15 replies to this topic

[Ialdabaoth]

I feel like heat's always been a *wee* bit off in this game.

I also feel like adjusting a few values here and there aren't going to get us anywhere good; a comprehensive re-evaluation is needed.

Here's what I'd like to see:

Basic mechanics
All Battlemechs have a heat scale. The top of that heat scale is determined by the number, and type, of your heat sinks; the bottom of that heat scale is 0.

* Below 20% of a Battlemech's heat scale, the heat scale bar should be green. This indicates that all systems are nominal.

* Above 20% of a Battlemech's maximum heat scale, the heat scale bar should be yellow. Torso twist speed, arm twist speed, turn rate, acceleration, deceleration, and top speed all begin to degrade linearly. At 100% of a Battlemech's maximum heat scale, they degrade to half their normal rate. Thus, at 60% heat scale, a Battlemech's movement and maneuverability are at 75% of normal.

* At 60% of a Battlemech's maximum heat scale, the heat scale bar should be orange. Sensors begin to short out, causing all the 'low signal' effects that are currently associated with enemy ECM coverage. If the Battlemech has taken a Life Support critical hit, then for each full second that the Battlemech's heat scale is above 60%, 0.1 points of internal structure damage are dealt directly to the head. If 'Override shutdown' is disabled, then the Battlemech shuts down at this point.

* At 90% of a Battlemech's maximum heat scale, the heat scale bar should be red. For each full second that the Battlemech's heat scale is above 90%, each ton of ammunition has an 8.3% chance of sustaining 1.0 points of critical hit damage. If this damage reduces an ammunition slot to 0, it explodes (as per the normal critical hit process).

* At 100% of a Battlemech's maximum heat scale, the Battlemech shuts down, even if 'Override shutdown' is enabled. Further damage to the 'mech's internal structure does not occur, except for the LSS and ammunition effects listed above.

Heat Sinks
Heat sinks determine a Battlemech's heat scale capacity, and its dissipation rate. There are six different 'kinds' of heat sinks: (internal or external) x (single, double, or clan double). A heat sink is 'external' if it takes up actual critical slots; it is 'internal' if it is mounted in an engine, either by choice or automatically.

A Battlemech starts at a heat scale capacity of 30.0 heat points, and 0.0 dissipation.

* Internal single heat sink - +1.2 capacity, +0.1 dissipation.
* External single heat sink - +1.0 capacity, +0.12 dissipation.

* Internal double heat sink - +1.2 capacity, +0.15 dissipation.
* External double heat sink - +1.0 capacity, +0.20 dissipation.

* Internal clan double heat sink - +1.2 capacity, +0.12 dissipation.
* External clan double heat sink - +1.0 capacity, +0.18 dissipation.

Critical Hit Effects
Various systems affect a Battlemech's heat performance when destroyed.

* When the Life Support System of a 'mech is damaged, heat above 60% will cause damage to the head at a rate of 0.1 internal structure damage per second.

* When a Heat Sink critical slot is damaged, the Battlemech loses that heat sink's capacity and dissipation.

* When an Engine critical slot is damaged, the Battlemech's heat scale is reduced by -10.0 capacity, and its dissipation is reduced by -0.5.

Weapon Heat
The heat of various systems can be mostly brought back to tabletop values, with maybe a few exceptions.

* Flamer - 0.1/tenth second; a flamer should also add +0.12 heat/tenth second to any mech it hits.
* Small Laser: 1.0
* Small Pulse Laser: 2.0
* Medium Laser: 3.0
* Medium Pulse Laser: 4.0
* Large Laser: 6.0
* Large Pulse Laser: 9.0
* ER Large Laser: 12.0
* PPC: 10.0
* ER PPC: 15.0

* Machinegun: 0.0
* Autocannon/2: 0.5
* Autocannon/5: 1.0
* Ultra Autocannon/5: 1.2
* Autocannon/10: 3.0
* LB-10X: 2.0
* Autocannon/20: 7.0
* Gauss Rifle: 1.5

