172 replies to this topic

[Malagant]

I love it, PGI nerfs Gauss Rifles to help with the laser vomit and now the vomit will be just as bad or worse as people learn that the ballistics are still horrible by comparison.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

I actually play gauss for the fun mechanic and not for the imba FLPD, guess i'm an oddball.

[Captain Stiffy]

The gauss is not intended to be a DPS weapon and they finally fixed it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Captain Stiffy, on 03 December 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

The gauss is not intended to be a DPS weapon and they finally fixed it.

It never was a DPS weapon, FYI.

[Pjwned]

Almond Brown, on 03 December 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

It would be preferred if players "whined" about the other Ballistics. Take the AC2, a great weapon for that single left over slot except @6t you get "2 pts. of damage" Come on Man!". The Gauss, ton for ton, is god like in comparison. It is #2 on the Ballistic damage list ffs.

If somehow one could get 4 AC2's on a Ballistic chassis without using up 24t (sans ammo) now that would be truly great.

That says more about how bad AC2 is generally, not how good the gauss rifle is, so that's not a very convincing argument.

Quote

P.S. Being able to hold the shot longer defeats the purpose of the charge totally so NO. Learn to live with a high damage, has a blistering fast shell (2000ms) before quirks/mods that travels out to 3X its optimal range.

That's a huge exaggeration, I'm not proposing that it can be held indefinitely (for obvious reasons) or anything longer than 2.5 seconds, all I'm saying is the shot should be able to stay charged for a reasonable duration.

It's not unreasonable at all to be able to hold the shot for longer than 1.25 seconds (which is barely any time at all) after charging it up for 0.75 seconds, and no it doesn't defeat the purpose of the charge mechanic because you still can't hold the shot long enough to fire it whenever you want. The only real reason I can think it would be a problem is for bads who get spotted rounding a corner and run into a gauss rifle shot because the enemy gauss mech played it smart and readied up a shot when they saw somebody on their radar.

[Almond Brown]

BigBenn, on 03 December 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

See what you can do with a Jager -DD armed with 4 AC2's vs 2 gauss..... report back.

Reporting in sir. The Match went way longer than expected, 11 minutes roughly. Need to strip to 50% armor to carry more AC2 ammo in case it happens again. Ran out at 7 minutes in. That shits burns off some fast with 4 of those babies raging from range. And those 2 ML back ups... ummmm...will need to keep those.

Can we perhaps try a 3 AC5 build next Match please sir. Way Cooler, can carry more ammo and the 3 do almost double the damage...

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 December 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Odins Steed, on 03 December 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

Do you're own bloody leg work, it's not hard to figure out both the RT and RA can fit Gauss on the Timby. I get that you're RRB but come on, don't go full minda here.

Screw yourself.

Go ahead and insult me all you like, leave the RRB out of it.

Quote

And I explicitly said these were 2Gauss+3ML builds. You've got back up weapons with an extremely cool running 51 point alpha. Ammo is 4 tons for the pub stomper build, armor is stripped significantly but it's not as big a deal as you think.

Ok, so you're running, what? .5 tons of gauss ammo, on a dual gauss Timby? Or how much ammor have you sacrificed to load up a practical amount of armor? Almost the same on the EBJ, 1.5 tons seems to be the max with maximum armor.

.5 and 1.5 tons of ammo for a dual gauss build isn't all that practical, you're either sacrificing significant armor, or your spending most of your battle with only 3 CERMLs.

Quote

Yes I think it's fine. If that delay is too much for a build with only two Gauss stop using just two Gauss. 1G/6ML was another viable build pre-nerf that still works.

And mate, if you don't think I've run it much go watch our MRBC recordings. I'm made fun off for only running dual Gauss in AU comp circles.

Again, I disagree with your assessment, and no I'm not going to view third person recordings. If you've got any of you from your cockpit doing what you claim, I might be interested. Primarily because EVERY OTHER Australian I've spoken with has a completely different opinion of the gauss when they play on NA servers, and I know the lag shield affect is still present even with HSR when I'm against someone of 400+ ping, and many Australians have pings approaching that...

