215 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Water Bear, on 04 December 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

Boo! Where are the strong personalities with ridiculously strong opinions about minor facets of video games?

Wrong thread, this one is about an IS mech...

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 December 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

I dunno, it's probably just me, but I feel the that "Like This" button should not be used without comment unless one really agrees with the entirety of that post or the action can be taken as complete support for everything in the "liked" post by outside viewers or the owner of the supported post. If you don't agree with the whole post, it gives unjustly earned popular support for a view in the face of its pointed deficiencies. If I were to like something without pointing out its flaws if it has them, it would feel irresponsible.

It's fair to say the "Like This" post doesn't always mean you agree 100% of the entire post. At best, more than 50% (realistically, you should be agreeing to 80% of a post) is what you can reasonably expect.

I hate the Like button in that sense... I wouldn't worry about it. I get what you're saying.

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You didn't write responses in the relevant conversation in that thread, IIRC, just kept hitting the "like" button on most of his responses. Fup is a good resource when you want to work within the current rules of MWO, but from my conversations he's not very flexible at bending those rules and he doesn't seem open to changing changing the CONOPS of MWO. It's like talking to a brick wall, sometimes. A polite one, but a brick-wall nonetheless. The good nature, though, is what I like about you. You are civil. Fup is civil. Andi is civil. McGral is mostly civil, but has tendencies for breaking down under pressure from people who are incapable or unwilling to put the effort into understand the concepts behind the game mechanics but insist on being part of the balance discussion. Bandito, too, is breaking down here and that's what triggered my response; because I've never seen him do that. Among us, it has always been civil but now he's being hostile or, at the very least, passive aggressive for no good reason....and it's not just this thread, it's in the Catalyst Locust thread, too. Bad day at work or something?

The best way to describe it is a form of apathy or disappointment. We've come to the point that no matter what is said, it doesn't matter... PGI isn't going to read/address it so there's not much we can do about it. If we have to resort to Twitter, it only emphasizes the terrible influence of "listening only via twitter" as we've come to expect from PGI.

I hope that better explains it.

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The three of you do also frequently speak in terms of hyperbole. Out of jaded frustration or knee-jerk passion doesn't matter. Yes, a lot of equipment in the game is sub-standard but, with the way you guys talk sometimes you'd think that it was nigh impossible to do well with it. While the equipment in question might be a far-cry from comp-worthy, it's also a far-cry from taking a veritable wizard to do well with it in pub games. I don't even qualify as an uber-leet player, nor do players like Bishop or Sarlic, and we can make and have been making sub-standard equipment work well enough that you would think we were running meta-builds. Balance in the game is awful and when talking about it you should always under the pretense of comp/computer precision because then balance there will trickle down to lower skill levels, but let's not also delude ourselves into thinking that the necessity for a weapon to be balanced at that level applies with the same weight down-low. If it did, then concepts like skill floor, skill ceiling, and derived risk-reward wouldn't exist in the first place.

I'd rather not resort to hyperbole, but considering that these days that it gets attention (and probably not in any productive way), it's mostly to draw discussion. Even columnists who try to be total contrarians to an issue go this route... and that's how the media today works. I don't entirely approve of it (it takes effort to filter through it) and just saying "balance overlord" doesn't change reality (outside of what I really feel).

I do spent time running SRMs, LBX, LRMs (good luck finding screenshots of that ), but not to the same degree as the a meta build for a non-meta mech. I could tell you a lot of the fun that comes with that, but I'd rather have things related to the relative "power level" of equipment addressed (I don't run MGs or Flamers in principle). Being objective about the Shadowcat (and other mediocre/terribad mechs) is only for wanting it to "suck less" and I don't think it's asking for the world honestly.

You'll still never convince me to use a Command Console... or SHS. Unless things get changed (like sub-250 engine Trudubs and a host of other things) on a gradual basis (noone is asking for them immediately), then it's hard to keep writing threads or posting info about things that PGI won't/don't care about. At some point... we might stop caring. When people stop caring about the game... well, I need not say more.

[AssaultPig]

shh stop talking before people notice the ridiculous buffs they gave the BJ-3

[Jazzbandit1313]

BJ-1X was one of my first mechs. 6 MLS range and cooldown modules for 'em. STND engine, AMS. SOOOO GOOOOD

[MischiefSC]

Hey, at least we can all agree that quirks are clearly the best way to balance the game.... right? We just need to 'do it the right way'.

Because it's not like we've had this exact same mother ******* argument a billion times about every single top and bottom mech for IS and Clans every single mother ******* day since quirking started, the only exception being when we had the concept of something other than quirks to balance mechs.... at which point we argued that we should just stay with quirks.

Because, again, clearly quirks are the best way to do it, right?

Oh, wait, no. Quirks are absolutely bug f**k insanely stupid as a balance approach which have never and will never, EVER actually balance the game. They provide us at best 1 (or if you're Clans as many as 3 heavies) variant (not even chassis, just variants) per weight class with 1 or 2 loadouts that works and everything else is varying degrees of ****.

