18 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Hello all!

I have already posted my initial thoughts regarding gameplay, balance, and overall state of the game for pub drops and the game outside of CW, but I hadn't had the chance to do any CW drops. Now that I have, I wanted to post that feedback as well. Keep in mind, this is MY opinion (unless I specifically state factual stats or numbers and such) and everyone will have their own personal experience.

I went on a marathon run yesterday and managed to get a good solid 6-7 hours in CW drops. I didn't rack the specific number but I would estimate I got in about 20-25 drops and earned about 8 million cbills. I know these results will be a little skewed due the tournament going on, but this is still my initial impressions.

First and foremost, the wait times were excellent. No matter what size group the drop time from hitting launch and being in our lobby never exceeded 2-3 minutes and rarely exceeded 1 minute. I know the pool is larger than normal so I imagine during "normal operating hours" that this can be a mixed bag so I won't put a whole lot of stock into this one yet.

I dropped in a PUG group with other Marik buddies on our TS server ranging in size from 3-12 (with multiple drops in just about every size imaginable) My unit in RMA has always been a bunch of PUGs for the most part. We get together and play with whoever is on at the moment and/or drop solo so we're by no means a "well oiled" fighting machine when it comes to groups. We do alright and win a bit more than we lose most times. We had a constant turn over of players in our PUG group throughout the night so we almost always had "new" players join the group (even some first time CW players) and drop with us for a few drops before having to head out.

With that said, we all had a blast. I can count on one hand (and still have some fingers left over) the number of times we felt like we got "stomped" even when running into those dreaded "competitive 12man" groups. Overall it was a slew of close games that was often decided at the last minute. We steamrolled a few teams here and there, but they were far and few between. The "sweet spot" didn't hit until PGI bumped the drop decks back to 250 honestly. Once this happened our win rate seemed to increase a bit and even out and the games got a lot more competitive overall.

The games themselves seemed fairly balanced. There were a few what I would call "issues" when it comes to balance though. One being the ability for a team to bring nothing but a single mech for the drop. Sorry guys, the whole "Cheetah rush" is nothing but cheese to me and completely defeats the entire premise and purpose of drop decks and what CW is designed to do. The easiest way I can see to fix this would be to not allow more than xx number of chassis to be used in a single wave. The would prevent stuff like this completely and encourage people to build more diverse drop decks. There's absolutely no argument that anyone can make that will convince me a team comprised of the exact same mech and nearly the exact same loadout 12 times over is within the spirit of the rules and CW. It's cheesy and it's munchy, end of story.

The balance within CW as far as Clan vs. IS really seems excellent. Other than a few drops involving the cheesy stuff mentioned above I saw a wide range of mechs fielded for both sides. Really good diversities in everything from mech selection to weapon loadout. It really was a great time in this regard. It seems like PGI has found a pretty good balance spot for this in CW.
My deck consisted of Stalker, Mad, Crab, Spider and I never felt I was "outclassed" in any of those mechs. (Before you even start, this isn't about individual mech balance and we're not going to entertain "best" mech and "good" build theorycrafting, this isn't a mech building thread, I simply wanted to give full disclosure on my drop deck).

Overall I'm really pleased with CW at the moment. It was fun, engaging, and challenging. I will say this, there are a few of you out there that quite simply can't accept that you got outplayed, outsmarted, etc. and want to instead blame PGI, balance, mechs, game mode, etc. Keep on keepin on, but until you realize that's not why you lost, you're going to continue losing. When our group "settled down" yesterday and we had a core group of players and a drop leader giving guidance, we did REALLY well, even in 12man drops. We went on a 6 game win streak at one point! We even beat a couple of those "competitive" 12mans! Good times. Even the games we lost (especially those to 12mans) were close and most times we knew exactly what we did wrong and how we could have turned it into a victory instead.

I heard a lot of "clan brawling" uhm..... "QQ" last night as well. Let me explain somethign right quick.
"Stick together" doesn't mean stand on top of one another in a circle this size"o". 200 meters away from the enemy and hope you can murderball them. The teams that did that went down fairly quickly most times. The ones that actually split up lances, coordinated strategies, and didn't just glob up and charge all did really well regardless of ranges and builds. The teams that didn't... well they were usually the ones complaining about "balance" and such. I will say this, if you are an IS pilot, clans do not like it when you get right up in their face. It's not that they can't brawl, it's more like they've forgotten how honestly. It seems like they've gotten so used to that huge range advantage that they forget what to do once a mech is under 200 meters and closing fast. They panic and break their lines most times. This even goes for those competitive 12mans.