Anyone who uses gauss knows that taking a base 4.75 reload/recharge cycle and jumping it all the way up to a base 6.25 seconds reload/recharge cycle is absolutely excessive given ALL THE OTHER nerfs and restrictions already put in place over the years.

[Almond Brown]

Pjwned, on 03 December 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

That says more about how bad AC2 is generally, not how good the Gauss rifle is, so that's not a very convincing argument.

That's a huge exaggeration, I'm not proposing that it can be held indefinitely (for obvious reasons) or anything longer than 2.5 seconds, all I'm saying is the shot should be able to stay charged for a reasonable duration.

It's not unreasonable at all to be able to hold the shot for longer than 1.25 seconds (which is barely any time at all) after charging it up for 0.75 seconds, and no it doesn't defeat the purpose of the charge mechanic because you still can't hold the shot long enough to fire it whenever you want. The only real reason I can think it would be a problem is for bads who get spotted rounding a corner and run into a Gauss rifle shot because the enemy Gauss mech played it smart and readied up a shot when they saw somebody on their radar.

If you have not taken the shot with your Gauss after the current allowed time, you aren't ever gonna take that shot anyways. The Gauss is a sniper rifle equivalent. If you have never looked through a scoped rifle while standing up, try it some time. If you have then you should not be arguing the hold time unless you also make the shooter be absolutely still during that time. Never ever seen a Sniper run and Gun, and that is for a very good reason. Same should hold true in MWO. You want to run and gun, take an AC20...

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 December 2015 - 09:39 AM.

[Pjwned]

Captain Stiffy, on 03 December 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

The gauss is not intended to be a DPS weapon and they finally fixed it.

The only thing this tells me is that you like to stare down the barrel of a gauss rifle because you're extremely bad.

Its DPS was already miserable at a 4 second cooldown + a minimum 0.75 second charge-up for a whopping ~3.16 DPS at 15 tons, and if you consider that a DPS weapon my only conclusion is that you're bad.

[Tarogato]

Dimento Graven, on 03 December 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

From your statement it either sounds like you're saying you were running dual gauss builds on Timberwolves and Ebon Jaguars, OR, that you were getting hit hard by dual gauss carriers while in your Timberwolves and EBJ's.

I didn't think there was a configuration in Timberwolf that could run dual gauss, if so, Smurphy it for me, I'd be interested in reviewing it.

Doing the same in an EBJ well, you're left with what? 45 ammo, at best (if you max out armor, obviously a bit more if you're willing to sacrifice armor), and a lot less if you want a backup weapon of some sort.

...


I disagree with your assessment, and actually don't really believe you use it all that much...

This guy, Odins Steed, pretty much pioneered the dual gauss Timby and was one of the first people to adopt the dual gauss EBJ. Trust me when I say he knows what he's talking about and he's played the everliving сrap out of dual gauss.

Here is the 2Gauss/3Med EBJ: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...369a59e2a988dbf

Four tons of ammo is usually plenty for this mech. First of all, you need to couple your arms so that both rifles are pinpoint together. Second, you need to focus the best component on a mech (i.e. don't waste shots on shield arms and such). Third, you need to not miss. Ever. Following those three rules, you can easily get 800+ dmg games with multiple kills. It works.

Now, we translate the exact same build over to the Timber Wolf: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...925b1daac134e19

You'll notice that this build has the exact same armour values as the EBJ above. 35 on the arm, 40 on the legs, 7 on the head, and 59/83/59 on the torsos. But the Timber also has an extra 2/4/2 structure on the torsos, 4 extra on the arm, and 2 on the legs. The Timber also has better hitboxes so it can spread damage better instead of eating everything to the CT like the EBJ does. At the expense of a duration and mobility debuff, it also gets all three lasers high-mounted. (here's a build that exchanges the debuffs for two other downsides: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c2909b0512ef197 )

It's a very potent build and it has proved valuable both in competitive matches (such as Midway, MRBC, and NBT) and in solo/group queue. I've seen it do crazy work and I have one in my stable as well. With a very slight modification it was also one of the best heavies for organised 1v1 dueling as well... but the gauss nerf hit it hard. Very hard. I would even argue that it was one of the absolute best builds on the Timber, hands down, but it can no longer tout that title and I'm not even sure it's worth bringing at all. I think the gauss nerfs were a bit heavy handed. I would have liked to see a 5.0 cooldown instead of a 5.5.