The BJ-1X with an XL and MLs is the best IS medium by a huge stretch. That exact variant with that exact loadout, because thanks to quirks that exact variant and loadout isn't such absolute unmitigated SH** that you're not sandbagging your team by taking a medium mech which almost every single other IS medium is, exceptions given to the full on pimp strut rockstars who can make a Hunchie dance like this little girl.

Which is all still broke as ****. That's not 'balanced'. The BJ isn't 'balanced' with the Scrow or any other mech in the game. It just performs well with 1 specific loadout on 1 variant. That is the opposite of balance; that's breaking 1 specific build on 1 variant to offset other stuff being broken.

The whole quirk system is so broken and is such absolute unmitigated **** that we're going to know when it finally goes away because NKVA will show back up to post gifs of flushing toilets, because that is how you get rid of a huge steaming **** like quirking.

[Lugh]

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

You'll still never convince me to use a Command Console... or SHS. Unless things get changed (like sub-250 engine Trudubs and a host of other things) on a gradual basis (noone is asking for them immediately), then it's hard to keep writing threads or posting info about things that PGI won't/don't care about. At some point... we might stop caring. When people stop caring about the game... well, I need not say more.

It all needs to be TrueDubs. With a real heat scale and a hard heat cap set at 30 for both sides. With dispation that high you then have 4 clan ML that can be fired at once before you shut down...5 for instant shutdown. 7 safe fireing for ML fo IS and oh Lookee there...IS is suddenly way better at brawling... and you can restore clan range

Almost ALL of PGIs woes are directly attributable to the failure to convert math that works in to their own systems.

MischiefSC, on 04 December 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

Hey, at least we can all agree that quirks are clearly the best way to balance the game.... right? We just need to 'do it the right way'.

Because it's not like we've had this exact same mother ******* argument a billion times about every single top and bottom mech for IS and Clans every single mother ******* day since quirking started, the only exception being when we had the concept of something other than quirks to balance mechs.... at which point we argued that we should just stay with quirks.

Because, again, clearly quirks are the best way to do it, right?

Oh, wait, no. Quirks are absolutely bug f**k insanely stupid as a balance approach which have never and will never, EVER actually balance the game. They provide us at best 1 (or if you're Clans as many as 3 heavies) variant (not even chassis, just variants) per weight class with 1 or 2 loadouts that works and everything else is varying degrees of ****.

The BJ-1X with an XL and MLs is the best IS medium by a huge stretch. That exact variant with that exact loadout, because thanks to quirks that exact variant and loadout isn't such absolute unmitigated SH** that you're not sandbagging your team by taking a medium mech which almost every single other IS medium is, exceptions given to the full on pimp strut rockstars who can make a Hunchie dance like this little girl.

Which is all still broke as ****. That's not 'balanced'. The BJ isn't 'balanced' with the Scrow or any other mech in the game. It just performs well with 1 specific loadout on 1 variant. That is the opposite of balance; that's breaking 1 specific build on 1 variant to offset other stuff being broken.

The whole quirk system is so broken and is such absolute unmitigated **** that we're going to know when it finally goes away because NKVA will show back up to post gifs of flushing toilets, because that is how you get rid of a huge steaming **** like quirking.

If my hunchies danced like that I'd be complaining about graphics glitches ... She's quite good though.

[Dawnstealer]

Huh - 1X was always my favorite BJ, but I haven't run it for a long while. Your post has convinced me I should probably load it back up.

[Pjwned]

The mech is grossly OP because its quirks are absurd and that's because PGI accomplished essentially nothing as far as making quirks not ridiculous. The fact that an already fairly solid mech like the BJ-1X gets absurd structure quirks just shows how true this is.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pjwned, on 04 December 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

The mech is grossly OP because its quirks are absurd and that's because PGI accomplished essentially nothing as far as making quirks not ridiculous. The fact that an already fairly solid mech like the BJ-1X gets absurd structure quirks just shows how true this is.

I thought the majority would approve of reduction of weapon quirks (as of 12/4) with buffs to durability?

[El Bandito]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

The BJ can torso twist to spread damage away from the side torso. Some other mechs like the stalker though, cant.

Cause the Stalker does not have to torso twist to spread damage, it only has to wiggle.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 December 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

I thought the majority would approve of reduction of weapon quirks (as of 12/4) with buffs to durability?

Actually the majority prefer weapon quirks over structure quirks on a fast skirmisher like the BJ-1X. I had no issue with survivability pre-Dec 1 patch in CW with my BJ-1X cause of its high mounts. The structure quirks IMO were not worth the laser duration removal and energy range and heat reduction nerfs.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 December 2015 - 05:36 PM.

[Pjwned]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 December 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

I thought the majority would approve of reduction of weapon quirks (as of 12/4) with buffs to durability?

