400 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Sereglach, on 01 December 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

"I like Machine Guns but I don't understand them."

If you look at the rulebook, a Machine Gun builds 0 heat and does 2 damage under 90 meters per round, at one-half ton and 1-slot per Machine Gun. A Flamer does 3 damage for 2 heat under 90m per round, weighing one-half ton and taking one slot, without the necessity for ammunition. An Autocannon 2 does 2 damage for 1 heat out to 630 meters, requiring one slot and six tons. One round in tabletop is ten seconds.

In this game, Machine Guns do .08 damage per hit with zero cooldown; in ten seconds time, a Machine Gun can do 8 damage, with zero heat, at a range of 240 meters, same slot and half-ton. The Flamer does .7 damage at 1 heat with zero cooldown, or about 70 damage every ten seconds, keeping the maximum range of under 90 meters, one slot and one ton. The Autocannon 2 does 2 damage at .72 seconds cooldown and .8 heat at a max range out to 1440 meters, or more than 27 damage in ten seconds, with same slots and tons. These weapons are WAY overpowered compared to what they're supposed to be, and compared to other weapons in the inventory.

I never said they're supposed to be strictly for anti-infantry, but they are also not front line weaponry, they are desperation weaponry being used in a capacity they were never designed to fill.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 01 December 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[Javenri]

Lore described that Clan tech was superior to IS, but IS managed to counter that through some elements like ground, skill, etc. This is fine for story telling but we can't expect the same to apply in MMO were two sides clash. In MMO's all sides should be balanced by having advantages on one field and disadvantages on another, thus creating balance. Otherwise there will be a huge shift of players towards to the strong side and some players from the weaker side quitting (let's not forget that this has happened already here for the Clan side).

As PGI has already stated, there were two possible ways to develop the two sides: either giving superior technology to Clan mechs but force them to fight with less numbers or make them equal giving pros and cons for each side. PGI selected the second option (for obvious reasons) so neither side can be stronger in a technical point of view. You can all stop arguing about "how Clan should be superior tech" because this is a dead horse (no more beating it, ok?)

As for the patch, I played only 3 games so I can't make a safe conclusion. I can only say the patch notes were enough to make me return and give the game another try.

Edited by Javenri, 01 December 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[AnimeFreak40K]

The sheer amount of butt-hurt I’m seeing regarding these changes is both amazing and sad.

It seems to me that people only have a very narrow view of what “balance” is and usually that only focuses on what concerns them alone. It’s like they are completely incapable or unwilling to look at a larger picture. And understand how all of the different facets are linked and work together.

To be quite clear, I play both Inner Sphere and Clans and I’ve been playing on a fairly consistent basis since before the Phoenix pack. Not that I’m using it as bragging rights or anything, but I’m totally going to use it to point out some things as needed.

Regarding Clans:
I honestly felt Clans weren’t as OP as people were making them out to be. They have their pros and cons and I really didn’t think they needed any significant changes. The way I see it, is that Clans have it good in some areas, but really get jerked around in others. For example:
- Clan mechs are more versatile than Inner Sphere mechs because you can swap out OmniPods and pretty much tailor your bonuses and hardpoints as applicable.
- Clan mechs actually lack some versatility due to various aspects being hard-locked into the mech, such as the engine. You also can’t purchase various upgrades such as Endo Steel; either the mech has it or it doesn’t. This hurts those mechs that have lots of extra pod space but no tonnage and/or mechs that have enough tonnage but not enough pod space. You’re stuck!
- Clan mechs generally have ‘better’ weapons…though I use that term loosely. Yes, Clan weapons are lighter and may take up fewer slots, but they also cause more heat and are more expensive. Also, ballistics are generally bad (at least from what I’ve heard and seen), lasers have a much longer burn-time and missiles are better dealt with by AMS… so it’s a bit of a mixed bag.
- Clan XL-Engines are broken as an argument is something I never quite grasped. Yes, Clan mechs can lose a side and still function, but on the other hand, most side torsos are easy to target and the fact of the matter is that it’s easier to punch through a side torso than the center

My general thoughts on the Clans have always been that they were something for people who were more experienced with the game and could manage the nuances of mech construction and heat management.

