84 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

multisoul, on 01 December 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

3. trials and non-upgraded mechs: Clans have totally the upper hand, because mechs from their factories are more advanced

You know that Champion mechs are "designed" voted into the game by the community. So the "advantage" isn't on the clan side. If you are playing a stock timber with "usless and nearly no ammo" in cw that isn't customized it only brings it flesh to the table as a meatshield, while IS Mechs are best suited to their former quirks by the community to make up this gap. And therefore your point isn't valid that much.

Grimlox, on 01 December 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

I had AC's on several of the mechs I dropped with for IS CW but I don't know if its because I was almost always attacking or what but it seemed like the vast majority of the time we were either snipe trading or charging into a firing line, neitehr of which situations seems to favour AC's. There were a couple times I was able to trade inside of 300m and in those situations the AC's could work but almost always we were down in numbers because of the push to get into that range on the defending clans. Oddly enough I wasn't even attacking but in about 12+ CW matches I was always counter attacking and only once did I get to try an actual defense. Not sure if it was just crap luck or something I don't understand how CW works all that well yet.

Well ac expose you to transfer the continuous dps - what translate badly when the rest of your team try to play the peekaboo game. But if for example be in a JM or a Dragon and the Main Thread is brawling Mauler or Battlemaster that is in his SRM Range, than there is a chance that you can do much supportive fire that rip enemies apart. In the end it comes down to the team behavior to make them work. If the team plays passiv you won't get that much out of acs. And 300m are fair to near. AC 5 and 10 which handle this supportive role of stacked are dangerous on 600m+ with full damage included in the optimal range.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 01 December 2015 - 01:23 PM.

[RustyBolts]

Ok, here is an update with the data added for wins vs loss ratios per faction and IS v Clan

......................Win %

Liao………..……..75%

Steiner…………..71%

Kurita……………..57%

Marik……………..25%

Davion……………20%

FRR…………………35%



Wolf………………..67%

Smoke Jaguar….60%

Ghost Bear………58%

Falcon……………..64%



This also might explain why my time with Davion was so bad.
IS------47% win average
Clan---62% win average.

Edited by RustyBolts, 01 December 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Grimlox]

Thanks for sharing the win stats. I think it does help to explain some of what you were seeing. It's interesting to see how huge a spread there was between the IS factions. Clan win rate seemed pretty steady across the factions. Anything you recall that explains the win differential between IS factions? More time spent defending/attacking with one rather than the other? Were the PUGS better organized on one faction or the other or did you get dropped in with groups?

I'm just trying to get into CW now with a couple friends and I find your information/experience helpful.

[RustyBolts]

@ Grimlox With Liao and Steiner, I played with almost all teams. Davion and Marik were exclusively all pug. Kurita and FRR was a combination. This goes back to what I had said about Clans not being OP, but Teamwork was OP. Didn't realize that I had the data to prove my point. lol

For Cans, Wolf and Falcon were all team matches, with Jaguar and Bear being a combination.

The difference with the pugs was what I originally stated. Even Clan pugs communicate in VOIP, but IS pugs mostly just mob around.

Edited by RustyBolts, 01 December 2015 - 04:50 PM.

[Grimlox]

RustyBolts, on 01 December 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

@ Grimlox With Liao and Steiner, I played with almost all teams. Davion and Marik were exclusively all pug. Kurita and FRR was a combination. This goes back to what I had said about Clans not being OP, but Teamwork was OP. Didn't realize that I had the data to prove my point. lol

For Cans, Wolf and Falcon were all team matches, with Jaguar and Bear being a combination.

The deference with the pugs was what I originally stated. Even Clan pugs communicate in VOIP, but IS pugs mostly just mob around.

Which Clan group did you find was the best experience overall for someone that wants to hop onto TS group with some people and drop as a group without much hassle? Stats definitely back up the teamwork > all sentiment, just looking for some advice on the best experience you had from there. Thanks.

[RustyBolts]

Grimlox, I enjoyed my time with all the clan factions. Each one was fun to drop in and were welcoming into their Com Channels.

Wolf and Falcon have more players and more options for attack and defend due to the size of territory they control.

Smoke Jaguar Ghost Bear were a good bunch who worked well together, but does not have as many players or options for defend or attack.

[multisoul]

and all these statements until next patch. For me it is no problem that the game changes, let the devs find the way.

[Wildstreak]

Any Clanner can defend any Clan world attacked by the IS even if not their Faction.

[Veev]

Let me chime in here real quick,

I am a merc. I rotate through every faction and every style of mech.

IS quirks would explain a lot. IS oftentimes got stacking quirks that gave a significant advantage in DPS.

Take the BLR-3s prior to re-balance they were sitting at a 20% C/D buff on Medium Pulse lasers. 20% buff on range and a 12.5% reduction in heat.

