49 replies to this topic

[Hawk_eye]

I thought about putting this in "New Players Help", but then decided to post it here.

Ok, not a sparkling brand new player anymore, but one with a couple of weeks of play and something has been bothering me for a while now.

So we get to play on Caustic or Terra or Alpine.
The moment we drop, everyone rushes the center of the map.

I get, that this is a tactically strong position and if we are in Skirmish mode, fine, the objective is to kill the enemy and we try to get there, with the most, first.
That´s sound tactic.

But in Assault?

There is absolutely nothing of strategic value up there.
In Assault, there are exactly TWO objectives, our base and the enemy´s base.

Why don´t we either defend our base in strength and let the enemy come to us - or go in force for the enemy base ourselves.

Is there some rule that we _have_ to go up there, no matter the game mode?
Has experience shown, that whoever holds the center, wins, even if his base is undefended?

I don´t know, it just doesn´t make sense to me.

[FupDup]

It's the Pug Overmind™ pulling the strings behind the curtain.

Pugs are naturally attracted to blue and red doritos, and will gravitate in that direction as such. Thus, as more doritos congregate to a single area, the more powerful the "pull" effect becomes. It's a snowball effect, basically. This is also why ECM is so stronk in pug matches: Because it removes the red doritos that pugs crave so much.

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[Triordinant]

Antecursor Venatus, on 06 December 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

I thought about putting this in "New Players Help", but then decided to post it here.

Ok, not a sparkling brand new player anymore, but one with a couple of weeks of play and something has been bothering me for a while now.

So we get to play on Caustic or Terra or Alpine.
The moment we drop, everyone rushes the center of the map.

I get, that this is a tactically strong position and if we are in Skirmish mode, fine, the objective is to kill the enemy and we try to get there, with the most, first.
That´s sound tactic.

But in Assault?

There is absolutely nothing of strategic value up there.
In Assault, there are exactly TWO objectives, our base and the enemy´s base.

Why don´t we either defend our base in strength and let the enemy come to us - or go in force for the enemy base ourselves.

Is there some rule that we _have_ to go up there, no matter the game mode?
Has experience shown, that whoever holds the center, wins, even if his base is undefended?

I don´t know, it just doesn´t make sense to me.

Ever since they introduced map/mode voting you now have a lot of players playing Assault who absolutely hate it and prefer Skirmish all the time, so they just play it like it was Skirmish.

Edit: I'm not one of them. I haven't patched MWO since map/mode voting was introduced.

Edited by Triordinant, 06 December 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[Bushmaster0]

because actual tactics and tactical movement require thought, and most people don't want to think when playing MW:O..they just want to pew pew

[sycocys]

Bushmaster0, on 06 December 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

because actual tactics and tactical movement require thought, and most people don't want to think when playing MW:O..they just want to pew pew

This is 90% of the problem.

And its also why when players drop in the modes that step up the challenge of levels of coordination the fail miserably and think everything they don't do is OP and broken.

[Wintersdark]

I'll be boring, and actually answer the question legitimately.

In pub matches, you need a default strategy that at least has a moderate chance of victory. Without one, everyone is just doing their own thing, and you lose. Rushing center - if you take the center - is a decent strategy because from there, you can move in any direction and as such it's easier to catch stragglers on the opposing team; strike with the whole weight of your team on a portion of the enemy team. There are lots of other strategies, but in order for them to work you need an active drop commander that can herd the cats into his new strategy, whereas the default can work without a drop commander at all.

So, in a nutshell:

1) It's direct: you either meet the enemy team right away and get to the fighting, or you take the center and can strike out whereever suits you best
2) It's simple, and works without someone commanding
3) Everyone knows to do it.


This applies to every map. Default strategies form, because they allow an even match against someone else employing a given strategy and a certain victory against an unorganized team.

Default strategies tend to only be replaced if there is another strategy that beats the default reliably; because this leads to more and more people adopting to new strategy to beat both unorganized teams AND those using the old default. Thus, the new strategy tends to become the new default fairly quickly.... and we're back to the beginning, with a default strategy.

And there you have it. The answer, without insulting anyone.

[Wintersdark]

Bushmaster0, on 06 December 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

because actual tactics and tactical movement require thought, and most people don't want to think when playing MW:O..they just want to pew pew

This is incorrect, but tempting to believe.

Actual tactics and tactical movement require thought, but more importantly require coordination. It's the lack of coordination that dooms pugs trying things like that - it's too hard to educate 11 random people who may have no idea what you're talking about and to convince them all that what you're suggesting should be done at all.

