84 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

Rushin Roulette, on 30 November 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Incidentally, If you still have all statistics available. It would be interresting to see how many CW matches you needed to play to reach rank 6 per faction and what the average damage the teams did you were playing in. Less matches means overall possibility of winning is higher. Higher overall damage from your team means more skilled/communicative/disciplined players in the faction.

Good questions - hope the OP will awnser them.

[RustyBolts]

@vocifer Good points, but how does that impact my kills? Why would I get more kills against an enemy that spread damage better? Also, no coincidence. lol

@ MaxFool Good point. I thin I will go back and pull the win vs loss rates to see if that means anything.

@DakoneAzura. Not really sure what you are talking about. I did not say I hated LRM's and did not call them useless.

@PFC Carsten Agreed and I do think they play a role. I think it would depend on the person and play style to how much of a role. The only time I take an IS XL into CW was in a light.

@Appogee Those were my general observations as well. OH, and you did spend a whole match telling every one I only went for kill shots. lol

@ Ace Selin Thanks for sharing also. My post was not to validate a stance on IS vs Clan in anyway, just me trying to make sense of the results. Also, how is your best match of FRR 2 kills, but your average is 3 kills? Your Davion and Marik best kills are the same as your averages.

@ Mordin Ashe Another good observation that I experienced. It also good and fun to drop with you and against you on several of these matches. <o And you are right, it was a lot of fun. Prior to this I was actually thinking about walking away.

@ Rushin Roulette Sadly I cannot say Liao was the worst. It was Davion. Now, it could have just been timing, I do not know, but WOW. It was different. On the stats, let me go back and crunch some numbers.

Edited by RustyBolts, 30 November 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[Azzgaroth]

Very interesting post RustyBolts!

[vocifer]

RustyBolts, on 30 November 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

@vocifer Good points, but how does that impact my kills? Why would I get more kills against an enemy that spread damage better? Also, no coincidence. lol

You won't get more kills. The kills are limited to 48 as the number of mechs. So if you still win, you pretty much get the same kill number, if you loose, it might be lower by some.

And once again, the kill is just result of your shot being the last for the enemy mech's life. The kill counter depends more on your and your teammates gamestyle(not! skill).

[RustyBolts]

@ Rushin Roulette & Kuritaclan I went back and checked,it looks like I did not capture screen shots of most of the faction stats, just the team stats so I do not know for sure how many games it took for each faction. I can go back and count the victories vs defeats though.

@ vocifer True. Unless someone kills a fresh mech by themselves, the no one can claim absolute victory. They had some help.

Edited by RustyBolts, 30 November 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

vocifer, on 30 November 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

You won't get more kills. The kills are limited to 48 as the number of mechs. So if you still win, you pretty much get the same kill number, if you loose, it might be lower by some.

And once again, the kill is just result of your shot being the last for the enemy mech's life. The kill counter depends more on your and your teammates gamestyle(not! skill).

Well you need to link Kills to win to make it somewhat usefull. If you go more for objectives and your wins are ok, than kill numbers could be low. If the Win Ratio is the same and you get fewer kills your gamestyle argumetn make sense. If Winratio also drop down, than Kills is also linked in a certain way to wins.

[WANTED]

I liked you findings but the statement you made was unnecessary. I played solely Davion since close to launch and I do not see tons of "crybabies" or complainers as much as you experienced. I do not think it's fair to say your small experience is indicative of a whole. Especially since you used so many well calculated facts but then end with such a negative bias statement. Makes me question your entire post validity. Just cause you had such a poor experience during that time with Davion does not mean this is only true of Davion. I'm sorry this was the case but every faction and clan groups have their issues with players.

[RustyBolts]

@ Wanted, I agree, that is why I said it could have been timing. It was a small piece of time, but it was also my worst experience of the tour in comparison to the other factions.

Are there good players and teams in Davion? Yes. Were all the matches crappy? No. But like I said, it was my worst experience of the tour. If I go back, it may be different. It could be another faction.

