54 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Something dawned on me

The Firestarter and the Jenner were really the only mechs NOT given either of these.

Now I look at just about every other light medium and assault and literally almost Every Mech (read Not All) and every chassis has either an armor, structure or both buff. Yet the Jenner and the Firestarter are the only two chassis that are completely un-bufffed (Except the Oxide (P2W?))

This just completely baffles me, while I agree the firestarter is a tough ass mech, the Jenner, arguably has the worst hit boxes in the game, and it does not matter how many times you "tweak" them that WILL NEVER change, due to the build of the Jenner, It's just all torso, so no amount of hit boxes iterations will change how easy it is to get hit and eventually explode.

So my question is, why are these the only 2 mechs that received no such buffs, and the Jenner received the worst of all the new quirks of all the lights. The firestarter yeah I can kinda understand but still. I do not think it can be argured that the Jenner is a Tier 1 light anymore. I personally would drop it to a 3 but thats just me

I am just curious why these two chassis were left out of the structure and armor buffing. I just don't get it.

Yes we all know I am a huge jenner Proponent, but these new quirks just baffle the crap out of me, they really do.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 28 November 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[adamts01]

The Jenner never got quirks because it was the original tier 1 light. It's getting hitbox attention after all this time to make it playable, to popularize it to sell more origin Jenners. Maybe not straight up armor quirks because that would be too obvious. There was just no money in fixing it before.

[Pjwned]

The answer is that PGI has done a piss poor job adjusting quirks and the mech re-balancing is barely going to accomplish anything in that regard. Instead of significantly toning down the power creep with quirks and looking at other ways to make overall balance better, quirks are instead just shifted around and some of the most insanely out of line quirks were toned down, and that's it.

Edited by Pjwned, 28 November 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jenner is a head scratcher (though to be fair, look how long it's taken them to acknowledge the Shadowhawk and Victor...and even then only just) but the FS9 simply does not NEED armor/Structure buffs. It's a bloody tough robot, only overshadowed by the ACH. And that's more a matter of ACH needing nerf than FS9 (the preeminent Light before the ACH was introduced) needing buffed.

Jenner? The Oxide buffs should be across the board.

Guess I'll bug Russ about it on Twitter.... perhaps it's another oversight?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 November 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Deathlike]

Jenner OP?

Remember that our balance overlord should check his telemetry and should be seeing Firestarters being #1 IS Light in use...

So, I guess the telemetry is wrong or broken.

[FupDup]

The Jenner was once the king of the light class, and PGI seems to hesitate when it comes to improving mechs that were once "the meta," even if that meta took place several years ago.

The Shadow Hawk, Cataphract, Catapult, Victor, and Highlander are in a similar situation.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 28 November 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Jenner OP?

Remember that our balance overlord should check his telemetry and should be seeing Firestarters being #1 IS Light in use...

So, I guess the telemetry is wrong or broken.

Or they are interpreting their telemetry incorrectly.

Remember, folks, just because a party says they "have data" doesn't mean they know what to do with it or that it was even collected under the right methodology.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Or they are interpreting their telemetry incorrectly.

Remember, folks, just because a party says they "have data" doesn't mean they know what to do with it or that it was even collected under the right methodology.

Sort of like why they felt compelled to nerf the AC/2: Once upon a time it put out huge DPS on paper, but PGI ignored all of the weapon's opportunity costs that it paid to get that DPS. Thus, it has been nerfed on at least 4-5 separate patches.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Sort of like why they felt compelled to nerf the AC/2: Once upon a time it put out huge DPS on paper, but PGI ignored all of the weapon's opportunity costs that it paid to get that DPS. Thus, it has been nerfed on at least 4-5 separate patches.

Or how about those OP machine guns?

Or how about how damage per ton of ammo being more or less homogenized without considering the quality of the damage (spread for 2-class and LB-X-class)?

Yeah, data!

[Mister Blastman]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

The Jenner was once the king of the light class, and PGI seems to hesitate when it comes to improving mechs that were once "the meta," even if that meta took place several years ago.

The Shadow Hawk, Cataphract, Catapult, Victor, and Highlander are in a similar situation.

They don't play their own game--that's the real problem. Otherwise they'd know what is broken and what is not.

[Y E O N N E]

Mister Blastman, on 28 November 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

They don't play their own game--that's the real problem. Otherwise they'd know what is broken and what is not.

Or they do play it but not on a level that can give an accurate impression of the chassis performance.

Russ recently said the Dragon's new hit-boxes feel good. He's right, it's now a champion at spreading damage. Unfortunately, its arms and sides are now incredibly fragile, rendering XLs extremely risky (you'd be safer taking an XL Awesome) and making you lose your guns lightning quick. Against people who know how to shoot, it's trivial to just wait for the Dragon to look the other way and then fire on the side of its snout and watch that ST pop off.

It's a very similar story for the Catapult.

[Mister Blastman]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Or they do play it but not on a level that can give an accurate impression of the chassis performance.