In the solo pugs I play, I frequently see players suggest complex tactics. Ones that, if executed by a group that plays together frequently and has builds that in any way work together would work out well. But when you've got 12 players who all assume something different is going on (and remember: Why should they drop what they're doing and do what some random moron (you think this when someone else suggests something wierd, they think it when you suggest something wierd) thinks they should do) more complex tactics pretty much ensure the team's already fragile coordination and group understanding will completely fail.

[Roughneck45]

Antecursor Venatus, on 06 December 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

Has experience shown, that whoever holds the center, wins, even if his base is undefended?

I'd say yes.

IMO its the strongest position on the map. Not necessarily to fight in, but if the enemy doesn't challenge for it you can have cover and LOS to just about everywhere else on the map.

The bases themselves are hard to defend as well. Not great cover, the one has that refinery but its all lower terrain, easily sniped into from the slope around center. The other just has incredibly steep hills which aren't great to fight from either.

Edited by Roughneck45, 06 December 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I'll be boring, and actually answer the question legitimately.

In pub matches, you need a default strategy that at least has a moderate chance of victory. Without one, everyone is just doing their own thing, and you lose. Rushing center - if you take the center - is a decent strategy because from there, you can move in any direction and as such it's easier to catch stragglers on the opposing team; strike with the whole weight of your team on a portion of the enemy team. There are lots of other strategies, but in order for them to work you need an active drop commander that can herd the cats into his new strategy, whereas the default can work without a drop commander at all.

So, in a nutshell:

1) It's direct: you either meet the enemy team right away and get to the fighting, or you take the center and can strike out whereever suits you best
2) It's simple, and works without someone commanding
3) Everyone knows to do it.


This applies to every map. Default strategies form, because they allow an even match against someone else employing a given strategy and a certain victory against an unorganized team.

Default strategies tend to only be replaced if there is another strategy that beats the default reliably; because this leads to more and more people adopting to new strategy to beat both unorganized teams AND those using the old default. Thus, the new strategy tends to become the new default fairly quickly.... and we're back to the beginning, with a default strategy.

And there you have it. The answer, without insulting anyone.

+1 for being a good example of how to actually talk about a game

[Bushmaster0]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

This is incorrect, but tempting to believe.

Actual tactics and tactical movement require thought, but more importantly require coordination. It's the lack of coordination that dooms pugs trying things like that - it's too hard to educate 11 random people who may have no idea what you're talking about and to convince them all that what you're suggesting should be done at all.

In the solo pugs I play, I frequently see players suggest complex tactics. Ones that, if executed by a group that plays together frequently and has builds that in any way work together would work out well. But when you've got 12 players who all assume something different is going on (and remember: Why should they drop what they're doing and do what some random moron (you think this when someone else suggests something wierd, they think it when you suggest something wierd) thinks they should do) more complex tactics pretty much ensure the team's already fragile coordination and group understanding will completely fail.

it doesn't take much thought, nor is it complex when someone suggests in chat "go to "Xn" grid and half the team ignores that and simply rushes center

[Signal27]

Frankly I think it's just some subconscious "gentleman's agreement" everybody has to meet in some general area in the map so we can start the fun of blowing each other away much sooner.

[Wintersdark]

Bushmaster0, on 06 December 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

it doesn't take much thought, nor is it complex when someone suggests in chat "go to "Xn" grid and half the team ignores that and simply rushes center

Because they were already doing that. See the "Default Strategy" above. You need more than just "go to <this grid location>" in chat to get everyone doing something else. This is where VOIP is useful, or some way to get everyone's attention.

See: My "moron" comment above. As someone playing in that match, you are a "stupid pug". You think they are all stupid pugs, they think you are a stupid pug. The mentality is clear through this whole thread - people always assume they're a great player, and all those in the match with them are morons. What you think of them is what they think of you, and it's as basically as likely as not that they're as good as you are, and every bit as smart as you are.

Not to say you can't do something different, but if you're going to suggest something different you need to do it with a little more "oomph": You need to suggest the overall goal as well as the direction (if it differs from the default strategy significantly). "Go left, instead of right; we're too slow to play NASCAR, and can set up a firing line in grid X to crush their lead elements" rather than just "Go left". Let the people know that you've put some thought into it.

Don't get me wrong: I'm a strong believer in "A bad plan is better than no plan", because coordination wins games in the solo queue. Still, I've seen a LOT of (what appeared to me to be) genuinely stupid plans. But you need to remember that all those other players in that match? They're just like you, but all functioning from different available information.

Signal27, on 06 December 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Frankly I think it's just some subconscious "gentleman's agreement" everybody has to meet in some general area in the map so we can start the fun of blowing each other away much sooner.

See point #1 in my post above

[AnimeFreak40K]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I'll be boring, and actually answer the question legitimately.