It's a small improvement over the obviously completely out of line weapon quirks, and only the most absurd quirks were toned down with many quirks on many mechs still being too good; that doesn't mean quirks are good overall.

Did these results actually address a damn thing about quirks heading in the wrong direction? No, not at all, it just shifted the absurd weapon quirks into absurd quirks elsewhere.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 December 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[Deathlike]

As long as PGI is doing awful scaling, quirks are going to be required to get some mechs to stay upright with high firepower uptime.

There will also be mechs that have terrible hardpoint placement (Vindicator-1X, Spider-5V, etc.), and you're going have to pull some sort of mechlab miracle to make it "usable" (as in, good enough to not completely suck). Quirks will be a necessary requirement, regardless of what you'd prefer.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 December 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[wanderer]

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

Stalkers were never meant to mount PPCs in the first place. It was Awesome's job.

Well, till you get to the 7D, which is ERPPC/MPL/Streak-4's.

[Pjwned]

Deathlike, on 05 December 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

As long as PGI is doing awful scaling, quirks are going to be required to get some mechs to stay upright with high firepower uptime.

There will also be mechs that have terrible hardpoint placement (Vindicator-1X, Spider-5V, etc.), and you're going have to pull some sort of mechlab miracle to make it "usable" (as in, good enough to not completely suck). Quirks will be a necessary requirement, regardless of what you'd prefer.

Quirks are fine as a concept, but in practice they are just applied haphazardly as band-aid fixes and they're still overall trash even after all of PGI's "effort" in re-balancing them.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 05 December 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

As long as PGI is doing awful scaling, quirks are going to be required to get some mechs to stay upright with high firepower uptime.

There will also be mechs that have terrible hardpoint placement (Vindicator-1X, Spider-5V, etc.), and you're going have to pull some sort of mechlab miracle to make it "usable" (as in, good enough to not completely suck). Quirks will be a necessary requirement, regardless of what you'd prefer.

Or.... adjust hardpoint numbers? How about....

another balancing mechanic?

Admittedly at this point PGI should just hire Peter Molyneux to head the balance decisions of MW:O. He's got a better track record for making intelligent game development decisions and following through on them in a timely manner.

[Deathlike]

Pjwned, on 05 December 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

Quirks are fine as a concept, but in practice they are just applied haphazardly as band-aid fixes and they're still overall trash even after all of PGI's "effort" in re-balancing them.

Welcome to MWO.

MischiefSC, on 05 December 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

Or.... adjust hardpoint numbers? How about....

another balancing mechanic?

Admittedly at this point PGI should just hire Peter Molyneux to head the balance decisions of MW:O. He's got a better track record for making intelligent game development decisions and following through on them in a timely manner.

Lostech.

[Duke Nedo]

Pjwned, on 05 December 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement over the obviously completely out of line weapon quirks, and only the most absurd quirks were toned down with many quirks on many mechs still being too good; that doesn't mean quirks are good overall.

Did these results actually address a damn thing about quirks heading in the wrong direction? No, not at all, it just shifted the absurd weapon quirks into absurd quirks elsewhere.

Of course, because PGI choose not to address XL engine balance or weapon balance you have the choice between absurd weapon quirks and absurd durability quirks or a combination. Pick your poison... by now I think it's pretty clear that PGI will not balance the techs so this is what we got to work with.

[Jman5]

El Bandito, on 04 December 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Actually the majority prefer weapon quirks over structure quirks on a fast skirmisher like the BJ-1X. I had no issue with survivability pre-Dec 1 patch in CW with my BJ-1X cause of its high mounts. The structure quirks IMO were not worth the laser duration removal and energy range and heat reduction nerfs.

I can't speak for the majority, but I would much rather see IS get nice Structure quirks all around then all these weapon quirks that seem to be pretty hit or miss and need to be constantly tweaked higher or lower.

[Xoco]

I don't know if it is OP or not, but it certainly is one of the stronger mechs. It's small(ish), which means it usually doesn't attract too much attention. It packs INSANE armament, with excellent weapon positioning (high mount on a small mech). It has good arm angle, very good torso rotation.

The only mech I regularly score better than my 1X are clan mechs...

So yeah, very strong, especially by IS standard. But definitely not stronger than equivalent clanners.

[Vxheous]

Xoco, on 06 December 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

I don't know if it is OP or not, but it certainly is one of the stronger mechs. It's small(ish), which means it usually doesn't attract too much attention. It packs INSANE armament, with excellent weapon positioning (high mount on a small mech). It has good arm angle, very good torso rotation.

The only mech I regularly score better than my 1X are clan mechs...

So yeah, very strong, especially by IS standard. But definitely not stronger than equivalent clanners.

The structure quirks made it have the durability of a 70T mech. This is really evident especially in CW when say both sides have used up tonnage in the first two waves, and now the lighter weight mechs are starting to take the field. The weapon quirks were never the problem.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 06 December 2015 - 01:54 AM.