Edited by RustyBolts, 30 November 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[Grimlox]

I'm just getting back into MWO after being gone for quite a while. I've been pugging as Kurita for the last while and while it hasn't really been toxic we have gotten smashed in 90% of the matches. Also I appreciate you posting your drop deck, seems like laser is the meta right now so I should probably make some changes on my drop deck to better help out the team.

I would be very curious to know your win/loss stats alongside your average kill/death/damage/score stats provided, I think it would provide some more insight. Obviously getting to know a team and getting on voice is my best bet, but just knowing some good mechs to run is helpful. Thanks again.

[Kuritaclan]

Grimlox do not underestimate AC Power on IS side. It more likely depends on the pushing power of your group. If you can give supportiv Fire you also do well with ballistics. And or an SRM/Small Laser combination. In fact the damage is even higher. However since playstyle differ it is easier to get the damage done with high range laser play, but mostly ends in a t'it for t'at, that can swing on both sides.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 30 November 2015 - 05:09 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

What Kuritaclan wrote is true. IS can go with AC builds, mix of AC/5 and AC/2 can go a long way. And kill many, many Mechs... when they get close these builds struggle but for long and medium ranges they work very well. That is why you can see them quite often, though not as often as various Thunderbolts.

Sadly Clans don't have a Mech that can run at 60-65 kmph and boat 3xAC5+AC2 or 2xAC2+2xAC5 and still have some ammo. And even if we did, our ACs are not pinpoint and all would be spray and pray. This one is great advantage on the IS side and frankly I am sad not that many people put it to use. After all, Jagermech is arguably the best dakka dakka experience in MWO and best experiences shouldn't be simply ignored :-)

[-Vompo-]

Many times the skill of the team you drop with has the biggest impact on your own score. With good a good team you usually don't get as high score because you have to share more with your team.

Bad team forces you to do more damage or lose. Great team may destroy the opponents so fast that you have little time to do damage.

[PFC Carsten]

Kuritaclan, on 30 November 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

I can't sign this. There are on both sides Bobs and Pros. Lately an elite founder busted the first wave, cause he stopped his mech in a bottleneck and blocked the push. (played on IS side) Even people who should have experience on mass do play stupid.

You don't have to sign anyhting, don't worry. Neither did I say that each and every clanner is more experienced (note: NOT „better“!) than an IS player.

It's just a matter of averages. On average, clan mechs are much more expensive, meaning F2P people will have to play longer in order to be able afford them. This gives the average person (note the „average“) more chance to learn the game and to get better at it. Of course, not everyone gets better, not everyone plays much, but buys himself a package. But that's true for IS as well.

Some people say, Davion PUGs were the worst of all... might be clue.

[Mordin Ashe]

Hey, perhaps that is why I got discouraged by IS? I went to Davions... In short, it didn't work.

Regarding Clan vs IS players: I really, really need some PGI numbers on this one. Lets say that my hypothesis would be that players who play mostly Clan Mechs or Clans in CW did better on average before Clans were introduced than players who now play IS. It wouldn't be that difficult to approve or disapprove, you can simply compare current stats to historical stats.

I already said that Clan players > all many times, though I've been saying it most last winter when CW got released. CGB or CW pugs were epic, most knew where to stand, where not to stand and how to reposition. Better half also knew how to shoot which kind of helps too. Omnimechs are also kind of foolproof since they push you to laser vomit and even though you can vomit many colours, you are vomiting them still. Hard to do extremely bad build as Clanner.

IS pugs were just sad to watch. Some great players were beating us like we were little kids (and still are) but most are simply feeding our guns. IS CW is like a rollercoaster. Also it doesn't help that IS has very few good CW units. When I join match in CJF there is a solid chance that I withs with someone who is better than me. In IS I would be the top dog... that is simply wrong.

[Kuritaclan]

PFC Carsten, on 01 December 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:

You don't have to sign anyhting, don't worry. Neither did I say that each and every clanner is more experienced (note: NOT „better“!) than an IS player.

It's just a matter of averages. On average, clan mechs are much more expensive, meaning F2P people will have to play longer in order to be able afford them. This gives the average person (note the „average“) more chance to learn the game and to get better at it. Of course, not everyone gets better, not everyone plays much, but buys himself a package. But that's true for IS as well.

