172 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Mizeur, on 06 December 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

No, it was the introduction of Clan laser boats and Gauss+laser builds. Quirks were a response to that.

That doesn't dispute what I said.

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No, Gauss was a feature of mid-range builds that were also effective brawlers. I could brawl effectively in a dual Gauss EBJ with 3ERSLs.

It was more effective than it should be because other weapons that are supposed to be good are bad, and that includes brawling weapons.

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We must be playing a different game. Next you'll tell me LRMs are OP.

Only SRMs are arguable as somewhat decent, and considering their bad damage for how many drawbacks they have they're certainly not good; several other weapon systems are still just plain bad and remain bad even after a needless gauss nerf.

And no, LRMs are not OP.

Edited by Pjwned, 07 December 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[BigBenn]

back on track... the more a thread gets off topic the less PGI is going to monitor it for legit info.

Just an update from an avid gauss user (or rather "former" user): today I removed the gauss from the last mech that was using it. I used to use the gauss religiously on the Jager -DD, the CTF-0XP, and the MAD-3R. I put my Jager -DD back to dual UAC-5's and dual AC2's last week, the CTF-0XP went to a dual ERPPC/UAC5 combo last week as well, and today I converted my MAD-3R to dual PPC, AC10, and dual MPL.

The gauss is simply not worth it. The ONLY map I would consider the gauss worth while to use on is Alpine (roll the dice on if its comes up in que, and then roll the dice again to get it chosen). Otherwise, the benefits do not equal the liability.

The worst attributes are the .75 sec charge up, the 5.5 second cool down, and the 5 health. Unless the range of the gauss can be utilized it will remain in the weapons locker for me. I think the weight, the size (slots), the damage, the ranges, and the ammo/ton, are all good. No issues. But the charge up (the WORST attribute), and the 5 health are retarding this weapon. The 5.5 reload not so much, but with that length of time for cool down there should be no charge up. Period.

I sully support keeping the game fluid and able to be adjusted for balance, etc, but the gauss didnt need that kind of nerf.

If PGI would stop and look at what is going on, they'd spend more time tinkering with the issues of lasers being overbearing than monkeying with the gauss. But alas, I don't own, operate, nor am I employed by PGI so all I can do is plead with them to take another look and see the gauss for what it is.

Please remove the charge up and increase the health back up to 10.

[Dimento Graven]

BigBenn, on 07 December 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

back on track... the more a thread gets off topic the less PGI is going to monitor it for legit info.

Just an update from an avid gauss user (or rather "former" user): today I removed the gauss from the last mech that was using it. I used to use the gauss religiously on the Jager -DD, the CTF-0XP, and the MAD-3R. I put my Jager -DD back to dual UAC-5's and dual AC2's last week, the CTF-0XP went to a dual ERPPC/UAC5 combo last week as well, and today I converted my MAD-3R to dual PPC, AC10, and dual MPL.

The gauss is simply not worth it. The ONLY map I would consider the gauss worth while to use on is Alpine (roll the dice on if its comes up in que, and then roll the dice again to get it chosen). Otherwise, the benefits do not equal the liability.

The worst attributes are the .75 sec charge up, the 5.5 second cool down, and the 5 health. Unless the range of the gauss can be utilized it will remain in the weapons locker for me. I think the weight, the size (slots), the damage, the ranges, and the ammo/ton, are all good. No issues. But the charge up (the WORST attribute), and the 5 health are retarding this weapon. The 5.5 reload not so much, but with that length of time for cool down there should be no charge up. Period.

I sully support keeping the game fluid and able to be adjusted for balance, etc, but the gauss didnt need that kind of nerf.

If PGI would stop and look at what is going on, they'd spend more time tinkering with the issues of lasers being overbearing than monkeying with the gauss. But alas, I don't own, operate, nor am I employed by PGI so all I can do is plead with them to take another look and see the gauss for what it is.

Please remove the charge up and increase the health back up to 10.

There's some key points in here that many people (typically those that are either overtly against the existence of gauss, or those that are 'I think gauss is now fine' pretenders) avoid/miss/don't understand is that for the same weight in lasers and heat sinks is very easy to build huge alphas with MUCH lower risk.

They want to blame gauss for TTK, even though, without gauss, there's still CERLL/ERLL that can hit from long distance for a lot of damage, and have always been able to MUCH MUCH faster than gauss ever could.

Currently the CERLL/ERLL base recharge (before skills/modules/quirks are applied) is 3.25, darn near HALF that of gauss's. Then after applying skills, modules, and quirks you can also have a significantly extended range of the CERLL/ERLL too. Yes, not as far as gauss, BUT, for those of you who still play sub-optimally, marching forward in a straight line, out in the open, face tanking your way into battle, the CERLL/ERLL is still dragging your TTK downward EVEN FASTER than the gauss is.

Then TTK, when engaged at 'normal brawling ranges', everyone just seems to skip over the ballistics vomit, where CAC20/AC20 are devastating midrange/short range brawling weapons that have ALWAYS hit harder than gauss, and with MUCH LESS risk as those particular weapons all qualify as 'twitch' weapons with no charge up complicating their use.