One drop in particular (I think it was sulfur), we took our first wave in and made the mistake of doing the old "go left after getting in the gate" tactic and got pretty well shredded. SO the next wave after reviewing what happened, we pushed right up on them and broke completely through. Same with 3rd and 4th waves. Due to getting shredded in that first wave we couldn't pull off the win, but even that game was a lot closer than it should have been after that first wave.

TL;DR
I'm thoroughly enjoying CW and think PGI has found a pretty good balance spot with a few exceptions here and there. We had a blast as a PUG group and very rarely felt "outclassed" by opponents, even the 12mans.

[Sandpit]

I wanted to make sure and add one caveat, the games got a LOT more competitive overall once the drop decks were raised back to 250 (although I personally still sit at 240), the extra 10 tons allowed many others to drop in a different mech many times that they were personally much better suited to play in.

[Lily from animove]

Nice summary,

but 2 things

if you have 12 people on the same ts you are not a PUG anymore. How many people describe non pugs still as pugs bothers me sometimes.

and I still disagree with balance between IS and clan being good, it is just a handfull of clanchassis being balanced vs a hand full of IS chassis. Thats not balance. Not for me at least.

[man du]

Lily from animove, on 05 December 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Nice summary,

but 2 things

if you have 12 people on the same ts you are not a PUG anymore. How many people describe non pugs still as pugs bothers me sometimes.

I disagree.

Pickup Group; used commonly in WoW and other MMORPGs. Basically means a group that isn't formed by people you know; instead, it's formed up of random, possible noobs that will completely wreck whatever experience you are getting the group for.

Being in a PuG has nothing to do with being in TS. It has to do with the people themselves. Twelve strangers all using VOIP to best premades or unorganized groups is the same thing. They're just communicating effectively.

Where a premade group will have the advantage over a PuG (strangers getting together) is the experience of playing with each other, developing tactics, knowing the actions and reactions of teammates and discipline that comes from training together.

Edited by manduclese, 05 December 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Sandpit]

Lily from animove, on 05 December 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Nice summary,

but 2 things

if you have 12 people on the same ts you are not a PUG anymore. How many people describe non pugs still as pugs bothers me sometimes.

and I still disagree with balance between IS and clan being good, it is just a handfull of clanchassis being balanced vs a hand full of IS chassis. Thats not balance. Not for me at least.

yes you are
PUG = Pick Up Group
That means you pick up random guys who want to drop. We aren't a dedicated 12man that practices together and such. We're random guys on the Marik TS server just like on the public TS servers. We pick up random guys that want to drop with us. It's a common misconception (and the whole "premade boogeyman" propaganda from way back when) that if you're in a premade group you're automatically some sort of "elite competitive" team. That's simply not true.

As for the rest, I don't agree, but I understand everyone is going to have their own personal opinion and experience in this case. Even though I had fairly even and competitive games, I've had those runs where we couldn't win if we had a 12v6 advantage it seems lol

Those were just my experiences from last night. The stomps (for either side) were rare but they did occur a few times. They just weren't often and definitely didn't run into any "stomp streaks".

[Sandpit]

http://mwomercs.com/...26#entry4858526

Here are some idea I posted in another thread. I'm going to do up a more detailed version for this thread though

[Mycrus]

Hey sandpit, gone are the days when marik ran 12 mans at all hours (even oceanic)... i hope the next iteration of CW is good enough to bring interest back...

Remember Wazan!

[Mystere]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

There were a few what I would call "issues" when it comes to balance though. One being the ability for a team to bring nothing but a single mech for the drop. Sorry guys, the whole "Cheetah rush" is nothing but cheese to me and completely defeats the entire premise and purpose of drop decks and what CW is designed to do. The easiest way I can see to fix this would be to not allow more than xx number of chassis to be used in a single wave. The would prevent stuff like this completely and encourage people to build more diverse drop decks. There's absolutely no argument that anyone can make that will convince me a team comprised of the exact same mech and nearly the exact same loadout 12 times over is within the spirit of the rules and CW. It's cheesy and it's munchy, end of story.

I don't understand why this is a problem. That is one of the benefits of being an organized team. It parallels armies that over the centuries have standardized their make up and benefited immensely from it. The best example is the standardization of the Roman legions as part of the Marian reforms.

Edited by Mystere, 06 December 2015 - 04:42 PM.

[Sandpit]

Mystere, on 06 December 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

I don't understand why this is a problem. That is one of the benefits of being an organized team. It parallels armies that over the centuries have standardized their make up and benefited immensely from it. The best example is the standardization of the Roman legions as part of the Marian reforms.

