500 damage. That BLR is the only missile boat I bring the rest are brawlers/directfire. So between the other three damage I do maybe as much as I do in the one BLR... This is not proof that LRMs are superior just proof that I am a superior LRM pilot.. Of course I never just hang back and fire... Im consistantly within 500 meters of all targets that my 50damage missile voley hits.. and ecm doesnt stop me cause half the time I manually aim the missiles (yes that works point and they go where you aim lol), the other half I wait for a lock if I have a good spotter... The mech also has 4 medium lasers so I am still hitting with enough lasers to fight most lights and mediums that get within fighting range of me and the ones that do have already generally been hit by my lrms a few times so I only need a few laser volleys to finnish them.. Again there is no wrong way to play the game and I cant claim to be awesome by any means, the point of this is that your argument is absurd. There is no directfire is better argument cause if there was I would out damage my blr simply because I use direct fire mechs for 3/4ths my drop deck. But I don't, and that means only one thing, people are better at different mechs and designing a strategy around one type of mech is stupid unless you don't allow players who are bad at direct fire to play with you. Wich is fine but last I checked FRR has no territory left in cw so maybe a new tactic is needed instead of only directfire lol.

[Famous]

BossmanX, on 24 November 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

I am not the person to tell you how to play the game or wether Im a good player or not, however I can tell you that every CW match I bring my BLR-1S to (wich is all of them) I do on average 800 damage in that mech alone. The whole match I'll average about 1500 damage. That BLR is the only missile boat I bring the rest are brawlers/directfire. So between the other three damage I do maybe as much as I do in the one BLR... This is not proof that LRMs are superior just proof that I am a superior LRM pilot.. Of course I never just hang back and fire... Im consistantly within 500 meters of all targets that my 50damage missile voley hits.. and ecm doesnt stop me cause half the time I manually aim the missiles (yes that works point and they go where you aim lol), the other half I wait for a lock if I have a good spotter... The mech also has 4 medium lasers so I am still hitting with enough lasers to fight most lights and mediums that get within fighting range of me and the ones that do have already generally been hit by my lrms a few times so I only need a few laser volleys to finnish them.. Again there is no wrong way to play the game and I cant claim to be awesome by any means, the point of this is that your argument is absurd. There is no directfire is better argument cause if there was I would out damage my blr simply because I use direct fire mechs for 3/4ths my drop deck. But I don't, and that means only one thing, people are better at different mechs and designing a strategy around one type of mech is stupid unless you don't allow players who are bad at direct fire to play with you. Wich is fine but last I checked FRR has no territory left in cw so maybe a new tactic is needed instead of only directfire lol.

Not to be rude but when was the last time you looked at the CW map? FRR has plenty of territory, are you maybe looking at Ghost Bear and mixing them up?

Moving on your anecdotes actually reinforce Mech's assertion that pure support mechs have no place in CW, by your own admission you carry enough lasers to brawl with.

As multiple vikings have pointed out Mech is literally asking for someone to demonstrate how a support mech can fit into a "standard" CW drop deck, if you haven't been to the FRR section of the board you're probably unaware that he is actually making a push to train up us PUGs who drop with FRR but have no unit affiliation. If you, or anyone, can show the value of LRMs in CW then that's something to train PUGs on, if you can't then why focus on something that is second or third tier.

I run my Stalker 3F with 2xALRM10, 2xALRM5, and 6xMPLs, but only for PUG games. It's a goofy build that I wouldn't take anywhere near CW

[Azghuld]

don't think you'll see a many LRM-fit mechs after the reseen start filtering in, especially after the Rifleman

(60 times 4 equals....)

Edited by Nathan Dune, 24 November 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[BossmanX]

I stand corrected on the territory and you were correct I thought that gb had all that (they really need to change those colors a bit more to make them more distinguishable), but as far my mech no 4 medium lasers isn't enough by themselves but in conjunction with lrms they are more than adequate to finish the job..

[Jimt0r]

in my experience with support mechs that carry narc

yes running about 2-4 less tons of ammo/guns makes you a less effective mech

but to take the chance to lead the bull about by the nose waving that red Dorito (for 30 sec) in its face can really be effective

it is not a replacement to good target calling, but can be a very effective in conjunction



also tag is useless, it consistently gives away our team position and its usefulness disappears as soon as it gets turned off

to my point of view all missiles that require a lock are useless as it takes too long to get a lock, and that lock is lost too easy

[BossmanX]

As I pointed out in an earlier post you can fire LRMS without lock and be very effective... You just have to practice and get good at it...SSRMS I can't argue there... you can't even fire them without a lock which is ********..