But you see, that’s my opinion on the matter and I will readily admit that I don’t have all of the numbers. I understand and realize there are facets and aspects that need to be carefully tweaked and adjusted to achieve the goals of what PGI is looking for with Clan mechs: a set of mechs that are noticeably different from the Inner Sphere in both how they work and play, but not exactly better than the Inner Sphere; that is, there should be a significant difference with the look, feel, function and gameplay but one is not better than the other.

All of that being said, I accept the changes that are coming down and I am sure that people will adjust accordingly.

Regarding Inner Sphere:
I understood and realized that when the Clans came out that they flat-out dominated the Inner Sphere, and something had to be done. I also realized that some chassis and variants were just plain out bad, which also prompted some of these changes. All-in-all, I feel that something needs to happen to bridge the gap between Inner Sphere and Clans to make both viable and playable and yet have that magical ‘different but not better’.
At this point, I think the Inner Sphere still suffers from the problem of having some mechs be overquirked to the point that they are dictating how things are and should be played both in the public arena but also in Community Warfare…and some mechs so underquirked that they just sit there collecting dust because they are just plain out bad.

This is a tough job to find that gentle balance because not only does PGI have to balance all of these variants, but they also have to balance them against Clans, and if they go too far with a particular weapon, those weapons will become the meta and/or they run the risk of power-creep.

Regarding the Lore
Okay, this needs to just go away. Period.

The only parts that I see Lore being useful is for the fluff-text, the in-game reason why the different techs are incompatible, a basis for damage, heat and stuff that’s available in-game.

That’s it.

This whole nonsense about ‘Clan Stars’ vs. ‘Inner Sphere Lances’ needs to go away. It’s not going to happen. The bit about combining techs at some point also needs to go away. It’s not going to happen. This has been stated repeatedly for a number of reasons, mostly on the back-end capabilities of the game-engine, but I imagine that there is a certain look/feel that PGI is going after and so Clans and Inner Sphere are forever separated.

Regarding the changes to the Skill Tree
I will admit that I am a little miffed about the changes, but only because I am not convinced that they will fix some of the underlying problems or properly move things in the intended direction. This is mostly because things like torso-twist are tied with a mech’s engine, and Speed Tweak effectively boosted the twist speed. I think as long as various mechs get something to compensate (such as boosts to Torso Turn Rate…or a complete decoupling of Torso Turn Rate from the engine entirely) will help.
The other changes, are kind of ‘meh’ to me and really seem little more than a typical balance pass that I see so often in other MMO-type games. People will figure out how things changed and compensate accordingly.
Frankly, what I would like to see is a complete overhaul of the whole thing…if for nothing else than to make sure that all of the skills on the tree actually *do* something.
Keeping on the same topic of the skill tree, I think some people missed the memo that explained (or at least strongly hinted) that PGI was trying to do something about the Time-To-Kill (TTK) and that they were actually wanting to pull the game back to where it was originally; a slower-paced shooter where things like movement actually mattered…a thinking man’s shooter if you will (as opposed to a twitch-shooter, which requires less thought and more reflex). I say this because people just don’t seem to understand that’s the direction PGI is trying to go in.

All of this being said, I am confident that PGI knows what they’re doing, and they have my respect in that they are showing me that they at least are making genuine and good-faith attempts at taking this game in a positive direction…which I will say they have done very well given the point that they started at 3 years ago.

[Sereglach]

Kay Wolf, on 01 December 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

*snip*

Childish, much? If you want to have a debate, then have a debate. I could quote you and shove in unrelated banter that takes remarks out of context, but that accomplishes nothing but stooping to the pathetic level of asininity you have proudly displayed in this thread.

You also completely dodged everything in regards to the points I made, to do TT damage conversions over a 10 second round. On top of it, you didn't even do them right . . . a Flamer doing 70 damage in 10 seconds?!? Are you daft?! Try 7 damage over 10 seconds at .7 DPS . . . please reread the in-game tooltips and redo your calculations. That's a very serious error that may be skewing your opinions. If you don't believe me, then load up a flamer and go melt the AS7-D's CT in testing grounds . . . I assure you a flamer will not melt 70 points of its armor in 10 seconds. One could only ever fantasize about a Flamer so devastating in MWO, because it's never existed and will never exist.