It's against the spirit of the rules and game. No set of rules can ever combat any and all exploiters. It simply can't. They can do their best to mitigate and minimize that, but will never eradicate it. There will always be that select few whose idea of fun is winning at all costs. That's never the majority of players though so the majority of players just truck along past those types of players and have fun in 90% of their other matches.

It's cheesy, it's ridiculous, it's munchy, but it's perfectly legal and viable by the letter of the law so it's ok to do and I don't hold anything against those who do it. I'm not going to pat you on the back and say "good job" though because to me, all you really do with all that min/max stuff is figure out how to take the easiest path to victory which, after a while, tends to be far too tedious, stagnant, and boring to be much fun for most of the players, so kudos to you for that I guess if it makes you feel better? lol

If that's fun for you, go for it. It's not for me though and it defeats the whole purpose of fun for me. I win a smidge more than I lose usually and Kill a smidge more than I die usually. Having good tactical engagements that are won and lost after prolonged engagements are the most fun for me. I play the games with guys who do the stuff like cheetah rush, fight it off and beat it or lose to it and move on to the next game because spending 10 minutes rushing through mechs while another team does nothing but min/max type stuff isn't much fun to me. I don't QQ about it because it's not "op" or anything else (although cheetahs do need some nerfing in my opinion but that's a completely different topic), but it's not much fun to play or play against for me. If that's your cup of tea, more power to ya. Have fun. You're not ruining it for me though. You're just making for dull and boring matches.

When I see those units and players I know run that, I shrug and wish them gl&gh and then gg regardless of outcome and move on to the next game where me and my buddies can have some fun with matches that just involve a lot more tactics and strategy.

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

And now we have 265t for IS which gives you a full four TDR drop and IS players use it. Why they do this? Because they see the best way to win with this. Its the same pain in the a*** as 12 ACH's.

I don't like it, too. I didn't like it with 3 TDRs eather. But what does a Clanner know...

EDIT: and your topic is CW related, therefor should be posted in the CW section of this Forums.

Edited by Jae Hyun Nakamura, 23 December 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[Sandpit]

Jae Hyun Nakamura, on 23 December 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

And now we have 265t for IS which gives you a full four TDR drop and IS players use it. Why they do this? Because they see the best way to win with this. Its the same pain in the a*** as 12 ACH's.

I don't like it, too. I didn't like it with 3 TDRs eather. But what does a Clanner know...

EDIT: and your topic is CW related, therefor should be posted in the CW section of this Forums.

yes because that's exactly what my drop deck looks like.
try again,. read the post above yours.

[Aresye]

12 STK-4Ns/ERLL TDR-5SSs on Boreal
12 ACH Rushes (Formerly 12 FS-9 Rushes)

These aren't simulations of effective army strategies that add depth or immersion to the game that make it feel more like a grand battle.

These are glaring, in your face balance issues.

Groups wouldn't be doing these regularly if there wasn't an issue with them.

[Nightmare1]

Holy wall of text, Batman!

[Sandpit]

Nightmare1, on 23 December 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

Holy wall of text, Batman!

I'm sorry I leave more than "this sucks" as feedback and expect PGI or the community to have any idea on what I'm talking about

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

Read again....jop, still CW related and in the wrong section.

Don't get me wrong, i'm with you on balance. It's better than ever before. And yes, there will always be the groups and players exployting a legal system to the max. I do it in RL,too. Every year while declairing my taxes i exploit our tax system to the max. It's in our nature to use what is best for us.

But this ACHs/FS-9s 12 man is something i haven't seen in a long time and i think it's not worth to mention. Light rushes are not the best way to win. And still i have one in my deck, too. Why? Because it's the only way for me to field a Dire.

And since the buffs to tonnage diversity increased i think. We see Quicks, Banshees, Atlas, Cataphracts on IS side and Kitfoxes, Shadowcats and Warhawks on the Clan side.

Your post is all in all positive and i like it. And yes, some mechs are still unbalanced imo, too. (Especially "all" light mechs that dont die from a double AC20 shot)

Devs are still working and there are new things to come, so i dont loose my hope.

Still...CW related for CW section ;p

[Nightmare1]

Sandpit, on 23 December 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

I'm sorry I leave more than "this sucks" as feedback and expect PGI or the community to have any idea on what I'm talking about

*Chuckle* Most of your posts I've read are short, so I was a bit surprised by this one. Sorry!

[Sandpit]

Nightmare1, on 24 December 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

*Chuckle* Most of your posts I've read are short, so I was a bit surprised by this one. Sorry!

lol This is a topic I started though, big difference in that and a post.

