35 replies to this topic

[The Twon]

Just out of curiosity.

I use the DRG-1N and always have for a while before and during the quirkining, and i still do. But i just dont understand the huge DPS reduction on the model. Dropping this mech i rarely find any other dragons on my team or the other. From the tournaments i see and the streams i watch of high tier play i barely see any used. These all seem to be pretty major criteria for a nerf, i mean ive seen people whine about them but when all you have to do is destroy one arm with 40+15 HP, or w/e it was before the change, i dont see the issue for competent players. I think an Orion got nerfed also that i never saw being used. I understand the Artic cheetah nerf, they were spammed, widely considered strong and were being used at high levels frequently. What is this DRG-1N nerf accomplishing? Am i the only one who feels this way?

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 01:33 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Best I can give you is " 1N is OP when fielded En Masse by competent groups in CW".

[The Twon]

GreyNovember, on 03 December 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

Best I can give you is " 1N is OP when fielded En Masse by competent groups in CW".

I mean is it though? If it was wouldnt i see more than my own 1N in FW? i play for kurita alot of the time sometimes davion. I see one extra max. Its weird. I really honestly dont think anyone was really massing those mechs. And compared to the massing of certain clan mechs this meta. Idk seems like something thats never actually been a problem why change it.

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 01:40 AM.

[Paigan]

Having about 300% DPS was nowhere near sanity. Probably due to failing at basic math (50% less cooldown time does NOT mean 150% dps, but 200% dps, plus some other bonuses and the way they were calculated in).

If the mech needs buffs to be competitive, fine. Armor, agility, speed, heat, range, whatever. But not by taking one AC and turning it effectively into 3 ACs.

Edited by Paigan, 03 December 2015 - 01:45 AM.

[The Twon]

But honestly think about it. Was it that insane? were 1N's running around controlling the meta? Or was it a mech with good arm motion, that could do alot of dps if you could lead/aim well but was a glass cannon, needing an XL to be fast enough to be worth it and all the DPS in one arm. Ill tell you one thing, when i saw a 1N on the other team his right arm would be gone in seconds. That or you just Side torso him instantly. Seems like they just made an exciting mech more normal by making it have a bit more HP and less DPS. If you feared DRG-1N then some aiming is in order IMO. Try running a few games in a solid Dragon build. Even with the added structure and armor in the patch i think you will find its not so simple to keep it alive, let alone putting ac5 on target while doing so.


Also, isnt 50% faster 200% dmg increase? 10 dmg ever 2 seconds over 60 seconds is 5 DPS, firing 50% faster would be 10 dmg every 1 second over 60 seconds would be 10 DPS, 5 DPS to 10 DPS seems like a 200% increase to me not 300% dps. You dont add the oringal DPS into that. 200% accounts for the orginal DPS Plus the added, hence it is over 100%.. So the two AC5 were doing 200% total dps over no quirks, with AC 5 CD module.

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 02:05 AM.

[GreyNovember]

The Twon, on 03 December 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

I mean is it though? If it was wouldnt i see more than my own 1N in FW? i play for kurita alot of the time sometimes davion. I see one extra max. Its weird. I really honestly dont think anyone was really massing those mechs. And compared to the massing of certain clan mechs this meta. Idk seems like something thats never actually been a problem why change it.

I never said it was correct or had to make sense.

Unfortunately I'm not being sarcastic or snarky with this.

[The Twon]

GreyNovember, on 03 December 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

I never said it was correct or had to make sense.

Unfortunately I'm not being sarcastic or snarky with this.

Was that their official reason? Just seems odd that they would be so out of touch with reality.

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 02:07 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

The dragon is one of those mechs that desperately need more energy hardpoints to be viable.

[Alistair Winter]

It's not that it was generally OP, but it was grossly OP in certain situations. Similar to the Huginn. Take them out of their element, they're harmless. But in certain conditions, they'd both chew through assault mechs in seconds. It was ridiculous.