It's just that the broken balance between Clan and IS:

IS - Can change engines, can't change hard points.
Clan - Can't change engines, can change hard points (Omni-pod manipulation).

Allows the Clan a significant survivability/speed/alpha advantage over the IS.

I can't think of any KGC, Jaeger, Cataphract, Mauler, Catapult, et al, on the IS side that will be able to have the combined alpha of a Direwolf, or the speed and survivability of the lighter dual gauss clan builds.

The Clan portion of this equation is out of balance from the IS perspective, not just a specific weapon narrow view point.

BEYOND the "is the Clan balanced vs. IS jihadi-ism" though, if you want to increase TTK in MWO then you're going to have to start thinking about hard weapon limitations on ALL the other weapons in the game, along the lines of the gauss "can only fire a maximum of two at once"...

2 AC20's do more damage than 2 gauss.
3 AC10's do the same damage as 2 gauss.
6 AC5's do the same damage as 2 gauss, (though even if you can load 6, you won't, and you'll probably be firing them chain just for the sheer 'disruption' effect brought on by cockpit rattle and impact flash)
4 ERLL's do more damage than 2 gauss.
3 PPC's do the same damage as 2 gauss.
6 medium lasers do the same damage as 2 gauss.

Almost ALL those weapons in the combos listed can be fired AT LEAST twice before heat is a significant issue.
Almost ALL those weapons can be fired AT LEAST twice for every time gauss is fired.
ALL those weapons are smaller, lighter, AND tremendously more durable than gauss.
ALL of those weapons have a much higher DPS than gauss.
NONE of those weapons will explode if destroyed (yes the other ballistics do have explosive ammo)
NONE of these weapons has a charge up cycle.
NONE of these weapons has a limitation on the number that can be fired at one time.

So all the while you people are working your way into nerfing gauss out of existence you're still having the same TTK issues, just with other weapons. Weapons you don't cry about because they are simple enough for you to use them, and aren't subject to such significant restrictions and risks, and are therefore prejudiced away from suggesting any nerfs on.

Like I keep saying, now that there's going to be even LESS use of gauss in the game, because at 1.5 seconds more per shot, by the very nature of time itself, there's LESS gauss being fired each match than before, it's going to be interesting to see what you blame your 'untimely' deaths on in the future...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 07 December 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[Alianton]

Pjwned, on 06 December 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

2. I will repeat myself here; that says more about other weapons being bad than it does about gauss being good. Why do people not use weapons like machine guns, SRMs, LBX cannons, etc? Because they're bad? Hint: the answer is yes.

apologies, but have you tried using SRMs lately? there's a reason there's a lot more splatapults, splatcrows, splat shadowhawks.

[Lightfoot]

With the 5.5 second cooldown the charge-up is no longer needed. I am not sure they want the Gauss at 2000 mps, but the charge-up is not needed. Even at a 4 second recycle (which we told PGI was too short when compared to the AC20) the Gauss Rifle with no charge-up did not cause bad gameplay problems in MWO. TTK times were longer back then than now with laser-vomit, so nothing bad except that the Gauss was replacing the AC20, but the AC20 is too slow at 650 mps and 270 meter range.

Just remove the Gauss charge-up and be brave, some competing configs vs laser-vomit would be extremely refreshing and bring dead mech types back to life. You have nothing to fear from a normal Gauss Rifle with 5.5 second recharge except a challenge to laser-vomit. That's a good thing though.

[Captain Stiffy]

Ultimatum X, on 03 December 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

Good lord, what's the view like from whatever basement tier you are dwelling in?

Pretty great view of the Wasatch mountains actually.

[Khobai]

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The cooldown nerf on gauss rifles is ridiculously overdone by the way

It was overnerfed on purpose.

They did the same thing to PPCs. They went from meta to useless overnight.

PGIs idea of balancing is just to nerf whatever the meta weapons are, until a new meta arises, then nerf that meta, and repeat over and over nerfing in circles


The most recent blunder is PGI using quirks for weapon balance. Which is completely retar ded.

Players wanted quirks added to differentiate similar mechs. They did not want quirks to be used to fundamentally balance the game. The whole reason thats stupid is because now clan mechs cant have quirks given to them for differentiation purposes. Thats why most clan mechs are terrible and you only ever see the same 3-4 clan mechs over and over.

Clan and IS weapons should be straight up balanced without quirks. A CERML should be roughly equal to an ISML. Just a little different (higher damage, higher heat, longer range, longer cooldown/burntime). They should be equal but different. Not better and only equal after quirks are applied. Quirks should ONLY be used for differentiating mechs. They should not be used for making IS weapons equal to clan weapons.

For example:

CERML = 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range, 3.25 cooldown, 1.25 burn time
ISML = 5 damage, 4 heat, 270m range, 3.0 cooldown, 1.0 burn time

Now the two are approximately equal but different. clans retain their damage/range advantage at the expense of heat and longer cooldowns/burntime.

Wow Khobai you balanced that **** like a pro in all of 2 minutes. And Paul couldnt do it in 2 years.

Edited by Khobai, 26 December 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 26 December 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

It was overnerfed on purpose.