You said a whole lot of nothing in regards to the points that were previously made. In TT, Flamers, MGs, and AC/2s all have the exact same "DPS" . . . or more aptly damage per round. Thusly, for the sake of argument, they "should" do the same DPS in MWO. Will we see that happen? No. Why? Because of the need to balance a real time combat game, not a turn based strategy/role-playing game (and lets face it, the creators of Battletech were terrible at balance and even admitted it later on . . . thus why they admit the implementation of the clans was the biggest mistake they ever made for Battletech). Every weapon needs to be viable in the game and fill a reasonable role, which is one reason why the AC/2 is a bit of a DPS suppression weapon that now has the ability to crit reasonably well.

Also, the argument of converting MWO weapons to reflect TT "DPS" (even using Solaris rules for more distinct cyclic and "DPS" rates) has been made (I know, I was part of that debate on these forums and the huge "open letter" thread made to PGI that even got PGI response . . . the author was DarkJaguar and it was back in the summer of 2012, if I recall correctly). It's been said, directly by PGI, that it won't happen. Suck it up, and move on. That argument is not worth making and is a moot point of debate. Again, work within the bounds of the game available.

Lastly, desperation weapons? Really?! Bane/Kraken boats UAC/2s (almost to the point of absurdity, and it's clan tech, which is why they're not standard AC/2s). Mauler boats AC/2s. Several Blackjacks have AC/2s as primary weapons. Piranha is a devastating MG boat. Firestarter has Flamers as primary weapons. Jagermech S and DD pair AC/2s with AC/5s as primary weapons. I could go on, but I think that gets the point across. They DO get used as primary weapons, and they DO have roles to fill that can be applied into MWO. It's just a matter of balancing them appropriately.

Regardless, that mentality and level of argument shows exactly why you've been dodging points like stjobe's about the Panther, Jenner, Commando, Wolfhound, and other light mechs being very much strikers, skirmishers, and line fighters.

We need to work within the bounds set before us in order to accomplish a semblance of balance for MWO where every weapon system is viable and worth taking. If you're not willing to do that then you're accomplishing nothing and wasting everyone's time.

Edited by Sereglach, 01 December 2015 - 11:17 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Michal R, on 01 December 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

No one use SRM, they sucks because bad hit detection. Great change for non use weapon

Actually, they suck for some because they cannot aim SRMs right.

MGA121285, on 01 December 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Quirks are strage for some mechs, mean some mechs was already arent too good but after re-quirking they became even more good.... WTF?...

Yeah, that was asked in PTS topics like why buff the BJ while the Vindy is still......
I don't get some Awesome changes either.

Grothaus, on 01 December 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

So now that Clan mechs have been nerfed, why do they still cost 5 times as much in the store?

Grothaus, on 01 December 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

One factor to consider, is how much cheaper IS mechs are, they end up being the preferred mechs of newer players, Clan pilots tend to be composed of more veteran and skilled players from my experience.

IS Mechs are not that cheap when you add up the cost of buying and upgrading them.

ph0tiC, on 01 December 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

This patch was a FAILURE.

Too many things changed in game as far as mechanics of the weapons. Now, you get LRMd to death, and Dual gauss? forget it.

LRMs are strong due to doing max damage 95% of the time.

Edited by Wildstreak, 01 December 2015 - 11:26 PM.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

"Rounding out the patch we have an increase to the total amount of C-Bill Rewards received from the Cadet Bonus for new players"

Does that mean old players that got past the cadet bonus will be compensated with come C-Bills?