Edited by Tarogato, 03 December 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[Dashia]

The guass is fine i love running it. Yes the hold could be longer. The charger could be shorter or nonexistent. The point is no matter what happens to it someone will whine and others will cheer. If you dont like the weapon system then dont use it, or get good at using it simple as that.

[Dimento Graven]

Tarogato, on 03 December 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

This guy, Odins Steed, pretty much pioneered the dual gauss Timby and was one of the first people to adopt the dual gauss EBJ. Trust me when I say he knows what he's talking about and he's play the everliving shjt out of dual gauss.

Here is the 2Gauss/3Med EBJ: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...369a59e2a988dbf

Four tons of ammo is usually plenty for this mech. First of all, you need to couple your arms so that both rifles are pinpoint together. Second, you need to focus the best component on a mech (i.e. don't waste shots on shield arms and such). Third, you need to not miss. Ever. Following those three rules, you can easily get 800+ dmg games with multiple kills. It works.

Now, we translate the exact same build over to the Timber Wolf: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...925b1daac134e19

You'll notice that this build has the exact same armour values as the EBJ above. 35 on the arm, 40 on the legs, 7 on the head, and 59/83/59 on the torsos. But the Timber also has an extra 2/4/2 structure on the torsos, 4 extra on the arm, and 2 on the legs. The Timber also has better hitboxes so it can spread damage better instead of eating everything to the CT like the EBJ does. At the expense of a duration and mobility debuff, it also gets all three lasers high-mounted. (here's a build that exchanges the debuffs for two other downsides: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c2909b0512ef197 )

It's a very potent build and it has proved valuable both in competitive matches (such as Midway, MRBC, and NBT) and in solo/group queue. I've seen it do crazy work and I have one in my stable as well. With a very slight modification it was also one of the best heavies for organised 1v1 dueling as well... but the gauss nerf hit it hard. Very hard. I would even argue that it was one of the absolute best builds on the Timber, hands down, but it can no longer tout that title and I'm not even sure it's worth bringing at all. I think the gauss nerfs were a bit heavy handed. I would have liked to see a 5.0 cooldown instead of a 5.5.

Yes, effective as long as you don't have to brawl, or face another opponent who place a gauss round on your cockpit...

[Dock Steward]

Dimento Graven, on 03 December 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Ok, so you're running, what? .5 tons of gauss ammo, on a dual gauss Timby? Or how much ammor have you sacrificed to load up a practical amount of armor? Almost the same on the EBJ, 1.5 tons seems to be the max with maximum armor.

A slightly more optimized version of the build I posted earlier: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ba2a2671d53dbde

[Pjwned]

Almond Brown, on 03 December 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

If you have not taken the shot with your Gauss after the current allowed time, you aren't ever gonna take that shot anyways. The Gauss is a sniper rifle equivalent. If you have never looked through a scoped rifle while standing up, try it some time. If you have then you should not be arguing the hold time unless you also make the shooter be absolutely still during that time. Never ever seen a Sniper run and Gun, and that is for a very good reason. Same should hold true in MWO. You want to run and gun, take an AC20...

So what you're saying is that you're backpedaling and the proposed increase in time to hold the shot doesn't actually defeat the purpose of the charge at all, and bring up some irrelevant point about running & gunning.

Cool story 10/10 quality argument as usual.

Additionally, being able to hold the shot for longer is better than holding it, the shot dissipates, and then about ~0.5 seconds later you see an opportunity to fire except you can't because your shot already dissipated.

