84 replies to this topic

[demoyn]

RustyBolts, on 30 November 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

@ Wanted, I agree, that is why I said it could have been timing. It was a small piece of time, but it was also my worst experience of the tour in comparison to the other factions.

Are there good players and teams in Davion? Yes. Were all the matches crappy? No. But like I said, it was my worst experience of the tour. If I go back, it may be different. It could be another faction.

It wasn't timing. I've been telling everyone for a year and a half that Davion is the worst faction. In fact, for about a month I kept track of which team had more Davion players, and about 83% of the time the team with more Davion players lost. It was pretty hilarious, honestly.

This is no coincidence. Two things make this a reality: Davion is featured as the "hero" in most of the lore, and Davion is also the first faction listed on the Faction screen. This creates an atmosphere where the faction is populated predominately by roleplayers (traditionally less skilled than hardcore gamers) and newbies that just pick the first option.

Edited by demoyn, 03 December 2015 - 01:27 AM.

[Lily from animove]

demoyn, on 03 December 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

It wasn't timing. I've been telling everyone for a year and a half that Davion is the worst faction. In fact, for about a month I kept track of which team had more Davion players, and about 83% of the time the team with more Davion players lost. It was pretty hilarious, honestly.

This is no coincidence. Two things make this a reality: Davion is featured as the "hero" in most of the lore, and Davion is also the first faction listed on the Faction screen. This creates an atmosphere where the faction is populated predominately by roleplayers (traditionally less skilled than hardcore gamers) and newbies that just pick the first option.

Notso sure, to be a roleplayer you would know some lore. nd by this roleplay =/= Davian. Yet maybe the "hero" in the davion lore attracst those "rambos" one man mentality players which then of course starts to fail when teamplay matters.

[RustyBolts]

Lilly, Here is some of what you asked about.

Best Match vs Faction/Team
Criteria, if the match had more than 4 members from the same team, I included it. I also only included the matches where I got the highest kill counts or most damage. In some cases, it was the same match.


Liao(14 Kills, 16 assist, 1816 damage)……12 IS pugs vs 12 Wolf Pugs.
Liao(9 kills, 14 assist, 2057damage).....12 IS Pugs vs 12 Wolf(one 4 man team)

Steiner(7 kills, 33 assist, 2451 damage)…12 man Steiner Team vs 12 Clan Pugs.

Kurita(12Kills, 13 assist, 2562 damage)…..12 IS pug vs 12 Smoke Jag pugs.

Marik(11 kills, 25 assist, 2422 damage)…..12 IS pugs vs 12 Wolf pugs (one 5 man team)

Davion(9 kills, 26 assist, 2010 damage)…..12 IS pug vs 12 Jade Falcon Pug.
Davion(6 kills, 22 assist, 2083 damage)…..12 IS pug vs 12 Jade Falcon Pug.

Rasalhague(10 kills, 26 assist, 2057 damage)….12 IS pugs vs 12 Wolf (one 5 man team)

Wolf(7 kills, 24 assist, 1449 Damage)……...12 Clan Pug vs 12 IS pug.

Smoke Jag(9 kills, 21 assist, 2442 Damage)……12 Clan Pug vs 12 Steiner pugs.

Ghost Bear(8 kills, 29 assist, 2176 damage)…..12 Clan Pugs vs 12 IS FRR(one 4 man team)

Falcon(12 kills, 16 assist 1739 damage)……..12 Falcon (One 4 Man) vs 12 IS Pugs

None of my "best matches" were against a team of more than 5 people, and two of my best matches was when I was on a team of more than 4.

Edited by RustyBolts, 03 December 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[Archie4Strings]

First of all:
Very nice work and thanks a lot for sharing!
If all this is true and the amount of games were enough to prove reliable statistics, the conclusion is:

That there are far more low skilled (Pug) players without any positive team attitude among the IS? Also there will be a lot of exceptions, dont wanna blame the IS in general!

Could that be, because the Clanmechs are much more expensive? I mean, as a casual player or as a beginner with not many C-Bills or neither MCs, i maybe buy the Jägermech or the Battlemaster first, instead of a warhawk or a hellbringer right?
The costs for Endosteel, DHS and the need to buy 3 different variants without selling probably one to have the full range of a chassis (you can sell 2 of 3 omnis and just keep the omnipods) makes the IS-Mechs almost as expensive as the Clanmechs are, but not on first sight!

So... just a shot in the dark:

Can the solution to all this problems, instead of quirking IS Mechs more and more, maybe be to reduce the costs of the Omnimechs??

Edited by Archie4Strings, 04 December 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[ChewBaka]

Archie4Strings, on 04 December 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Can the solution to all this problems, instead of quirking IS Mechs more and more, maybe be to reduce the costs of the Omnimechs??