The DRG-1N needs general weapon quirks that encourage the use of all its hardpints. Starting with some huge missile quirks.

[The Twon]

It just needs an identity IMO. It will never really work as an all around/ standard mech. It needs to be exciting/ specialized in some way. The old 1N seemed to do that. as it wasnt spammed, but could make an impact in the right hands, or be shut down by the right hands. At least as i see it now the Dragon is going to continue to fade into mediocrity. Not to say ill stop running it. Its my favorite mech due to its arm based weaponry. But it all seems a bit odd.

Alistair Winter, on 03 December 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

It's not that it was generally OP, but it was grossly OP in certain situations. Similar to the Huginn. Take them out of their element, they're harmless. But in certain conditions, they'd both chew through assault mechs in seconds. It was ridiculous.

The DRG-1N needs general weapon quirks that encourage the use of all its hardpints. Starting with some huge missile quirks.

I guess i can understand it i just literally have never ever once seen it used like that or ever gotten to that point. What triggered them to all the sudden feel this way? Ill say right now the DRN-1N needs the pilot to be 4x better to 1v1 any similar ton mech at this point. I dont think any mech should be forced into using LRM's as that is a stale gameplay style IMO. If a group of 1N can take out assualts quick with coordination, what is stopping ppl from popping 1Ns with coordination. It would take 1/8 the dmg to disable most the DPS on one, and maybe 1/4-1/3 to flat out kill one. And dont say you have to aim to hit that shot because the 1N's have to aim to kill that assualt.

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 02:16 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Yes, it was the problematic case, basically identical to the Grid Iron. You had a mech, that were 100% only useful against unorganized and less experienced players, while completely useless against any competent pilots. It was very easy to take off the Dragon's RA and render him worthless, but otherwise it could shred anything apart in 5-8 seconds. It wasn't about the meta of course, because meta is based on reliability. It was about balance, where a single variant posessed insane advantages, that made other variants obsolete, unless you make them sport the same DPS multiplier.

One of our commanders had a CW dropdeck consisting entirely of DRG-1Ns, wreaking 5000+ damage and 10+ kills, almost each match against any non-full-company opponents. But against equally organized groups its deemed worthless. After quickly reaching 20th faction rank, he was left with nothing to do with these extra 1N mechs and sold them. So in the end, it was frustrating for everyone - opponents, teammates and the man himself.

I can still easily do great with both Grid Iron and DRG-1N, but now it's not that black and white. I've always were frustrated with Dragons, as they were supposed to be 60ton Tanky brawlers, not mere fire-support. What they represent now is much closer to my expectations, and I can use other variants and hero mechs just as well.

The problem of identity goes from the PGI's problem to figuring out the way to balance IS and Clans without quirks. You can evidently see how many of them it took recently to bring Clan mechs to equal ground. They're forced to stack a lot of different quirks to compensate for Clan's overall advantages, and individuality is only achieveable by using fewer quirks per variant. Doing that will result in the same ridiculous values, which previously were met negatively. Thus, the only way to propagate individuality, is to find another general way to get IS on par with Clans, removing all current quirks and redoing them for both IS and Clans on equal terms.

Edited by DivineEvil, 03 December 2015 - 02:21 AM.

[The Twon]

What they represent now are mediocre heavy mechs with easy to shoot off weapons. I mean honestly the 1N being the only Dragon worth using wasnt a testimate to the strength of the mech but to the lack of strength of the other DRG's. Honestly i dont see the issue from your post here. If its a fun mech to use, and can be delt with accordingly whats wrong with it? In a game i play called DOTA/ DOTA 2 there is a hero that can out dps any other hero in the game. Ursa is the hero. He is referred to as OP by newer players, but generally as they learn to deal with his weakness/strengths that max DPS he can put out does not mean much. That hero did not require a nerf. Neither did the DRG-1N. The other DRG's needed quirks that make them more exciting, unique. I bet your CW commander was a good shot to land that dmg and stats. There are definately good dragon pilots who stay positioned well and know when to peak out to save their arm vs good pilots, but that is not easy to do and should be rewarded. And it was. Now..... Its not? Makes no sense. Ive dropped and attacked into clan defense with a 4 dragon drop(a guass 1c and 3 1n varied builds) and i could feel the focus on my right arm when i came under fire, making me change my play. But with good piloting they still were usefull. IDK if i would deem the worthless but you cant sit there and just spray ammo into people. Having people that actually take shots at your right arms and ST's really changes the way you play the mech and make the Skill to reward curve alot steeper. And i see nothing wrong with this.

