192 replies to this topic

[PFC Carsten]

demoyn, on 09 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

This is what happens when kids get trophies for last place.

And that's what happens, when parents applaud their kids for burning ants with a magnifying glass instead of teaching them ethics.

[demoyn]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

And that's what happens, when parents applaud their kids for burning ants with a magnifying glass instead of teaching them ethics.

So having the opinion that a group of people working as a team should be rewarded is unethical? The logic is strong with this one...

[PFC Carsten]

demoyn, on 09 December 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

So having the opinion that a group of people working as a team should be rewarded is unethical? The logic is strong with this one...

Logic indeed seems not to be one of your strong traits, but maybe you'll learn in time. People playing together and beating other people playing together should be rewarded richly. Very much so. But people playing together making the game unenjoyable for new players and thus diminishing the direly needed influx of new players into that dying game mode that's called FaP should be prevented from doing so. For example by means of a matchmaker, putting premades against premades, vets against vets and new players against similarly new players. Game is enjoyable and challending for every group of players, more players play the game, more money for PGI, more Mech-goodness for all of us.

[AlmightyAeng]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

And that's what happens, when parents applaud their kids for burning ants with a magnifying glass instead of teaching them ethics.

What if they're wood ants attacking the foundation of your home? I'd applaud the kid for responsible awareness, civic duty and ingenuity in using clean solar energy to solve the problem.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 09 December 2015 - 01:54 PM.

[pwnface]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Logic indeed seems not to be one of your strong traits, but maybe you'll learn in time. People playing together and beating other people playing together should be rewarded richly. Very much so. But people playing together making the game unenjoyable for new players and thus diminishing the direly needed influx of new players into that dying game mode that's called FaP should be prevented from doing so. For example by means of a matchmaker, putting premades against premades, vets against vets and new players against similarly new players. Game is enjoyable and challending for every group of players, more players play the game, more money for PGI, more Mech-goodness for all of us.

Honestly people keep saying premade vs pug is what is killing CW but I don't think it's true. In CW beta 1 we often maxed out the HK teamspeak of 125 slots during NA primetime. These were mostly unit premades with some pugs sprinkled in. Now there are rarely more than 24 people doing CW in there at any given time. I believe players want a more meaningful game mode and pointless tags on planets isn't going to cut it. Activity dropped immediately when the map was reset. People don't like pointless progress.

Also, what is so unethical about burning ants? People buy raid and other insecticides all the time.

[demoyn]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Logic indeed seems not to be one of your strong traits, but maybe you'll learn in time.

Nice skin you put on your "I know you are but what am I" comeback. You must have been the king of your second grade class.

As far as the game is concerned, if you don't like hardcore mode don't play it. We'll be just fine without you.

[PFC Carsten]

demoyn, on 09 December 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Nice skin you put on your "I know you are but what am I" comeback. You must have been the king of your second grade class.

As far as the game is concerned, if you don't like hardcore mode don't play it. We'll be just fine without you.

Whatever the hell that means, but your referrals to last-place kids, insufficient logic and now 2nd grade give you away. I am only sorry I wasted 2 minutes of my lifetime in dealing with you.

[Sandpit]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Logic indeed seems not to be one of your strong traits, but maybe you'll learn in time. People playing together and beating other people playing together should be rewarded richly. Very much so. But people playing together making the game unenjoyable for new players and thus diminishing the direly needed influx of new players into that dying game mode that's called FaP should be prevented from doing so. For example by means of a matchmaker, putting premades against premades, vets against vets and new players against similarly new players. Game is enjoyable and challending for every group of players, more players play the game, more money for PGI, more Mech-goodness for all of us.

please show me where new players are enticed, encouraged, forced, coerced, etc. to participate in CW.

As a matter of fact, since we're discussing logic, there are several WARNINGS for any player joining CW to expect a much more difficult gaming experience.

Since we're int he CW section of the forums it's safe to assume we're talking CW queues and battles here.

Sorry, but the whole "baby seal being touched by the premade boogeyman" wasn't relevant 3 years ago and it's not relevant now.

Apnu, on 09 December 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

I think premade vs PUG tilts the table toward the premade and that needs to be fixed in CW.

Let me stop you there
PUG = Pick up group which is a premade

There is no such thing as PUG vs. premade imbalance because both os those are the exact same thing. Period

[Ufnal]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Logic indeed seems not to be one of your strong traits, but maybe you'll learn in time. People playing together and beating other people playing together should be rewarded richly. Very much so. But people playing together making the game unenjoyable for new players and thus diminishing the direly needed influx of new players into that dying game mode that's called FaP should be prevented from doing so. For example by means of a matchmaker, putting premades against premades, vets against vets and new players against similarly new players. Game is enjoyable and challending for every group of players, more players play the game, more money for PGI, more Mech-goodness for all of us.

I might be misremembering, but the amount of actual new players stating they don't like how CW looks in this thread is very small, especially compared to the numbers of veterans with strong opinions on either side of the fence.

[PFC Carsten]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

please show me where new players are enticed, encouraged, forced, coerced, etc. to participate in CW.