* Clan ER Small Laser: 2.5
* Clan Small Pulse Laser: 2.0
* Clan ER Medium Laser: 5.0
* Clan Medium Pulse Laser: 4.0
* Clan ER Large Laser: 12.0
* Clan Large Pulse Laser: 10.0
* Clan ER PPC: 15.0

* Clan LB-2X: 0.4
* Clan Ultra Autocannon/2: 0.6
* Clan LB-5X: 0.8
* Clan Ultra Autocannon/5: 1.0
* Clan LB-10X: 2.0
* Clan Ultra Autocannon/10: 4.0
* Clan LB-20X: 6.0
* Clan Ultra Autocannon/20: 8.0

Movement and Environmental Heat
Movement heat and environmental heat seem reasonably well balanced as-is, but they're included here for completeness.

* Moving at below 50% throttle should produce +0.1 heat/second, while moving at 100% throttle should produce +0.2 heat/second, and points in between should scale linearly.

* While jump jets are firing, each jump jet should produce +0.1 heat/second, regardless of class. Also, while jump jets are firing, a Battlemech should be treated as if its ambient temperature was 3.0 heat units higher than the ambient environment.
(And obviously, get rid of Ghost Heat. Seriously.)

Edited by Ialdabaoth, 01 December 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Hotthedd]

I agree with the concept, but I think PGI would never consider it and the QQ from the non-BT arcade crowd would be unbearable.

The only thing I would disagree with is the different values for engine heat sinks and external heat sinks. IMO they should work the same as each other.

[Dawnstealer]

Yep - and I think there should be more visible cues it's getting hotter inside the cockpit. Tunnel vision, "swimming," etc.

Lore-wise, the mech's cockpit was a pretty unbearable place to be.

[Ialdabaoth]

Hotthedd, on 02 December 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

I agree with the concept, but I think PGI would never consider it and the QQ from the non-BT arcade crowd would be unbearable.

Screw 'em. MechAssault was *terrible*. Bring me back real Mechwarrior.

[Tombstoner]

I hate the idea that a one ton heat sink contributes to heat capacity when It should contribute to dissipation only. A mechs base heat capacity should be directly tied to its tonnage. Meaning a 100 ton mech gets 5x the heat cap of a 20 ton mech. why the atlas has a heat cap the same as a commando is i guess more ghost heat physics.

Secondly PGI needs to get over its fear of heat neutral mechs because they are already in game.
PGI designed things to stop them and hacked the game as a result.

Lastly we need heat effects. But heat effects dont work well with ghost heat. alpha your weapons and your suddenly moving and turning at 25% normal would turn off people. because they would get slaughtered by heat neutral mechs and head shots.

The game is what it is until they get a chance to copy what the kickstarter has created.

[Hotthedd]

Why would higher tonnage give more heat capacity?

That is not supported by physics OR lore.

[Ialdabaoth]

Let's run some numbers.

A stock Awesome-8Q has a 240 engine and 28 single Heat Sinks, of which 9 are internal to the engine and 19 are external.

That's a capacity of 30 + (9 x 1.2) + (19 x 1.0), or 59.8.

It fires its three PPCs as a single alpha strike, generating 30 heat. This puts it almost exactly at 50% heat, cutting its speed by 37.5% - from 53kph to 33kph.

Its dissipation is (9 x 0.1) + (19 x 0.12), or 3.18.

This means that after one second, its heat is down to a little under 27 (45%), and its speed has increased to 36kph.

After two seconds, its heat is down to a little under 24 (40%), and its speed has increased to about 40kph.

After three seconds, its heat is down to around 20 (33%), and its speed has increased to about 44kph.

After four seconds, its heat is down to 17 (28%), and its speed is just shy of 50kph.

After five seconds, its heat is down to a little under 14 (under 25%), and its speed drop is barely noticeable. At which point the PPCs have recharged.