I can't estimate how "average" people will concern their approach to cw. I think there are many ways to come to cw. The average player i guess does not jump that fast into cw unless he farmed a decent dropdeck for it. On the other hand maybe new players jump with trials into cw and grind the hard way. But if John Doe does most likely gets beaten up in his first cw match he will return pretty much later, if he just have enough expirence and equipment unless he quit after this experience.

Sure if you start on clan side by itself it means that you have spent most likely more c-bills, which you have to have farmed before that, what should have gave you in theory more experience. But i'm not sure about the experience gain curve and if it is that much more. Because it flattens out pretty quickly on a certain mech with a certain playstyle. Even if you spend more time to get clan mechs you don't own the spectrum of lights mediums, heavys and assaults and their different behavior. That chassis you own and you master "before?" you jump into cw you know how to play but this is pretty much the same knowledge an IS player has with its purchase like a clanner will have. In the end i would say a IS player who owns a set of 4 mechs has actually nearly the same experience as a clanplayer since both are bound to the chassis and the experience curve flatten out quickly. So to speak. The real experience you will achive only comes with different weight classes and loadouts to get an idea how it's meant to be played to their strengths but also weakness.

And what does have nothing to do with purchasing behavior at all is the stratigic and tactical gameplay. That is something you have to work out in mind and can not be bought with c-bills. And oh dear lord many play like they have no mind for this at all. Where to stay, when to move, how the team have to react, and you have to do if they do not do so, so where you need to be to overcome a weakness. This is not really bound on your C-Bill Account. And experience only helps you to survive an encounter longer, not that you have to encoutner it a specific way, because this serve the team best in case, even if you die by it.

Mordin Ashe, on 01 December 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

I already said that Clan players > all many times, though I've been saying it most last winter when CW got released. CGB or CW pugs were epic, most knew where to stand, where not to stand and how to reposition. Better half also knew how to shoot which kind of helps too. Omnimechs are also kind of foolproof since they push you to laser vomit and even though you can vomit many colours, you are vomiting them still. Hard to do extremely bad build as Clanner.

Yeah kind of. as my clip presents on the first page. I run in alone. I mean come on all are standing in front of the gate and someone pull the trigger "me". On clan side you see the follow up anyway - there is no discussion about something that simple. But as could be seen nobody react. Then the majority followed 30 seconds later and 3 still stay left behind. This kind of group behavior i never experienced on clan drops. They do by default a better play on strategic level. - This does not say it is right or wrong what they do but the over all game flow feels very different in puglandistan.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 01 December 2015 - 03:21 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

It's fairly simple in reasoning of why the stats seem to favour IS mechs.

Clan XL engines v I.S XL engines

This more than anything is what causes the most most havoc in the balancing game.

IS mechs have to do more damage to get the kill ( if they shoot at anything other than legs ) which most do because the average mech warrior pilot can't aim well enough to consistently hit legs for the kill.

Higher kill rate is again easily explained.

There are many clan units that are skilled T1 players and take every advantage to win, which is why they are clan.

There are those that are not very good and use the clan xl as a prop for their lack of skill, and tag on to be the 'winners' of CW these are the ones your farming

Edited by Cathy, 01 December 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[Nerdboard]

Interesting. While I am not sure how representable your data is (you use ERLL on Ebon Jaguars, why? x_X ... imho your clan dropdeck is a lot worse than the IS dropdecks) I felt like there could be a general difference in mentality between Clans and IS.

One of the things I noticed is that Pugs get discouraged a lot by seeing names and units they recognize as being good or decent. I recently had a match pugs vs pugs, IS defending on Hellebore Springs. Should have been a win for us in my opinion. However the enemy team had proton. A few on our side recognized him and went 'oh damn, another loss' etc in chat right in the first minute before even engaging. The result was that already in the first wave my team was hiding way behind omega with no way of getting them out there even with repeated (friendly) requests via voice and chat. Needless to say that we lost due to giving the enemy tons of space.

I've seen these kind of things happen a lot. On the clan side however I feel like people are - instead of looking at the enemy - trying to find the "VIPs" in their own team and instead of getting discouraged try to push the morale. Since a lot in this game comes down to momentum and positioning this has made my short Clan pug experience a lot better than my IS adventures.