As a matter of fact, since we're discussing logic, there are several WARNINGS for any player joining CW to expect a much more difficult gaming experience.

As long as there's no hard requirement in order to participate in FaP, the button in MWO's main menu together with the rewards promised (remember: pretty easy to earn mechbays might be a strong argument for new players to try this!) is encouragement enough in my books.

FWIW, FaP veterans should have noticed that apart from events, the"hardmode" oftentimes is not as populated as it could be. There IS a need for fresh player influx and getting/keeping these players motivated is key in order for MWO for flourish. I - and I think you will side with me at least here - WANT MWO to succeed, that's why I helped founding it.

And thinking of it: Also for premades/experienced unit vets a close game must be much more fun and rewarding than an easy 48-1x victory where half the kills are from ejecting players on the own team. Correct me if I'm wrong here in thinking that mostly everyone loves good competition.

Ufnal, on 09 December 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

I might be misremembering, but the amount of actual new players stating they don't like how CW looks in this thread is very small, [...]

You're completely right. But why would that be? How many new players wouls bother to post here instead of just quit playing what is not fun to them?

Edited by PFC Carsten, 09 December 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[Apnu]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Let me stop you there
PUG = Pick up group which is a premade

There is no such thing as PUG vs. premade imbalance because both os those are the exact same thing. Period

As far as I understand it. PUG does mean "pick up group" and, it seems, around here it means "random players thrown together" And "premade" is a organized group of players, usually associated with a unit that trains as a unit and brings specific drop decks.

The two, in my opinion are very different. I've done both things in CW. "premades" have a distinct advantage over PUGing in in CW. Just like they did before CW and the introduction of the solo queue in what's now called by Russ as "Quick Play"

[demoyn]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Whatever the hell that means, but your referrals to last-place kids, insufficient logic and now 2nd grade give you away. I am only sorry I wasted 2 minutes of my lifetime in dealing with you.

I'm sorry you wasted these two minutes as well. It would have been much easier for all concerned if you'd have just not been wrong to start with.

[Sandpit]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

As long as there's no hard requirement in order to participate in FaP, the button in MWO's main menu together with the rewards promised (remember: pretty easy to earn mechbays might be a strong argument for new players to try this!) is encouragement enough in my books.

FWIW, FaP veterans should have noticed that apart from events, the"hardmode" oftentimes is not as populated as it could be. There IS a need for fresh player influx and getting/keeping these players motivated is key in order for MWO for flourish. I - and I think you will side with me at least here - WANT MWO to succeed.

And thinking of it: Also for premades/experienced unit vets a close game must be much more fun and rewarding than an easy 48-1x victory where half the kills are from ejecting players on the own team. Correct me if I'm wrong here in thinking that mostly everyone loves good competition.

the population has nothign to do with being "hard" it has to do with there's no real point. There's no story, there's no "war", there's no lore, there's nothing but a map that changes colors with no real strategy, importance of planets, etc.

It's quite simply just a mode that many use as a dedicated group queue so they don't have to be berated and called "seal clubbers", "noob hunters", "bad", "cheaters", "exploiters", etc. simply because they want to play a team based game as a *gasp* team

I've posted some suggestions on how to help improve all of that in CW with relatively simple and easy changes. Check them out and let me know what you think

Edit:
Until you let go of the "evil premade" mentality you'll never start being able to "fix" anything. Especially when discussing an optional section of the game (the only one I might add) that actually caters to groups. There are several options for solo type players and players that dont' want to be a part of a team and play as such to go have fun.

Expecting, asking, wanting, or otherwise implying that the one and only section that offers large groups a consistent area to play is silly at best and simply QQing because the entire game doesn't revolve around them at worst

Edited by Sandpit, 09 December 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Sandpit]

Apnu, on 09 December 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

As far as I understand it. PUG does mean "pick up group" and, it seems, around here it means "random players thrown together" And "premade" is a organized group of players, usually associated with a unit that trains as a unit and brings specific drop decks.

The two, in my opinion are very different. I've done both things in CW. "premades" have a distinct advantage over PUGing in in CW. Just like they did before CW and the introduction of the solo queue in what's now called by Russ as "Quick Play"

That's because people want to imply that anyone in a premade group is some sort of "hardcore" dedicated group. It's intentional and always has been. It started at the end of closed beta and was quite simply just a propaganda tool for those players still complaining about it today.

[Lyoto Machida]

illudium Q 36, on 25 November 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

I think that it is the delta (size differential) of the losses, not the frequency of them, that causes concerns. I understand that life isn't fair, so why should Community Warfare be fair?

But evening up the odds to get a closer game would do a lot to pique interest from ALL sides, in my opinion.

Well, it's kind of the same thing with gun homicides in the U.S. Homicides via firearms (losses in CW) are down from their peak in the 1980s but mass shootings (large stomps) keep getting reported on...don't always believe the hype.

The loudest voices aren't always correct...



http://www.pewresear...-rate-edges-up/

[PFC Carsten]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

I've posted some suggestions on how to help improve all of that in CW with relatively simple and easy changes. Check them out and let me know what you think

Nice - i will if i by chance stumble upon them. Are they in this thread?