[Kshat]

LRMs can be the bane of a team - IF things add up.
Open terrain, almost no ECM, enough direct fire mechs/brawlers to keep the enemy from rushing the Lurmboats.
A spotter is viable? No, not with TAG. No spotter would survive keeping the TAG on target.
TAG is for missile-mechs to get their locks themself. This holds especially true for SSRMs. Even if these only play a role in Clantech...

You drive a brawler with heat issues? Then you gain nothing from adding another medium laser. And one heatsink on top won't tip the scales. But adding TAG to constantly mark the target in front of you will add some additional damage on him, especially since LRMs are the only weapon which are able to fire over your head. Brawling often enough blocks the line of fire for your comrades.
If you got loads of additional weight to spend, adding NARC in a brawler could be viable as well.

NARC and LRMs (and, in a weaker role, LRMs alone) can have quite the substantial effect on the enemy. If people know they're NARC'd or that missiles are heading their way, they' ll head for cover.
But guess what? They can't shoot through cover. So, through the looming danger of LRMs, they are essentially CC'd out of combat, which let their enemies gain the numeric superiority.

And all of this is useless if there is ECM on the field. You can't even NARC these targets, since you would have to NARC every ECM in range.
Are LRMs a viable weapon?
If certain criteria are met, ofc.
Would I advise to use them?
No, because there are too many "ifs" to make them work.

And: if you got aim, you're faster off to just rip the essential part of your enemy to pieces instead of showering him with rockets, slowly grinding his whole existence.

In short: the whole lock/ECM/counter-gameplay is severely broken. It leads to LRMs being too good to be true with insane damage counts and - to the end - true killing potential, or ridiculing LRMs to absolute uselessness.

[Jimt0r]

Valdherre Tor, on 24 November 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

-I have seen Ravens with 11 tons of NARC ammo.
-I have seen duel TAGs, one in each arm. you know in-case he loses an arm.
.

what a smelly bunch of nub cakes there
per mech 1 ton of narc is sufficient, 2 tons is over kill

i have only ever used narc in direct fire plays, even though i never have been rewarded for it apart from the win bonus. i am happy enough that that the target is focused down and has made the the calling for the drop commander easier to find that open spot on the mech

that being said i have not brought out my NARC-mando or other narc based variants (raven 3L) since ISEN got more competitive and stopped doing 12man drops on the pug que

[Tarogato]

Jimt0r, on 24 November 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

what a smelly bunch of nub cakes there
per mech 1 ton of narc is sufficient, 2 tons is over kill

i have only ever used narc in direct fire plays, even though i never have been rewarded for it apart from the win bonus. i am happy enough that that the target is focused down and has made the the calling for the drop commander easier to find that open spot on the mech

that being said i have not brought out my NARC-mando or other narc based variants (raven 3L) since ISEN got more competitive and stopped doing 12man drops on the pug que

I could never get away with only one ton of Narc. Just in public queue drops I used to run 2.5 tons of Narc ammo. Any less and I would definitely run out before the end of the match. Of course, that was before I joined Isen, and I don't Narc anymore because it's a lot of tonnage spent on something that isn't guaranteed to deal damage. Also, I've never tried in CW, where I'm sure you'd need more ammo to light up at least a wave and a half worth of targets.

[Sjorpha]

SuperAtomicAirplane, on 24 November 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

No one in the FRR has challenged Dane. We must all be agreement on the issue, then.

I don't think there is much to disagree on, the current sad state of LRMs is obvious to anyone with a clue.

I would honestly love to play both with and against MtD and ISEN proper, but I honestly don't think my unit can scrape a strong enough team together. We have some good players and commanders in the hussars, but we're overall too casual, and there's currently no routine of the good players forming up to go competitive so the playstyle is organized around having a team with very mixed skill levels.

I'm still totally up for it, and one way could be to scrape up heavy hitters from some different units maybe. We could also maybe take turns doing the LRM side, for science!

If what you want to find is a team of properly good players that seriously advocates LRMs as a functioning strategy I think that's hard to find right now.

But one person I actually do know who is both a very good player, hangs on the FRR hub and claimed to have been in a working LRM focused unit earlier is Timberwolf5, so if you want to really test this out he should be DCing the LRM side.