That means that the Medium Pulse's on the 3s packed 2.004 DPS vs clans 2.08, which is not bad, until you start considering heat values. Clan Mpulse get 1.33 Damage per heat while the 3S was getting 1.6875. You can only cram so many heat sinks onto a Mech before you run out of space. Even with the Clan efficiency and size taken into account, the 3s offered better heat management.

Not sure if the numbers have changed or not, but http://mwowiki.weebl...k-upgrades.html

Seems to paint the picture that the only difference with the Clan and IS heat sinks was the number of slots one required over the other one. This means that Clan sinks took less room, but cooled the exact same. Tonnage restrictions in place and forced upgrades that are locked all contribute to choking off what you can and cannot do with the build. This is a built in limiting factor to the IS mechs vs Clan mechs. Sort of self balancing since IS mechs tend to run cooler on the DPH side of things.

But back to my comparison, at the end of the day the IS mech was doing almost the same DPS while being 26% more heat efficient. The range values were low enough to not worry about the discrepancy. AKA I am being lazy, but if you are desperate to calc it out 3S quirked pulled 264 and the Clan was 330.

But to further make a mess of things, I think Smurfy already updated his values and I am too lazy to look it up. Needless to say the IS quirks made running mechs with certain systems more powerful if built and used right. You will not get a good comparison on things until the IIC mechs come out and you have as much customization available for the clans as you do for the IS. Then you can build mechs and run them head to head for a real comparison on IS vs Clan with quirks in place/ tech changes.

[Lily from animove]

many variables with in this, But honestly, i think amongst clan wolf you will probably have more good players and better organsied groups you meet. Those tend to cut off your damage due to having to share it with other good pilots.

Surely Xl engines on IS side mean mechs pop faster, yet the othr way around mechs with STD engine mean more to destroy. And XL's only pop fats when put into the wrong mechs and pilot skill is to low to properly twist damage. And twisting damage vs clanners with longer beam durations and steam AC's is even more easy. So I would not let the "XL dies faster" count in here. IS noobs die faster, thats true.

have you made screens form these matches? it would be interestign to see how your opponents and teammates did as well.

often your own scores are better when your opponents and teammates are less skilled. becuse skilled teammates basically hutn your pray down faster allowing you to perform less good.

Also interesting would have been, if you have the data, how good you did with each faction vs specific other factions. So like Steiner vs wold, Steiner vs Falcon ....

my own observeation is, clanside has generally better players on the average, not related to the mech balance. That may be caused also by mor enewbies in IS mechs due to clanmechs higher prices. Which means more long time experienced players are on the clansides. You "IS impressions" reflect this, since alot of these crys come from just not knowing the game well and it's mehanics.

IS cries for balance because they can not play the game properly, except a few good units. And god prevent that those clanplayers ever switch to the IS side and use these new "rebalanced" toys. because then it will reveal how unbalanced the "rebalance" truly is.

Ace Selin, on 30 November 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

Ive played all factions too and here are my findings after playing 50 matches for each faction:

Best games.

IS…….…….…….Score…Kills……Assist…Damage
Liao………………...249…….5……....23………1457
Steiner……………234 ……5.......…..17………1122
Kurita……………..325…….4….……19.…….…1204
Marik……………..284…….3….……21….….…1303
Davion……………267…....4….……25…....…1402
Rasalhague…….229….….2…………26………1282

Clans…….….......….Score…Kills……Assist…Damage
Wolf……………….....562…….11………33…….2792
Smoke Jaguar.....…527……..14…..….32……..3054
Ghost Bear…...…...702………8……….29……..3202
Falcon…………...…456……..10………32…….2994

Averages

IS Factions……..Score…………….Kills……………….Assist……………Damage
Liao…………………192………………..2…………………..11………………..1132
Steiner……………202………………..3……………………09………………..992
Kurita……………..187………………..2……………………12………………..911
Marik……………..156………………..3……………………11………………..1021
Davion……………204………………..4……………………12………………..1100
Rasalhague…….228………….……..3……………………10…………………1045

Clan Factions.....Score……….…….Kills………………..Assist……………Damage
Wolf……………….340…………..….8 …………….………22……………..1699
Smoke Jaguar…..422……………….8…………………….19……………..2055
[Ghost Bear……..399………….……5…………………….18…….………..2146
Falcon……………450………………6…………………….19……………...1742

As can bee seen in my experience Clan mechs do more damage and get far more kills, yet im far more experienced in the use of my IS mechs and 2 of the 4 Clan mechs used in CW were trials too.

So my anecdotal experience trumps the OPS anecdotal experience.

Well tbh, this shows you play the IS mechs very bad. look at your IS damage divide this by 4 mechs, that is just bad, with aroudn 250dmg per mech. One if the big issues with IS mechs is that their free construction rules allow to screw up a mech more than most clan mechs can be screwed up.