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[GreyNovember]

The Twon, on 03 December 2015 - 02:07 AM, said:

Was that their official reason? Just seems odd that they would be so out of touch with reality.

As far as I can tell, we don't actually get official reasons given to us about why something is Nerfed / Buffed. I'm speaking from forumwarrior readings.

Much to my chagrin, asking for this kind of dev feedback had me ridiculed.
As Alistair pointed out, you could probably apply this same logic to the Huginn. A few threads cropped up about how it was unpleasant to fight against, as with the Dragon. Those threads shut up quickly when the cheetah came out though. Before that it was the SPL FS9A.

[DivineEvil]

The Twon, on 03 December 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

What they represent now are mediocre heavy mechs with easy to shoot off weapons. I mean honestly the 1N being the only Dragon worth using wasnt a testimate to the strength of the mech but to the lack of strength of the other DRG's. Honestly i dont see the issue from your post here. If its a fun mech to use, and can be delt with accordingly whats wrong with it? In a game i play called DOTA/ DOTA 2 there is a hero that can out dps any other hero in the game. Ursa is the hero. He is referred to as OP by newer players, but generally as they learn to deal with his weakness/strengths that max DPS he can put out does not mean much. That hero did not require a nerf. Neither did the DRG-1N. The other DRG's needed quirks that make them more exciting, unique. I bet your CW commander was a good shot to land that dmg and stats. There are definately good dragon pilots who stay positioned well and know when to peak out to save their arm vs good pilots, but that is not easy to do and should be rewarded. And it was. Now..... Its not? Makes no sense. Ive dropped and attacked into clan defense with a 4 dragon drop(a guass 1c and 3 1n varied builds) and i could feel the focus on my right arm when i came under fire, making me change my play. But with good piloting they still were usefull. IDK if i would deem the worthless but you cant sit there and just spray ammo into people. Having people that actually take shots at your right arms and ST's really changes the way you play the mech and make the Skill to reward curve alot steeper. And i see nothing wrong with this.

They represent a mobile XL-friendly jack-of-all-trades. They NO LONGER represent a running RA with effective firepower of 4xAC/5. That's all. Officially, DRG-1N were just one of the several mechs, that were so much quirked for a single weapon system, that using it in any other build, or using any other variants of a mech, became meaningless. Thiss quirk rework mostly achieved the removal of one-trick-pony characterized mechs. So there's very few specialists left, and even then these few mechs no longer 100% rely on their weapons, nor encouraged to throw every single ton of capacity on them.

In CW it didn't took much effort to make DRG-1N's work. All it took is another mech to engage the enemy first. Then there's an impossible choice for enemy - either 1.) he engages the brawler and get wrecked in several seconds by a Dragon, or 2.) he somehow tries to take off the Dragon's arm, which by itself is hard while it pounds him into the ground, and then the brawler eats him into the back, or 3.) he tries to fall-back, at which point both mechs finish him off.

Now it is encouraged to try different loadouts for the mech. DRG-1N is notable among the variants by that is has equal number of all hardpoints, thus the most reasonable way to make it work is to use a higher variety of weapons. For example, AC/10, 2xLarge Lasers and 2xSRM4 on XL285. No matter what arm you enemies will choose to focus, you will always end up with respectable firepower. SRMs were never used on Dragons and were generally overlooked, but it's no longer reasonable. And this is how Dragons were supposed to be to begin with.