[SplashDown]

1st) if i wanted engine problems i would have chosen IS to play
2nd) i see this patch has catered to the IS players dew to there constant whining and crying on the forums
ive read many of the IS complaints on the forums and am forced to ask..why do you listen to these cry babies..95% of them have no clue wtf they are talking about and wouldnt know the 1st thing about game mechanics.....with all there crying on the forums they only make up about 2% of the IS player base..just ignor these players as they are expendable.
3rd) since the product i purchased has been changed i for one would like a refund...
4th) perhaps you should stick to making single player mech games..after seeing the tears from al the over wieght weaklings on these forums i dout i would ever play a mech product again.

[GreyNovember]

http://i.imgur.com/7dUiTRe.png

Highlander has Ballistic Quirks, without having ballistic hardpoints.

And I didn't see this in the hotfix notes.

What is this tomfoolery.

[Moira]

This patch made me sell all my IS mech's away since because the obvius simple rash truth that I cant stand em anymore too good or just plain rubish... well when thats out of the system lets go into details that makes me wonder few times to understand.


OK lore goes out of the window... been there for long time... I know its a game and so...


And now for the numbers game:

- Single most unwanted change:

• Clan LRM20 spread reduced to 6.2m (down from 7.0m). Cooldown of the weapon from 5.0s to 6.5s.

* Hello??? thats effectively 25% Cooldown / Reload time nerf for Clan side when IS gets only ~15% nerf.
** I know LRM20 hasnt been ever a "meta" weapon for other than few ppls and with all the best Mech Quirk/perks and modules C-LRM20 is now totally out of the game.
*** Looking now at IS side Quirks for best LRM-boats +10% Velocity and +20% CDR and all IS missiles already load faster than Clan ones. AND few IS models get even weapon specific (10-20%) CDR to lower reload time even further.
----------

I can understand that things needed to get leveled out, but this is simply almost a murder if we just look IS vs Clan missiles now.

I didnt like laser fiesta that much, but now IS Energy points can reach longer and ALOT faster there than before... So I have to ask where did this all go so badly upside down ?

Edited by Moira, 02 December 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

KursedVixen, on 01 December 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

I think you need to look into the concepts of Buisness, and Stakeholders (No i did not spell it wrong)

PGI is a business (and you did spell that wrong) ... but we, who have bought one or more packs or anything else from PGI, are not (repeat NOT) stakeholders. We are customers.

If you have some expectation that PGI owes you anything more than precisely what they promised in the sale ('mechs, 'mech bays, cockpit trinkets, etc.), especially that the game won't change to make it more balanced or if you think that they answer to you in any way, that you get a vote ... more than a voice on these forums ... then you're delusional.

I get that you and others are upset that a few OP 'mechs aren't as OP anymore ... ACH, SCR, EBJ, HBR, TBR, and DWF are still OP, just not quite as much now.

I'm happy that that more of my founders 'Mechs, Phoenix 'mechs, Resistance 1&2 'mechs, and all of the other 'mechs that got buffed in this balance pass are more useful, and I'm looking forward to seeing what PGI does to make Clan Wave I, II, and III 'mechs that aren't ACH, SCR, EBJ, HBR, TBR, or DWF more useful.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 02 December 2015 - 12:22 AM.

[Setun]

Vajhra, on 30 November 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

Crikey, reducing the max range on Clan Lasers... the whole point of expeditionary warfare is manouver, and that means lighter, faster and longer ranged with less armor. If attackers had the capacity to drop huge tonnage then dropship diplomacy would be sufficient.

It's only to their max range values though. Their optimal ranges haven't been touched.

[Grothaus]

Think with this patch its time to bring the IS dropdeck weights down to match Clans again, or bring the limit up to match IS, either or.

[Setun]

SplashDown, on 01 December 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

1st) if i wanted engine problems i would have chosen IS to play
2nd) i see this patch has catered to the IS players dew to there constant whining and crying on the forums
ive read many of the IS complaints on the forums and am forced to ask..why do you listen to these cry babies..95% of them have no clue wtf they are talking about and wouldnt know the 1st thing about game mechanics.....with all there crying on the forums they only make up about 2% of the IS player base..just ignor these players as they are expendable.
3rd) since the product i purchased has been changed i for one would like a refund...
4th) perhaps you should stick to making single player mech games..after seeing the tears from al the over wieght weaklings on these forums i dout i would ever play a mech product again.