Note that during all this time, his torso and arm twist speeds have been affected at the same rate as his speed.

If he alphas again at the 5 second point, he'll shoot up to 44 heat (73%), and be in a world of hurt for at least the next 2.5 seconds, until it drops back to below 36 heat (60%). If he's overridden his shutdown, then he spends those 2.5 seconds with his sensors disabled and below 50% of his top speed, turn rate, twist rate, and so on. If he hasn't overridden his shutdown, then he spends those 2.5 seconds powered down completely.

If he decides to begin with a chain-fire instead of an alpha strike, then upon firing the first PPC, he generates 10 heat and doesn't notice any heat effect at all. If he waits one second before firing the second PPC, he's dissipated 3.18 of that heat, bringing his total heat to 16.82 - 28% of his total. This is a 10% reduction in his top speed and twist rates, putting him at 45kph. In 1.5 seconds he'll drop back to 12 heat and not notice any effects whatsoever.

Note that this isn't quite a convergence fix, but it has many of the same results - causing a drastic drop in performance after an alpha strike, but almost none when chain-firing. It DOES still allow people to front-load damage, giving someone in an 8-PPC Direwolf a truly epic alpha-strike, but at the cost of being utterly vulnerable for a very, very long time.

[BrockSamsonFW]

Hotthedd, on 02 December 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

Why would higher tonnage give more heat capacity?

That is not supported by physics OR lore.

I'm pretty sure that physics does indeed work exactly like that. Higher tonnage = more heat capacity.

[Hawk_eye]

I´m all for a _real_ heat scale.

As for why heat capacity should be larger for larger mechs, well, larger mech has more mass/stuff. More mass takes more heat to heat up (less energy to heat 1kg of iron than to heat 2kg of iron)
Also, more heat-sinks means more cooling liquid, needing more energy to heat up that more liquid (of course, once that liquid _is_ hot, it also takes more (radiation/convection/whatever) to cool it again)

Oh, and while we are on the topic, can anyone explain why a heat-sink mounted _inside_ the engine, where it is hottest is more efficient than one mounted on the outside of the mech, where all the cold air is?

[Hotthedd]

BrockSamsonFW, on 02 December 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that physics does indeed work exactly like that. Higher tonnage = more heat capacity.

So what you are saying is that 1 ton of lead melts at a certain temperature, but 10 tons of lead melts at a much higher temperature?

I am calling my university for a refund!!

I COULD see an object with more SURFACE AREA having a higher rate of HEAT DISSIPATION, but then again I was obviously mis-educated about such things.

[BrockSamsonFW]

Hotthedd, on 03 December 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

So what you are saying is that 1 ton of lead melts at a certain temperature, but 10 tons of lead melts at a much higher temperature?

I am calling my university for a refund!!

I COULD see an object with more SURFACE AREA having a higher rate of HEAT DISSIPATION, but then again I was obviously mis-educated about such things.

No. I'm saying that it takes a certain amount of energy to bring 1 ton of lead to a certain temperature and that bringing 10 tons of lead to the same temperature takes 10 times the energy. In terms of a mech like, Antecursor Venatus said, if all mechs have the same temperature threshold for a shutdown it would take more energy to raise a higher tonnage mech to that temperature than it would a lower tonnage mech, hence the higher threshold. Don't view it as a higher temperature threshold because it's not, it's the same temperature threshold, but it takes a bigger mech more energy to reach that temperature.

[Hotthedd]

BrockSamsonFW, on 03 December 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

No. I'm saying that it takes a certain amount of energy to bring 1 ton of lead to a certain temperature and that bringing 10 tons of lead to the same temperature takes 10 times the energy. In terms of a mech like, Antecursor Venatus said, if all mechs have the same temperature threshold for a shutdown it would take more energy to raise a higher tonnage mech to that temperature than it would a lower tonnage mech, hence the higher threshold. Don't view it as a higher temperature threshold because it's not, it's the same temperature threshold, but it takes a bigger mech more energy to reach that temperature.