It's not boring if it's true. Though I'll admit the bit about the 'PUG Overmind' and the endless quest for Red Doritos got a good giggle out of me.

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

So, in a nutshell: 1) It's direct: you either meet the enemy team right away and get to the fighting, or you take the center and can strike out whereever suits you best 2) It's simple, and works without someone commanding 3) Everyone knows to do it.

This breakdown pretty much strikes me as the 'Occam's Razor' view on the matter; what is simplest works.

And to be clear, a simple strategy doesn't mean it's bad. Far from it, the more complex you make things, the more points of failure you're going to have. And besides, if you are employing a tactic that is works, why change it to something that may not?

At least that's how I see it anyway.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

"Rush Mid" is what you hear in low tier CSGO play. You start hearing other calls the moment you get out of the basement tiers. By the time you get high level you start pulling some crazy moves.

Maybe when MWO moves to Steam we'll see if CSGO mentalities translate to MWO.

Edited by Dakota1000, 06 December 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Bushmaster0]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Because they were already doing that. See the "Default Strategy" above. You need more than just "go to <this grid location>" in chat to get everyone doing something else. This is where VOIP is useful, or some way to get everyone's attention.

See: My "moron" comment above. As someone playing in that match, you are a "stupid pug". You think they are all stupid pugs, they think you are a stupid pug. The mentality is clear through this whole thread - people always assume they're a great player, and all those in the match with them are morons. What you think of them is what they think of you, and it's as basically as likely as not that they're as good as you are, and every bit as smart as you are.

Not to say you can't do something different, but if you're going to suggest something different you need to do it with a little more "oomph": You need to suggest the overall goal as well as the direction (if it differs from the default strategy significantly). "Go left, instead of right; we're too slow to play NASCAR, and can set up a firing line in grid X to crush their lead elements" rather than just "Go left". Let the people know that you've put some thought into it.

Don't get me wrong: I'm a strong believer in "A bad plan is better than no plan", because coordination wins games in the solo queue. Still, I've seen a LOT of (what appeared to me to be) genuinely stupid plans. But you need to remember that all those other players in that match? They're just like you, but all functioning from different available information.


See point #1 in my post above

even when you do that, half the team will still ignore it and rush center...or simply stand back and watch...

even things like "assaults spawned on the left, form up on them" goees unheeded about 90% of the time...and there is nothing difficult or complex about that

Edited by Bushmaster0, 06 December 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Bushmaster0, on 06 December 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

even when you do that, half the team will still ignore it and rush center...or simply stand back and watch...

even things like "assaults spawned on the left, form up on them" goees unheeded about 90% of the time...and there is nothing difficult or complex about that

Yeah, it happens. Default strategies get really ingrained, and people get used to doing a particular thing. It's reinforced, because when someone suggests something different, and the team splits with half doing the default, and half doing something else, you inevitably lose, then whatever that is gets a mental tick with "Well, that was a failed strategy" even though it failed not because it was bad but because it wasn't executed properly.

That's where a lot of people tend to just do the default anyways, assuming everyone else will too. Frustrating, I know, but thems the breaks with regards to pugs and coordination - rather, the lack thereof.

It's not always the case, though. I've had lots of solo queue matches where people did follow directions too; it's a mix of luck and the would-be commander's charisma.

[DaZur]

Shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Any expectation or inference of tactical Manuvering in PUG is a act of futility.

This is not a denigration of PUGs but more so a affirmation of a lack of leadership or cohesion in PUG play.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 06 December 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

It's the Pug Overmind™ pulling the strings behind the curtain.

Pugs are naturally attracted to blue and red doritos, and will gravitate in that direction as such. Thus, as more doritos congregate to a single area, the more powerful the "pull" effect becomes. It's a snowball effect, basically. This is also why ECM is so stronk in pug matches: Because it removes the red doritos that pugs crave so much.

Often, the pool of doritos reaches critical mass and explodes, sending said doritos to various corners of the map where they collide with the larger but still sub-critical mass of anti-doritos and are annihilated into a puff of fundamental cheese powder particles.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

FupDup, on 06 December 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

It's the Pug Overmind™ pulling the strings behind the curtain.

Pugs are naturally attracted to blue and red doritos, and will gravitate in that direction as such. Thus, as more doritos congregate to a single area, the more powerful the "pull" effect becomes. It's a snowball effect, basically. This is also why ECM is so stronk in pug matches: Because it removes the red doritos that pugs crave so much.

Cool ranch must always defeat habanero cheddar for the good of all mankind!

[FupDup]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 06 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Cool ranch must always defeat habanero cheddar for the good of all mankind!

The red doritos are actually Nacho Cheese.