Look guys, I'm just trying to get some good constructive feedback going on how to improve CW. That means I want your ideas here too. Even if they're completely different and/or disagree with mine. That's how it works. We see the ideas from others, we refine, we find even ground that makes more happy than unhappy and once we have a really refined idea, we pester PGI about it (politely) in a constructive way until they realize that it's more than just a small handful of people that like the idea.

I firmly believe that this is where things started going REALLY wrong in the community. Those people that have some really good ideas and suggestions got cynical and apathetic, then they stopped posting idea and just started listing complaints instead.
Meanwhile, as we started getting a "new crowd" of players from moving into OB, the newer players were more vocal, we started seeing easy twtich gameplay mechanics constantly employed to make it more accessible to that style of gameplay.

You can call me elitist or whatever, but the true bottom line is, this game is heavily supported by that "oldschool" Battletech crowd. Those players are filtering back in to check out the changes.

I watch the forums and threads even if I'm not commenting on something. The community complains that PGI doesn't listen, which they do. The community complains that PGI doesn't listen, but then very literally posts threads that completely contradict one another on the front page.

If you really want PGI to "listen" and get more involved in threads, it's on you. It's on the community. Stop feeding troll threads. Stop keeping silly off-topic click bait on top of the front page. Stop leaving "feedback" that consists of "this sucks".

The community is just as much to blame with the crappy communication to PGI as PGI is to blame with the crappy communication with us at times. Relay your ideas in relevant threads. Be detailed, be specific. Dont' get indignant and rage because someone doesn't agree with you or like your idea.

CW is in a good spot based on what I've seen for Phase 3. It's not going to fix the issues I've laid out in my posts and threads regarding CW though. It's going to make it deeper and much more involved, which it desperately needs, but it's not going to solve queue issues, new player issues, affording a decent drop deck, etc.

NPE:
New players should not be able to jump into CW until after they complete cadet bonus period. The cadet bonus period should be extended to 50 matches and the bonus increased to afford a decent drop deck. They should have their own queue outside of the PSR system. Upon graduation they then start in Tier 5. The gates CW, doesn't prevent anyone who wants to participate form participating, and prevents completely new players from bumbling into a REALLY competitive section of the game before they're ready.

CW:
Phase 3 is fantastic. As I stated earlier it doesn't solve the real underlying issues with CW. Until those are addressed no amount of depth is going to help. Queues are too long for any kind of real casual player. Figuring out how to read the IS map, the drop menu (all those circles and colored bars anyone?), picking a planet to attack or defend even with the notices that pop up (which is bad, they should only pop up if you're in the Faction Warfare section), and understanding that it won't launch until 12 are there.
Ghost drops
Live drops
All of this stuff sets up some pretty big barriers to actually enjoying CW if you don't know all of the information already.

The queue times. I've explained ow to solve all of this VERY easily. PGI simply runs CW as a season, holds monthly tournaments or events like they did for Battle of Tuk, recreating big battles in the lore timeline just like with Tuk. At the end of the season IS plays against clan for Tuk, winner plays PGI for terra, end of season, take a week off, start the next season.
That's the first change that would increase real interest in CW.

PGI needs to control the map. Just like ANY GM in any game like this, PGI needs to run a campaign. I know that sounds like a lot of work, but really it isn't. THe only thing they have to do is control the attack and defend avenues for the map. Tell the story of the war, shift alliances and betrayals in the Inner Sphere and Clans as needed to help balance the map out and keep smaller units and solo players from getting rolled up into a corner where they feel like there's no point in them even playing anymore. Drop in some lines of fluff "Davion and Steiner agree to a ceasefire in lieu of this clan invasion". Stuff like that, it's easy, it's quick, it requires no extra coding, and it solves every queue issue and unit size issue in CW.

Finally, change the name of CW to Inner Sphere War. The minute you use the word war you incite ideas of huge battles and warfare. Inner Sphere lets them know it's across the entire galaxy. Your Btech customers and Btech fans will immediately know what it is and check it out.

That's all; you really need to do to "fix" most of the issues in CW. It solves almost every issue I can think of and does so without requiring PGI to rework any coding, add new features (well except the NPE queue which is separate from CW), and it completely eliminates the ability for large units to roll small units up.

[Odinvolk]

Yes it is very balanced. Which is why some clans have 1 planet left. LOOK AT THE CW MAP FFS.

[Sandpit]

Odinvolk, on 24 December 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Yes it is very balanced. Which is why some clans have 1 planet left. LOOK AT THE CW MAP FFS.

instead of leaving one line of "feedback" why don't you bother reading the post right above yours that presents ideas on how to fix that?