[Stgn21]

How about a crazy idea for a gauss change..... Set the charge time to 6 seconds, with the ability to hold it almost indefinitely, but zero cool down time... It would give you a completely different flavour compared to ACs, while still keeping to how rail gun would work - charge the capacitors, then you can shoot. You might nail the first guy coming round the corner, but synching with other weapons would take some skill...

[Pjwned]

Stgn21, on 03 December 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

How about a crazy idea for a gauss change..... Set the charge time to 6 seconds, with the ability to hold it almost indefinitely, but zero cool down time... It would give you a completely different flavour compared to ACs, while still keeping to how rail gun would work - charge the capacitors, then you can shoot. You might nail the first guy coming round the corner, but synching with other weapons would take some skill...

With an indefinite amount of time to hold the shot that does defeat the purpose of charging it up, so no.

[Shismar]

I recently played a build with a Gauss for a bit because it was preconfigured. Even after leveling to master it I can not gather how to efficently use that cannon. Seeing that it gets its usefullness reduced even more, I guess it is time to swap it out.

Increased holding time would probably make it a little more usable. But the only way to save it would be to remove the complete load and hold mechanics. Just a little delay on firing (short!) to make it different from ACs is sufficient. Oh wait, wasn't that how it worked in some distant past?

Edited by Shismar, 03 December 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[old man odin]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 December 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

It never was a DPS weapon, FYI.

Perhaps not on it's own, but when combined with energy? Yeah. Of all the mid-range builds we had for Timbies the 2G/3ML had the highest DPS by a fair bit.

• Cookie cutter 1G/5ML was 50 alpha, 5.68 dps (now 5.09 dps)

• Our 2G/3ML was 51 alpha, 6.03 dps (now 5.52 dps)

• The more efficient cookie cutter laser vomit (2LPL/3ML) was 47 alpha, 5.17 dps (now 5.28 dps)

Even after the nerf it edges out the other two (and is affected less by laser nerfs). The truth is at this range mechs hit their heat threshold really quickly but the 2G/3ML just keeps on going. It ups sustained DPS hugely. Burst DPS is still the realm of other builds, but they rarely hold their own in the range bracket.

The other thing we noticed in all our testing was significantly less wasted damage. PPFLD, even when it's only 30/51 points of damage, just spreads much less. Compared to PPCs and IS AC's it was a lot easier to aim as well thanks to higher velocity.

Dimento Graven, on 03 December 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Anyone who uses gauss knows that taking a base 4.75 reload/recharge cycle and jumping it all the way up to a base 6.25 seconds reload/recharge cycle is absolutely excessive given ALL THE OTHER nerfs and restrictions already put in place over the years.

If you don't want to go through recordings, fine, but the onus was on you given you accused me of not playing it.

Also, a no true Scotsman argument? Fantastic. You're just another pubby from a trash tier unit crying because something got brought into line.

Tarogato, on 03 December 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Here is the 2Gauss/3Med EBJ: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...369a59e2a988dbf

Now, we translate the exact same build over to the Timber Wolf: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...925b1daac134e19

Just a heads up, the armor values aren't entirely accurate on these builds. Still gets the point across though.

Dimento Graven, on 03 December 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yes, effective as long as you don't have to brawl, or face another opponent who place a gauss round on your cockpit...

I repeat the statement about being a trash tier unit pubby. DPS is fantastic on it which is why we took it into brawls all the time. Here's one of a pure HPG basement rush, I'll see if Kami has the recording later. This is hardly an unusual occurrence either. I've got plenty of 1v1 brawls vs 5SS's and SPL/SRM Timbies as well with the 1v1 variant as well.

Edited by Odins Steed, 03 December 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

You are really selling me on that dual Gauss Timber Wolf right now. I should give it more of a chance.

[Scar Glamour]

Gauss needs longer reload instead of charge, which was silly from the start. If PGI are so worried about PPFLD combos with PPCs then add a rule that no other weapon can be fired concurrently with a Gauss (other than a second Gauss). Problem solved.