They did the same thing to PPCs. They went from meta to useless overnight.

PGIs idea of balancing is just to nerf whatever the meta weapons are, until a new meta arises, then nerf that meta, and repeat over and over nerfing in circles


The most recent blunder is PGI using quirks for weapon balance. Which is completely retar ded.

Players wanted quirks added to differentiate similar mechs. They did not want quirks to be used to fundamentally balance the game. The whole reason thats stupid is because now clan mechs cant have quirks given to them for differentiation purposes. Thats why most clan mechs are terrible and you only ever see the same 3-4 clan mechs over and over.

Clan and IS weapons should be straight up balanced without quirks. A CERML should be roughly equal to an ISML. Just a little different (higher damage, higher heat, longer range, longer cooldown/burntime). They should be equal but different. Not better and only equal after quirks are applied. Quirks should ONLY be used for differentiating mechs. They should not be used for making IS weapons equal to clan weapons.

For example:

CERML = 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range, 3.25 cooldown, 1.25 burn time
ISML = 5 damage, 4 heat, 270m range, 3.0 cooldown, 1.0 burn time

Now the two are approximately equal but different. clans retain their damage/range advantage at the expense of heat and longer cooldowns/burntime.

Wow Khobai you balanced that **** like a pro in all of 2 minutes. And Paul couldnt do it in 2 years.

If only PGI used the "great mech re-balance" as an opportunity to do this, but considering what a huge flop that turned out to be I have zero confidence that it will happen unless management is replaced by people that aren't lazy idiots.

[Lightfoot]

Get rid of the charge-up and the Gauss is perfect at 5.5 to 6 seconds recycle and does not rely on new players who can't use the charge-up to achieve it's balancing. Right now the charge-up only affects NEW PLAYERS and the 30% of MWO players who could never make it work. It just doesn't fit the RP of a mech anyway. I mean why even have a robot control interface if it can't charge your weapons? Makes no sense. Now maybe if the charge-up overcharged the Gauss Rifle and was optional it would fit, but just to fire it? No, never, and never has been till MWO.

[BigBenn]

I just tried to use gauss on the Shadow Hawk hero "Gray Death". Two drops and both with horrid results. First map was Caustic and the second was bog. After two horrid drops off came the gauss and back on went the AC10 and LRM's.

About the only mechs I'm seeing the gauss on is the Dire Wolf dual gauss and the Shadow Cat (probable stock/trial variant).

Ultimately, for me on both of those drop it wasn't the 5.5 second reload, It was the extremely short window of time for me to shoot before the enemy mech was behind cover. At least with the AC10 I can get an insta-shot and further more get TWO shots in less amount of time vs the gauss. The charge up is what is killing the gauss, and the 5 health. Though, tonight for whatever reason I did not ever lose my gauss, it was not ever destroyed before my engine was.

PGI... just two simple things with the guass: REMOVE the charge up and increase the weapon strength back up to 10. Leave the cool down at 5.5 seconds to give the AC's their dueling edge. Thanks.

Edited by BigBenn, 03 January 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

The gauss is useless with its current recycle time. Please undo this change. It makes it pointless to take gauss because he dps is so low with the charge up time plus recycle

[Trauglodyte]

The thing about the Gauss Rifle is that is has always been in a precarious position. During the heyday of the Jump Sniping garbage that went on, it was the GRx2 + PPCs or PPCs + GRx1. So, instead of putting in a "blackout" power drain for PPCs after the GR was fired, they added in the charge up. After all, the GR is an entirely different beast than autocannons and it should never have been basically an AC15. On top of that, the GR was and still remains the premiere sniping projectile weapon due to the damage and speed combination. Given all of that, it can't be allowed to be packed with other PPFLD weapons or be a good brawling weapon.

The problem, in my eyes, has always been how clunky the GR has been. I don't mind the charge up mechanic being added but it becomes incredibly cumbersome. I've never liked how limited the weapon "cool down" HUD signal is and the addition of the charge up just made it that much more awkward. The overall concept is great but the implementation is what is so bad.

[The Image]

Trauglodyte, on 03 January 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

The thing about the Gauss Rifle is that is has always been in a precarious position. During the heyday of the Jump Sniping garbage that went on, it was the GRx2 + PPCs or PPCs + GRx1. So, instead of putting in a "blackout" power drain for PPCs after the GR was fired, they added in the charge up. After all, the GR is an entirely different beast than autocannons and it should never have been basically an AC15. On top of that, the GR was and still remains the premiere sniping projectile weapon due to the damage and speed combination. Given all of that, it can't be allowed to be packed with other PPFLD weapons or be a good brawling weapon.

The problem, in my eyes, has always been how clunky the GR has been. I don't mind the charge up mechanic being added but it becomes incredibly cumbersome. I've never liked how limited the weapon "cool down" HUD signal is and the addition of the charge up just made it that much more awkward. The overall concept is great but the implementation is what is so bad.

Minor correction to all that... There was never a 'mech that could equip gauseX2, AND jump, AND equip PPCs, beyond one of the Cataphracts, and doing that in a Cataphract required some SERIOUS pairing down of engine and armor... Glass cannon...