That would be true if the 20 ton mech was using the same heat source as the 100 ton mech, but that is not the case. It is not like boiling 20 liters of water on the same stovetop as a 100 liters of water. The bigger mech is actually using more energy to do the same thing, therefore the threshold would be the same.

The heat comes from myomers that run throughout every mech. Larger mechs have more myomers (represented in the game as part of the internal structure). The heat does NOT come from the fusion reaction in the engine itself, but rather the gigawatts of electricity produced by that engine. That electricity runs throughout the entirety of the machine, It would be the same as boiling the 100 liters of water on a much bigger stovetop.

Not to mention the heat from weapons. The heat they produce is the same, whether or not the platform is 20 tons or 100 tons. If it would melt the frame of one mech, it would melt the other just as well. Since there is no way in the game to only melt off an arm, it HAS to be represented by overall heat of the 'mech.

Then we could get into the gameplay aspect of having 100 ton mechs having 5x the heat threshold of 20 ton mechs. If that were to happen, who in their right mind would ever pilot anything smaller than 75 tons?

[Ialdabaoth]

From a gameplay and lore perspective, larger mechs shouldn't have a higher intrinsic heat capacity, beyond that granted by having a larger engine (and thus more 'internal' heat sinks).

Note that my proposed system gives internal engine heat sinks higher capacity, while external heat sinks have higher dissipation; this is a slight acknowledgment of the above idea without breaking gameplay or adherence to Battletech lore *too* hard. (It also allows us to create situations where double heat sinks are truly double, without making all heat sinks double capacity. It also ensures that the 'truly' double heat sinks are the ones that you're actually paying for with crit space.

[Polkastein]

Even if they didn't do anything about the heat scale, perhaps they could curtail the overuse of alphas by making the cooldown double when all weapons in a group fire at the same time. This could potentially encourage more chain firing and increase the TTK.

[Rushin Roulette]

Tombstoner, on 02 December 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

I hate the idea that a one ton heat sink contributes to heat capacity when It should contribute to dissipation only. A mechs base heat capacity should be directly tied to its tonnage. Meaning a 100 ton mech gets 5x the heat cap of a 20 ton mech. why the atlas has a heat cap the same as a commando is i guess more ghost heat physics.

Why in the World would you ever think this?

Heat capacity is directly linked to the size of the engine causing the heat and also with larger engines you also get longer cooling cycles (resulting more cooling liquid/gas). The same engine in an Atlas and a Comando would mean that both Mechs have the same size of engine cooling cycle. The Comando would be more heat efficient only because it has less weapons to additionally heat up the mech, not because the cooling is more efficient in a Light mech.

Indirectly more heatsinks would also contribute slightly to a higher heat capacity as well as only heat dissipation, as the volume of the heatsinks would be added to the cooling cycle, meaning that more liquid/gas is needed to fill the larger volume.

[Tombstoner]

Rushin Roulette, on 15 December 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

Why in the World would you ever think this?

Heat capacity is directly linked to the size of the engine causing the heat and also with larger engines you also get longer cooling cycles (resulting more cooling liquid/gas). The same engine in an Atlas and a Comando would mean that both Mechs have the same size of engine cooling cycle. The Comando would be more heat efficient only because it has less weapons to additionally heat up the mech, not because the cooling is more efficient in a Light mech.

Indirectly more heatsinks would also contribute slightly to a higher heat capacity as well as only heat dissipation, as the volume of the heatsinks would be added to the cooling cycle, meaning that more liquid/gas is needed to fill the larger volume.

Physics... mess with the dissipation rate all you want... heat capacity that doesn't recognizance the mass of the mech is basically magic.... TT has no heat cap. Heat cap is something PGI made up because they dont understand the difrece between instantaneous heat spikes and 30+ heat over 10 seconds causing shut down.

Also add in why the commando has the same number of slots as the atlas. why can an atlas only mount one weapon in its arm. An arm that happens to be the size of a commando....