[multisoul]

do the math:
1. you are standard pug mixed with others like you
2. pugs often have trials and non-upgraded mechs (you dont)
3. trials and non-upgraded mechs: Clans have totally the upper hand, because mechs from their factories are more advanced
4. because of the above in a standard game IS flies are getting squatted faster than Clan flies!
5. during a pug game with Clan on average the Recruits will live longer and this way take away from the damage you could have done. So logically as a regular (or better) IS pilot you get better scores (even with the same performance).

P.S.:
the above is valid for upgaded mechs as well, because its not that easy to make the right decision for your game play about upgrades and clans have less choices

Edited by multisoul, 01 December 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[Wildstreak]

1 - Well as someone who has PUGed both sides, I know that is not true. There seems to be less fighting among members of a Clan PUG that I attribute to more new players playing for IS than Clan. Also in a PUG vs PUG match, it seems to currently favor the Defender more than one Faction.

2 - Probably, never had the time to work this out but I do get IS Mechs sniping me from ranges I expect Clan ERLLs to hit from. I also get IS Mechs shooting me, hearing the laser hit and no damage registers on my paper doll especially when they try to use MLs beyond max range.

3 - I see plenty of Clan use of LRMs. The difference is Clan LRM users tend to spend less time relying on others to hold locks for them, either they use a UAV that someone puts up or the LRM Mech maneuvers into position to get his own locks. Clan LRMs can also be dead fired easier so it is much easier for a Clan unit to hit a non-locked target.

4 - One of the ongoing arguments.

5 - Sometimes. Currently when Clan PUGing, I have seen a few IS PUGs that put up a decent fight for a couple of waves but then something causes a change and loss. Possibly because IS PUGs tend to use their big guns in those first 2 waves then come back later with Mediums and Lights.

6 - Nope.

7 - I think that is partly because IS has more new players for the wrong reasons.

8 - Actually I have seen about half and half from IS PUGs and I get a lot of Counter Attack while Defending in the match.

9 - Dunno, only tried 1 IS so far.

Other things I noted.

10 - IS tends to bring Assaults far more than Clan. Assaults can have value but throwing too many of them into a team means in another wave, your going to be outweighed, outgunned and beaten by the enemy when you have a lot of Lights and Mediums versus heavier Clan Mechs. It is also easier to outmaneuver slower Assaults.

11 - CW has become more like Skirmish with less ability to achieve objectives and the addition of the Cheese Move that can be done on Defense in an Invasion match.

12 - Happens less often than in non-CW matches but still happens:
--- Friendly Fire
--- Corner camping
--- People going to snipe trade when they shouldn't giving the enemy easy kills.

13 - A lot less legging going on especially against Lights.

PFC Carsten, on 30 November 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

- Clanners on average more experienced, thus more able, than IS, because of monetary requirements for own mechs (i.e. you can afford IS mechs earlier than clan mechs).

PFC Carsten, on 01 December 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:

False statement. Just buying the Mech, IS Mechs look cheaper because a number of them come built for 3025 era but once you add the modifications needed, a number of them add up to roughly equal the cost of Clan Mechs.

[Grimlox]

Kuritaclan, on 30 November 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Grimlox do not underestimate AC Power on IS side. It more likely depends on the pushing power of your group. If you can give supportiv Fire you also do well with ballistics. And or an SRM/Small Laser combination. In fact the damage is even higher. However since playstyle differ it is easier to get the damage done with high range laser play, but mostly ends in a t'it for t'at, that can swing on both sides.

I had AC's on several of the mechs I dropped with for IS CW but I don't know if its because I was almost always attacking or what but it seemed like the vast majority of the time we were either snipe trading or charging into a firing line, neitehr of which situations seems to favour AC's. There were a couple times I was able to trade inside of 300m and in those situations the AC's could work but almost always we were down in numbers because of the push to get into that range on the defending clans. Oddly enough I wasn't even attacking but in about 12+ CW matches I was always counter attacking and only once did I get to try an actual defense. Not sure if it was just crap luck or something I don't understand how CW works all that well yet.