1) Losing a side torso should've affected clan mechs agility / speed when they first released. This change / fix is similar in theory to when they made jump jets require more than just a single jet to achieve max thrust in a mech (in otherwords, not that big a deal.)
2) I've read just as much bitching from predominantly clan mech pilots as I have read IS people complaining. Doesn't matter which side you lean towards people are gonna ***** about the other's mechs and their varied states of OPness. Also word corrections: due, their, ignore.
3) This game is very much like an MMO in that variants / chassis (like classes / professions) can undergo changes / overhauls as the devs attempt to find a balance to everything. You wanting a refund because of you having to adapt to a new change (in this case, losing engine stability) is childish and unreasonable. This patch literally came out yesterday. You haven't had anywhere near enough time to test out the changes. And just a moment ago you were saying the IS folk were cry babies?
4) Knee jerk reaction is extremely knee jerk. Stop **** posting on the forums and actually play the game and you'll see this patch has actually been quite good for the game. I've already seen clan mechs survive with a blown out side torso and still do 500+ damage in their mechs at the end of the round (mostly HBRs and TBRs).

[goatreich]

This patch was great! Balance is one step closer, specially on CW.

[Trifler]

Looks like a good patch!

[Nomad Radick]

I really am fine with all the nerfs, but the heat for the Clans is getting out of hand. Could we at least have the option to switch to Std heat sinks? I've done about 10 games in the standard EBJ 2LPLs 4MLs and I try to chose hot maps for testing under fire. On Terra therma in the crater you get 1 Alpha that sends the heat gauge in it's +60% and you know how many heat sinks this thing has. I wonder if a IS mech that has a similar setup will get 2 or 3 Alpha strikes before it overheats, not to mention the longer burn time on the Clan lasers. I won't stop playing and I call on all Clan players... Brothers and sisters don't let this stop you from being true Clanners chose only hot maps and show the IS that it's the pilot that makes the mech not the other way around.

[SaltBeef]

IS Players Happy
Clan Players Pissed off! Same old same Old since the invasion.
PGI has treated Clan players like the Red Headed Stepchildren.
Never before have I seen such a Cluster .........! In a games developement.
At least if I play fallout I know I will never be pissed and constant patch changes that Nerf or Buff every month.
Check in time to time but everyday gaming in MWO not so much anymore. Loonies running the asylum.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

As a guy who really likes the 2xCLPL, 4xCERML EBJ ...

Nomad Radick, on 02 December 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

I really am fine with all the nerfs, but the heat for the Clans is getting out of hand. Could we at least have the option to switch to Std heat sinks? I've done about 10 games in the standard EBJ 2LPLs 4MLs and I try to chose hot maps for testing under fire. On Terra therma in the crater you get 1 Alpha that sends the heat gauge in it's +60% and you know how many heat sinks this thing has. I wonder if a IS mech that has a similar setup will get 2 or 3 Alpha strikes before it overheats, not to mention the longer burn time on the Clan lasers. I won't stop playing and I call on all Clan players... Brothers and sisters don't let this stop you from being true Clanners chose only hot maps and show the IS that it's the pilot that makes the mech not the other way around.

Maybe that build is part of the problem and reason for the changes?

The EBJ has the more tonnage available for weapons and equipment per ton of 'mech mass, so it doesn't surprise me that they get hit by this change.

[Nomad Radick]

Lol Kageru... don't make assumptions based on a single post, please, you look very foolish. I use mostly ballistic builds since the TBR and SCR nerfs some time ago. I said testing, please read before replying like a boob...

[SplashDown]

well i for one am sick of the IS cry babies..that dont know the 1st thing about game balance trying to speak as tho they do.

personaly im boycotting this game and demanding a refund on the pack i bougfht as it is no longer the product i purchased..and i will be steering as many ppl away from this game as i can

i would recamend all clan players never spend a dime on this game ever again.

i will allso be posting this info on the STEAM forums to insure that steam players dont waist there time or money here

Edited by SplashDown, 02 December 2015 - 03:08 AM.