Sandpit, on 09 December 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Edit:
Until you let go of the "evil premade" mentality you'll never start being able to "fix" anything.

You mistake me for someone else it seems. I have no reason to and therefore do not believe that premades are evil. Contrary, I want MWO to thrive and survive so that all players can enjoy it for a long time and maybe even get some new content if MWO is fun enough so that enough people are pouring their money to PGI.

Sandpit, on 09 December 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Especially when discussing an optional section of the game (the only one I might add) that actually caters to groups. There are several options for solo type players and players that dont' want to be a part of a team and play as such to go have fun.

Expecting, asking, wanting, or otherwise implying that the one and only section that offers large groups a consistent area to play is silly at best and simply QQing because the entire game doesn't revolve around them at worst

Well, on the one hand you ignore the group queue, which is the solo PUGers equivalent of Quick Play, so there's level playing field here.

On the other hand you imply by threat of silliness or QQing that FaP is group-land. I tend to see that differently. In Quick play, there's separate queues, no reason not to set up another IS, where solos can fight in ad-hoc teams over planets as well.

Units would not miss out on a single thing from this option - they still can play over a consistent (well, barring map resets, so that's that) area. No solo PUGer will take their drop slots away. Absolutely easy, no problem, no need to cry for anyone.

[Sandpit]

PFC Carsten, on 09 December 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

Nice - i will if i by chance stumble upon them. Are they in this thread?


You mistake me for someone else it seems. I have no reason to and therefore do not believe that premades are evil. Contrary, I want MWO to thrive and survive so that all players can enjoy it for a long time and maybe even get some new content if MWO is fun enough so that enough people are pouring their money to PGI.


Well, on the one hand you ignore the group queue, which is the solo PUGers equivalent of Quick Play, so there's level playing field here.

On the other hand you imply by threat of silliness or QQing that FaP is group-land. I tend to see that differently. In Quick play, there's separate queues, no reason not to set up another IS, where solos can fight in ad-hoc teams over planets as well.

Units would not miss out on a single thing from this option - they still can play over a consistent (well, barring map resets, so that's that) area. No solo PUGer will take their drop slots away. Absolutely easy, no problem, no need to cry for anyone.

yes there is, it's a campaign and has a persistent economy with LP and such. You don't set up two separate campaigns. There's not a single solitary online multiplayer game that does anything remotely like that.

You might have games that have different areas for casual gamers, but not a single solitary game out there with a persistent war like this runs multiple campaigns like that giving one a "casual" campaign and the other a "hardcore" campaign.

If you DO know of one or two, they are the exception.

[oldradagast]

Kjudoon, on 08 December 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Astro... Dont bother. If you arent some scio. nof Mt. Tryhard or Mt. L33t You are a victim.
More accurately you are THEIR victim and they demand you know your role and play your caste as their rightful prey.

Yep. They are idiots. Nothing but endless attempts to claim that anyone who disagrees is " a bad player" or that somehow joining a team and thus getting the "honor" to seal-club others makes it all OK.

Not one of them can even offer a single reason to allow full-on teams to play against PUG's and casuals. It's a stupid, unbalanced, and grossly dull game mode. If this were a professional sporting event with such idiotic and laughable "match-making," it wouldn't last a season before being laughed out of existence. Instead, we get saddled with self-professed "elite" players who think that seal-clubbing is the same as skill in a nearly dead game mode that PGI doesn't dare fix because it might piss off the egotists who spend thousands of dollars trying to buy another win over the course of years.

Whatever... enjoy your dead game mode - you people earned it.

[oldradagast]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

That's because people want to imply that anyone in a premade group is some sort of "hardcore" dedicated group. It's intentional and always has been. It started at the end of closed beta and was quite simply just a propaganda tool for those players still complaining about it today.

Oh, please. Anyone with remote experience in team sports is aware of a few facts:
- Any team that plays together regularly has far better odds of winning than an equal number of randoms tossed together to make a team.
- The simple act of being able to communicate does NOT replace such practice. We get no shortage of whining from seal-clubbing fans about how "PUG's have VoIP, so now things are even." Based on that laughable "logic," giving a bunch of random football fans blue-tooth headsets would somehow make them competitive with a pro team.
- Nobody is complaining about the existence of groups or teams, much less minor teams that aren't pro. This is like the stupid "1% argument" - just as the "real problem" isn't literally the exact top 1% of people in wealth, the real problem here isn't every team or unit in the game. It's just short-hand, and attempting to disprove it via excuses like "well, not every team is pro" is just absurd.

So, again: what justification is there for CW to have full units and teams pitted against random PUG's and casuals? No successful game commits such idiocy in match-making, and even a child knows it's an unbalanced fight... unless, of course, that's the whole point. Gotta get those free, "high-skill" wins somehow...

Edited by oldradagast, 09 December 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

oldradagast, on 09 December 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

So, again: what justification is there for CW to have full units and teams pitted against random PUG's and casuals? No successful game commits such idiocy in match-making, and even a child knows it's an unbalanced fight... unless, of course, that's the whole point. Gotta get those free, "high-skill" wins somehow...

because solos are keeping CW afloat