Omnimechs aren't actually as expensive as you might think. Its just a higher initial cost, but once you include the cost of ES, DHS, and a XL engine to bring the IS mech up to par it almost works out to be about the same.

Engines, however, are a reusable one-time cost in QP but not for CW. Besides, XL isn't always ideal depending on the chassis.

[vandalhooch]

Jun Watarase, on 02 December 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

Almost nobody runs IS XLs in CW so comparing survivability based on that is pretty moot...

We'll add this to the pile of "dumb things 'they' say" without attributing it directly to you. Ok?

Mordin Ashe, on 02 December 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

I don't get the survivability argument. Clans run mostly laser vomits and for laser vomits, even on IS side, STD engines are a better choice because of space required for DHSs. Clan and IS laser boats have the same survivability... scratch those few fools who must boats 30t of weaponry on 60t Mech.

See, this is why I didn't need to credit Jun exclusively. It really is a dumb thing "they" say.

[Ssamout]

Jun Watarase, on 02 December 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

Almost nobody runs IS XLs in CW so comparing survivability based on that is pretty moot...

Totally untrue. Running without speed handicaps just too much, only few mechs are better with STD.

[demoyn]

Ssamout, on 04 December 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

Totally untrue. Running without speed handicaps just too much, only few mechs are better with STD.

I think it's probably a little closer to 50/50, but yeah... I was laughing at those comments too. People wonder why Inner Sphere sucks so much in CW... then you read that crap.

Edited by demoyn, 04 December 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Husker Dude]

Archie4Strings, on 04 December 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Could that be, because the Clanmechs are much more expensive? I mean, as a casual player or as a beginner with not many C-Bills or neither MCs, i maybe buy the Jägermech or the Battlemaster first, instead of a warhawk or a hellbringer right?
The costs for Endosteel, DHS and the need to buy 3 different variants without selling probably one to have the full range of a chassis (you can sell 2 of 3 omnis and just keep the omnipods) makes the IS-Mechs almost as expensive as the Clanmechs are, but not on first sight!

So... just a shot in the dark:

Can the solution to all this problems, instead of quirking IS Mechs more and more, maybe be to reduce the costs of the Omnimechs??

I actually wonder how many players, new to the game and just experimenting with CW, are actually choosing their faction based on what mechs they own. I kind of have the impression that may just take trial mechs, and some even don't even realize immediately that they can't take any mech into either side when playing CW (someone a couple of months ago on a drop was confused as to why he couldn't select his Timber Wolf).

[Leiska]

Veev, on 02 December 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

It probably explains why that one guy does so well in Clan vs IS, he does not know how to build mechs...

I think he pulled the numbers out of his ***. Not only is his performance gap too great to be real, his best matches apparently produce fewer than average kills. In my experience IS will produce more high scoring games but they only happen when the game is even or you are losing slightly. If you are winning, your team is killing off enemies too fast for you to rack up the damage. Getting stomped too hard will also limit your ability to score damage because your meat shields fall too fast, which leads to you getting pushed.

Kuritaclan, on 02 December 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Conversely, since you claim that an Inner Sphere Mech dying faster should also result in less damage made, having lesser opportunities to do damage over all and resulting in a lower score on average.

While Clan Mechs stand up longer particularly in the case of XL engines what therefore, on average, should give them a longer time in battle what in the end translate to more damage made.

So what to take from this. I can't say but the argument does not stand ground either way since it is self contradictionary.

It only seems contradictory because your logic is flawed. If a Clan mech survives longer with an XL engine, he doesn't necessarily get to deal more damage because of it. He might win and run out of enemies to kill entirely, or his lower DPS might require longer survival just to reach the same total damage as his IS counterpart.

Edited by Leiska, 04 December 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Leiska, on 04 December 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

It only seems contradictory because your logic is flawed. If a Clan mech survives longer with an XL engine, he doesn't necessarily get to deal more damage because of it. He might win and run out of enemies to kill entirely, or his lower DPS might require longer survival just to reach the same total damage as his IS counterpart.

IF only.

You don't understand so you do not get the point.

[Zibmo]

RustyBolts, on 29 November 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I have a tailored drop deck for each map whether it is defend or attack. But mostly for IS it was:

Attack--TDR-5SS (65) (7MPL), TDR-5S-T(65)(8ML),HBK-4P(50)(9ML), BJ-1X(45)(8ML)=225 Tons
Defend--BLR-1S (85) (4ERLL), TDR-5S(65) (4LL), TDR-5SS (65) (7MPL), PNT-10K (35) (2ERPPC)=250 Tons

For mostly Clan it was:

Attack--EBJ-Prime (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), EBJ-B (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), HBR-Prime(65) (Gauss 4ML) ACH-Prime(30)(6SPL)=225
Defend--EBJ-Prime (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), EBJ-B (65)(2ERLL, 5ML), HBR-Prime(65) (Gauss 4ML) ACH-C (30)(4 MPL)=225

So, you had an entire dropdeck for IS which consisted of ~mostly~ the overquirked mechs from IS while running a combination of lower quality mechs on Clan. EBJ is a fine mech. It's not TBR fine, but it's fine. HBR is also fine. Not TBR fine, or even SCR fine, but fine.