@Mordin yes your observations very accurately hit the reality, at leats with what I experienced as well. Something many IS player don't want to see. But the issue is less their mechs, and more their playerbase. I wonder if this is related to clanlore, which are more social in their background and less random retarted hostile by bombing evertyhing to sh1t mentality that most IS backgroudn offers. This may naturally attract more people of similar more grouporiented and "family-clan" like organsied mindset. Thats maybe why clan units work better and organise more efficiently. Which heavily influences the outcome. Playing with GCGB (not CW) and CWI (in CW and outside) were great times. Everything is kinda relaxed and not very stressy, yet highly organised and a loss doesn't ends in drama instead in some analytical discussion to "how improve this next time".

Wildstreak, on 01 December 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

False statement. Just buying the Mech, IS Mechs look cheaper because a number of them come built for 3025 era but once you add the modifications needed, a number of them add up to roughly equal the cost of Clan Mechs.

While this is true, I doubt that the newbies able to buy their first mech do know this. And because of this most will end up with a bad first buyers choice.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 December 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Commander A9]

This is what I'm talking about!

No matter what PGI does, Clan pilots will still come out on top!

[RustyBolts]

@Wildstreak Most IS Pugs refuse to accept this. I have argued to the point of muting people because they would refuse to accept that 12 Wolves were not automatically a 12 Man team.

@Veev I have to admit, that the quirks on some of the mechs were amazing. I was also amazed at the amount of builds out there from the IS that failed to take advantage of any of the quirks. Like loading up LRMS on a BLR-1s for Boreal Vault instead of ERLL.

@ Lilly, I did take screen shots of each match. It would take a long time to run the data for this answer,

Quote

it would be interestign to see how your opponents and teammates did as well.

I could go back and just check my best matches and see the answer.

Quote

Also interesting would have been, if you have the data, how good you did with each faction vs specific other factions. So like Steiner vs wold, Steiner vs Falcon ....

Same as above, this might take forever. lol Let me see how I can address this one.

[Veev]

RustyBolts, on 02 December 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

@Wildstreak Most IS Pugs refuse to accept this. I have argued to the point of muting people because they would refuse to accept that 12 Wolves were not automatically a 12 Man team.

@Veev I have to admit, that the quirks on some of the mechs were amazing. I was also amazed at the amount of builds out there from the IS that failed to take advantage of any of the quirks. Like loading up LRMS on a BLR-1s for Boreal Vault instead of ERLL.

@ Lilly, I did take screen shots of each match. It would take a long time to run the data for this answer,
I could go back and just check my best matches and see the answer.


Same as above, this might take forever. lol Let me see how I can address this one.

It probably explains why that one guy does so well in Clan vs IS, he does not know how to build mechs...

[Anjian]

My observation about IS pugs is that their bad behavior is self reinforcing. There are many good players in the IS side, but after the disgust they feel with their teammates, gave up and moved to the Clan side. That set the boulder rolling, and helps explain the map situation you see today.

[LordNothing]

im kind of half way through my faction tour. after getting pretty far up the steiner skill tree i decided i needed mech bays and began a tour of the clans, recently getting back to the is as frr. so far the best factions have been wolf, followed closely by falcon (i believe the reason for this is called mechwarrior 2). frr is definately better than steiner. still got davion, marik, liao, and kurita to go. if i have the chance to switch to wolf before tukayyid i will.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 December 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[GI Journalist]

Clan Mechs can survive more damage than Inner Sphere Mechs, particularly in the case of XL engines. Therefore, on average, Inner Sphere mechs will have more opportunities to do damage to Clan Mechs and score higher.

Conversely, Inner Sphere Mechs will die after receiving less damage, giving the Clans fewer opportunities to do damage overall and resulting in a lower score on average.

[Kuritaclan]

GI Journalist, on 02 December 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

Clan Mechs can survive more damage than Inner Sphere Mechs, particularly in the case of XL engines. Therefore, on average, Inner Sphere mechs will have more opportunities to do damage to Clan Mechs and score higher.

Conversely, Inner Sphere Mechs will die after receiving less damage, giving the Clans fewer opportunities to do damage overall and resulting in a lower score on average.

Conversely, since you claim that an Inner Sphere Mech dying faster should also result in less damage made, having lesser opportunities to do damage over all and resulting in a lower score on average.

While Clan Mechs stand up longer particularly in the case of XL engines what therefore, on average, should give them a longer time in battle what in the end translate to more damage made.

So what to take from this. I can't say but the argument does not stand ground either way since it is self contradictionary.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 December 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[Wildstreak]

RustyBolts, on 02 December 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

@Wildstreak Most IS Pugs refuse to accept this. I have argued to the point of muting people because they would refuse to accept that 12 Wolves were not automatically a 12 Man team.

I actually had a couple of times I had to tell a JF PUG this too.

[Jun Watarase]

Almost nobody runs IS XLs in CW so comparing survivability based on that is pretty moot...

[Mordin Ashe]

I don't get the survivability argument. Clans run mostly laser vomits and for laser vomits, even on IS side, STD engines are a better choice because of space required for DHSs. Clan and IS laser boats have the same survivability... scratch those few fools who must boats 30t of weaponry on 60t Mech.