Russ recently said the Dragon's new hit-boxes feel good. He's right, it's now a champion at spreading damage. Unfortunately, its arms and sides are now incredibly fragile, rendering XLs extremely risky (you'd be safer taking an XL Awesome) and making you lose your guns lightning quick. Against people who know how to shoot, it's trivial to just wait for the Dragon to look the other way and then fire on the side of its snout and watch that ST pop off.

It's a very similar story for the Catapult.

Yeah they ruined both 'mechs. They're dead. Instead they should have shrank the dragon or put hitbox holes in it like they've done newer chassis to increase their durability.

[Grey Ghost]

The latest hitbox change made it a walking side torso which was way worse. Hopefully the Dec. 1st patch turns it back into more of a walking center torso... man, what an odd thing to be hopeful for.

Even with structure buffs It's quirks are awful compared to Firestarters. One major problem I had with Jenners was heat, which neither the D or F get any help with. They actually get quirks that help them run even hotter.

The Oxide structure buffs should definitely be on all the variants. Though I'd rather they be...

• CT: +16
  
• L/R T: +8
  
• L/R A: +10
  
• L/R L: +16

I'm not sure it would be viable otherwise.

[PurpleNinja]

Quirks are based on a mech unwritten tier, so anything goes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 November 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Or they are interpreting their telemetry incorrectly.

Remember, folks, just because a party says they "have data" doesn't mean they know what to do with it or that it was even collected under the right methodology.

Of course....conversely, doesn't mean those without the data are any better at interpreting it.........

Grey Ghost, on 28 November 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

The latest hitbox change made it a walking side torso which was way worse. Hopefully the Dec. 1st patch turns it back into more of a walking center torso... man, what an odd thing to be hopeful for.

Even with structure buffs It's quirks are awful compared to Firestarters. One major problem I had with Jenners was heat, which neither the D or F get any help with. They actually get quirks that help them run even hotter.

The Oxide structure buffs should definitely be on all the variants. Though I'd rather they be...

• CT: +16
  
• L/R T: +8
  
• L/R A: +10
  
• L/R L: +16

I'm not sure it would be viable otherwise.

don't see much need for the arms, tbh, they catch little fire. Legs around 12, the rest, yeah, though making it armor would be preferable.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Of course....conversely, doesn't mean those without the data are any better at interpreting it.........

Unfortunately, we can't know because they won't share, and even then that's irrelevant since the game is solely in PGI's hands.

Assuming PTS4 is more or less representative of their "big" rebalance, I think I'll take my chances erring on the side of "PGI doesn't know how to data." Whether or not any of us can do it better will remain a mystery.

[TLBFestus]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Jenner is a head scratcher (though to be fair, look how long it's taken them to acknowledge the Shadowhawk and Victor...and even then only just) but the FS9 simply does not NEED armor/Structure buffs. It's a bloody tough robot, only overshadowed by the ACH. And that's more a matter of ACH needing nerf than FS9 (the preeminent Light before the ACH was introduced) needing buffed.

Jenner? The Oxide buffs should be across the board.

Guess I'll bug Russ about it on Twitter.... perhaps it's another oversight?

An oversight? You mean like Russ not bothering to address stuff like this on the Official Forums?

That kind of oversight?

[Bishop Steiner]

TLBFestus, on 28 November 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

An oversight? You mean like Russ not bothering to address stuff like this on the Official Forums?

That kind of oversight?

Nope, but those so disposed will twist it into that if they want.

More Like, let's see we got 10,000 things being juggled at once, yup 1 or 2 slipped through this time.

But of course, everyone on the forums are such successful and knowledgeable game developers that.... they..... spend all their time here complaining? Huh...something about that doesn't compute.....

[TLBFestus]

Nice explanation Bishop but it doesn't really explain why they drop the ball so frequently on the abundantly obvious, such as the cockpit monitors that have taken 2 years to fix.

This to me suggests less a matter of 10,000 things being juggled and more a matter of lack of competence. Surely they'd be smart enough to fix the simple things to make a show of "progress". But to each their own choice of colored glasses, eh?

[adamts01]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

More Like, let's see we got 10,000 things being juggled at once, yup 1 or 2 slipped through this time.

It's the 2 & 3 year old, universally recognised, problems which don't get recognized that piss me off. I use lights for most of my examples because they're what I'm most familiar with. Things like this Jenner torso being neglected for so long, just to have some completely idiotic hit box change. There's a huge, jutting torso on that thing, moving hit boxes just shifts the problem, armor/structure buffs or geometry chsnges are the only solutions to mechs with easy to hit components. Then to see the Firestarter get quirks instead.... & then the build an OP Clan Firestarter and give it quirks! Really PGI? People are unjustly hard in PGI for a lot if things, but it's hard to back them up when they make stupid decisions like I mentioned.

As far as cockpit monitors. I don't know how much programing it would take and it's not as important to me as actual gameplay changes. It would be a nice little feature but I don't care too much either way about it.