Thunderbolts are overquirked.

From those results, you can't quite make a decision other than IS pilots exhibit more idiocy than Clan pugs. I never knew my IQ grew so much when I dropped in Clan. I'll have to remember that.

[Mordin Ashe]

EBJ>>>TBR if you know how to build it... HBR also has many advantages against TBR so situationally it is much better Mech. Neither of these Mechs is subpar in any way. Perhaps you lack understanding of Clan Mechs, Zibmo?

EDIT: What is the point of calling IS Mechs overquirked when theirquirks are staying? Those Mechs are very common on battlefields. Taking anything else would compromise RustyBolt's data.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 05 December 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Zibmo]

Mordin Ashe, on 05 December 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

EBJ>>>TBR if you know how to build it... HBR also has many advantages against TBR so situationally it is much better Mech. Neither of these Mechs is subpar in any way. Perhaps you lack understanding of Clan Mechs, Zibmo?

EDIT: What is the point of calling IS Mechs overquirked when theirquirks are staying? Those Mechs are very common on battlefields. Taking anything else would compromise RustyBolt's data.

If it makes you feel better, sure. Perhaps I'm just an IS player in a Clanner's skin. Because my EBJ in no meaningful way better than my TBR unless the entire premise is "EBJ is lighter and has a lower profile". From survivability onward, TBR is better. The scariest mechs on the battlefield are, and remain, the whale and the TBR.

Or are you trying to make the case that the dropdecks were even?

I await the "Panther is just as good as the Cheetah" argument as well.

Edited by Zibmo, 05 December 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[demoyn]

Zibmo, on 05 December 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I await the "Panther is just as good as the Cheetah" argument as well.

No, Panthers aren't just as good as the Arctic Cheetah. I'm not really sure after Tuesday, but before that the Firestarter and Raven were just as good. Maybe if you spent a little less time crying on the message board and a little more time in game practicing you'd understand what every skilled player in this game is saying.

[Lily from animove]

RustyBolts, on 03 December 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Lilly, Here is some of what you asked about.

Best Match vs Faction/Team
Criteria, if the match had more than 4 members from the same team, I included it. I also only included the matches where I got the highest kill counts or most damage. In some cases, it was the same match.


Liao(14 Kills, 16 assist, 1816 damage)……12 IS pugs vs 12 Wolf Pugs.
Liao(9 kills, 14 assist, 2057damage).....12 IS Pugs vs 12 Wolf(one 4 man team)

Steiner(7 kills, 33 assist, 2451 damage)…12 man Steiner Team vs 12 Clan Pugs.

Kurita(12Kills, 13 assist, 2562 damage)…..12 IS pug vs 12 Smoke Jag pugs.

Marik(11 kills, 25 assist, 2422 damage)…..12 IS pugs vs 12 Wolf pugs (one 5 man team)

Davion(9 kills, 26 assist, 2010 damage)…..12 IS pug vs 12 Jade Falcon Pug.
Davion(6 kills, 22 assist, 2083 damage)…..12 IS pug vs 12 Jade Falcon Pug.

Rasalhague(10 kills, 26 assist, 2057 damage)….12 IS pugs vs 12 Wolf (one 5 man team)

Wolf(7 kills, 24 assist, 1449 Damage)……...12 Clan Pug vs 12 IS pug.

Smoke Jag(9 kills, 21 assist, 2442 Damage)……12 Clan Pug vs 12 Steiner pugs.

Ghost Bear(8 kills, 29 assist, 2176 damage)…..12 Clan Pugs vs 12 IS FRR(one 4 man team)

Falcon(12 kills, 16 assist 1739 damage)……..12 Falcon (One 4 Man) vs 12 IS Pugs

None of my "best matches" were against a team of more than 5 people, and two of my best matches was when I was on a team of more than 4.

cna you make this, if not too much effort, from your worst matches?

See mostlikely, ad thats my experience, you will score the best when there are less skilled palyers around you. because other good palyers around in yout "steal" your kills and damage. And good players in the opponent team efficiently jut kill you and your teammates faster. The ideal situation is when people without aim shoot at each other and have such a low perception that you can rip them apart form a position no one pays attention to. In equally skilled situatiosn stuff equals out a lot more.