Edited by DivineEvil, 03 December 2015 - 03:19 AM.

[sycocys]

Paigan, on 03 December 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

If the mech needs buffs to be competitive, fine. Armor, agility, speed, heat, range, whatever. But not by taking one AC and turning it effectively into 3 ACs.

This is why it was debuffed. It really is pretty simple.

[KinLuu]

The Dragon-1N and its wolverine brother were a cancer upon this game.

They were a chore to fight against and a chore to fight amongst. They had the potential to suck the fun out of the game.

Thank god, they are gone. Dead and buried. Never to return.

[The Twon]

I mean the way i look at it is, people who can aim and prioritize in MWO, dont fear those kind of mechs. Wasnt that amazing, people just dont know how to aim. The dragon will always be very easy to disarm. Im not saying lets go right back to what it was, but its not going to do much as it is.

DivineEvil, on 03 December 2015 - 03:18 AM, said:

Now it is encouraged to try different loadouts for the mech. DRG-1N is notable among the variants by that is has equal number of all hardpoints, thus the most reasonable way to make it work is to use a higher variety of weapons. For example, AC/10, 2xLarge Lasers and 2xSRM4 on XL285. No matter what arm you enemies will choose to focus, you will always end up with respectable firepower. SRMs were never used on Dragons and were generally overlooked, but it's no longer reasonable. And this is how Dragons were supposed to be to begin with.

Well no, it still have ac/5 quirks does it not? And our energy was barely touched. Really it was a sizable Fire Rate debuff, and Structure HP increase because PGI really dont know what else to do at this point.

KinLuu, on 03 December 2015 - 03:47 AM, said:

The Dragon-1N and its wolverine brother were a cancer upon this game.

They were a chore to fight against and a chore to fight amongst. They had the potential to suck the fun out of the game.

Thank god, they are gone. Dead and buried. Never to return.

Ive used Dragons from when they had no quirks, and were awful. I love the mech and its philosophy, weapons on arms allowing good positioning and free range for aiming. So i will still be running it and Ill still send clanners to hell in my DRG-1N. Ill just have to outplay people pretty hard to do it. Dragons are going to be in limbo untill they figure something out. As of right now the best dragon perks might go to the FANG as the 1C is alright, and the 5N UAC5 is unreliable even with -30% Jam.

Edited by The Twon, 03 December 2015 - 03:57 AM.

[KinLuu]

The Dragon simply needs a new right arm. One that is not dragging along the ground.

Something like this: http://www.sarna.net.../0d/Dragon2.jpg

[The Twon]

Yea that would be nice. Id like to see more energy points also, more like a grand dragon. but well see.

[Kyynele]

The Twon, on 03 December 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

I mean is it though? If it was wouldnt i see more than my own 1N in FW? i play for kurita alot of the time sometimes davion. I see one extra max. Its weird. I really honestly dont think anyone was really massing those mechs. And compared to the massing of certain clan mechs this meta. Idk seems like something thats never actually been a problem why change it.

Like GreyNovember said, "1N is OP when fielded En Masse by competent groups in CW".

The important part in this is the "En Masse". That's why you rarely saw those. If you drop solo, losing a whole mech when you lose that big arm that you can't protect is a huge risk to take. For many, it's not worth it. However, when you did get a group of say, 8+ players with 4 1Ns each, it doesn't matter that 1 or 2 Dragons in the initial push lose their arms, as the rest will steamroll the average opposition without breaking a sweat. Did it, was funny. Likely not much so for the opposing side.

Also, you could, and many individuals did, also use a 4 1N deck for solo drops for easy 2000-3000 dmg per match, win or loss. I did do it, and it was pretty much the easiest and most effortless way to get piles of monies in the game.

It was broken. Now it's fixed. I sold 3 of my 1Ns and stripped the last one, I'm pretty sure there won't be any use for it in the future. But at least it had it's time in the limelight, there are tons of mechs that have just been bad forever.