Archie4Strings, on 04 December 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

First of all:
Very nice work and thanks a lot for sharing!
If all this is true and the amount of games were enough to prove reliable statistics, the conclusion is:

That there are far more low skilled (Pug) players without any positive team attitude among the IS? Also there will be a lot of exceptions, dont wanna blame the IS in general!

Could that be, because the Clanmechs are much more expensive? I mean, as a casual player or as a beginner with not many C-Bills or neither MCs, i maybe buy the Jägermech or the Battlemaster first, instead of a warhawk or a hellbringer right?
The costs for Endosteel, DHS and the need to buy 3 different variants without selling probably one to have the full range of a chassis (you can sell 2 of 3 omnis and just keep the omnipods) makes the IS-Mechs almost as expensive as the Clanmechs are, but not on first sight!

This, I think it has a lot to do with exactly this. real newbies don't know what and why they do things they do just what theit first thought is. I had another account first, close to the end of my cadet bonus and didn't knew what to buy, wtche dpeoples performance and decided to buy a kintaro. DERP, but mine was slower and just bad. That was tne moment I started to go to the forum reading about MWO and its mechbuilding mechanics. Because it differs quite from MW3 and 4, especially in having to rebuy an entire engine. In the end the result was dammit, I need a few more millions to make this mech viable. And with my noobish skills at these days the estimated matches I would have needed would have been an unbearable pain in that mech.
The easierst way wa to make a new account and making a better choice with the cadet bonus. But I doubt many newbies screwing an accoutn up like this would do so.

We have yet no proper tutorial for mechbuilding and what it's details mean, so newbis will make bad choices that thy can not undo without a big grind of money.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 December 2015 - 04:05 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Zibmo, on 05 December 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

If it makes you feel better, sure. Perhaps I'm just an IS player in a Clanner's skin. Because my EBJ in no meaningful way better than my TBR unless the entire premise is "EBJ is lighter and has a lower profile". From survivability onward, TBR is better. The scariest mechs on the battlefield are, and remain, the whale and the TBR.

Or are you trying to make the case that the dropdecks were even?

I await the "Panther is just as good as the Cheetah" argument as well.

You said it yourself yet you still are blind to is. DropDECK. Deck is the key word. Timby has survivability but can't boat some of the best builds Clans have (8xCERMPL). While Timby has more armor, you can take 2 of them at max without making your drop deck suck. Taking Timby means at least one of your Mechs suck and Timby isn't so good to make up for that one Mech that sucks. That is why EBJ and SCR is better combo than Timby and SCRs. Better overall performance.

EBJ has better profile which can't be simply ignored. On many maps IS has the advantage of ERLL sniping and lower profile can in many situations mean that you don't get your haircut.

Panther is completely diffirent Mech than ACH and that you expect this statement only shows your lack of understanding. Firestarter is closest to ACH, Clans have nothing like Panther.

[Lily from animove]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 December 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

You said it yourself yet you still are blind to is. DropDECK. Deck is the key word. Timby has survivability but can't boat some of the best builds Clans have (8xCERMPL). While Timby has more armor, you can take 2 of them at max without making your drop deck suck. Taking Timby means at least one of your Mechs suck and Timby isn't so good to make up for that one Mech that sucks. That is why EBJ and SCR is better combo than Timby and SCRs. Better overall performance.

EBJ has better profile which can't be simply ignored. On many maps IS has the advantage of ERLL sniping and lower profile can in many situations mean that you don't get your haircut.

Panther is completely diffirent Mech than ACH and that you expect this statement only shows your lack of understanding. Firestarter is closest to ACH, Clans have nothing like Panther.

LOL?

you can take 2 TBR's 1 SCR and a ACH, how is that a sucking dropdeck? It's actually quite metametametameta but yes ou won't field something of equal tonnage across the deck. And EBJ profile, stop talking about this. Half of the playerbase does not know how to properly use high hardpoints to their advantage no matter how often you tell them. They play their mechs like old wild west duels.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 December 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Zibmo]

demoyn, on 05 December 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

No, Panthers aren't just as good as the Arctic Cheetah. I'm not really sure after Tuesday, but before that the Firestarter and Raven were just as good. Maybe if you spent a little less time crying on the message board and a little more time in game practicing you'd understand what every skilled player in this game is saying.

Ah, the insult. I play fine, thanks. The Firestarter and Raven were NOT just as good. The RAVEN? Really?

[RustyBolts]

@Lilly, I am out of town this week but when I get back I will go back through the data for my worst matches and see what I come up with.

As far as my mech choices. I stated earlier that each map and each game mode has a mech tailored for it. So I do not drop with the same four mechs each time. The ones listed where the mechs I used the most but not exclusively.

And as far as the panther v firestarter, I actually use the panther more. I like the 2 ERPPC build on Boreal Vault and Hellborne Springs more than the SPL Firestarter.

Edited by RustyBolts, 06 December 2015 - 02:05 PM.