35 replies to this topic

[Wales Grey]

It should be 12 v 5 imo, make it "Accurate" to "Battletech Canon".

additionally, only div 1 players should be allowed to operate clan mechs

and a clan pilot who shoots more than one target at a time auto-ejects

[Karl Streiger]

Wales Grey, on 17 December 2015 - 04:00 AM, said:

It should be 12 v 5 imo, make it "Accurate" to "Battletech Canon".

additionally, only div 1 players should be allowed to operate clan mechs

and a clan pilot who shoots more than one target at a time auto-ejects

ok but first remove

• IS XL
  
• Endosteel
  
• Ferro Fibrous
  
• DHS
  
• ER Weapons
  
• Pulse Weapons
  
• Gauss
  
• Ultra
  
• LBX
  
• Artemis
  
• TAG
  
• AMS
  
• GECM
  
• BAP
  
• MASC
  
• 50% of all IS Mechs

Have i forgotten something....

• Clan ERPCC do 15 dmg
  
• cDHS +2heat cap -0.2 heat dissipation
  
• iSHS +1heat cap -0.1 heat dissipation

OK .... hm Thor Prime vs MAR-3R stock... my bets given the MWO mechanic are on the MAD
And the main reason.... the pilot

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 December 2015 - 04:11 AM.

[Wales Grey]

IS XL exist, or are you arguing that the SL never developed the technology?

its almost like I was insinuating that "it's the way it was in tabletop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is bad/wrong game design.

[Karl Streiger]

Wales Grey, on 17 December 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

IS XL exist, or are you arguing that the SL never developed the technology?

its almost like I was insinuating that "it's the way it was in tabletop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is bad/wrong game design.

No I'm just said: 5 vs 12 - you need a huge edge for those 5, in MWO.... maybe in TT it could have worked because of the better clan pilots...(but of course only when facing Intro Tech Level Mechs)

just a test with 1 MAD-3R vs 1 Thor Prime and 4/5 pilots was a win for the Thor....
let see what happens when its 2 MAD-3R vs 1 Timber Wolf

But in the end its still the problem that a MAD-3R would not overheat in MWO as fast as it would in TT.
That plus the option that the MWO Player can aim - would strong impact on the performance of a clan mech.

Without proof i would think that all Clan weapons may need a general buff of 50-100% to work in a 5 vs 12 setting


Just some fast MegaMek Testing:
2 MAD-3D (in my eyes the vanilla MAD of Intro Era) with two 4/5 pilots facing a single MadCat A (my eyes the best clan mech of the invasion era)
Two kills for the Clan with some heavy damage

Next with SL Tech 2 MAD-2R (2ERPPCs, FF; and 16 DHS) everything the same
two heavy damaged MAD-2Rs and a killed Mad Cat

and even with better clan tech (15 pin point ER PPCs and shorter beam duration for the tripple MLAS)
there is hardly any way that this Mad Cat could win the day vs 2 MAD-3D not even to mention some MADs using SL Technology)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 December 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[m]

First off, I never read through everyone's comments so I apologize if I am repeating anyone's statements. It's the holidays, I am busy, and I just came on the forums to burn some time.

Vegalas, on 06 December 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

I am doing this as a quick writeup so I'll try be brief. I'm tired of playing matches where clan mechs are in equal numbers to IS mechs and there fore one could assume that they're equally good in general but in fact they're not.

Every seasoned player knows that the clanners are slightly OP especially at longer ranges. In general IS players are told to push and get into close quarters do damage and avoid trading shots which in a nutshell means that IS players are required to play more sophisticated. This part of the reason I don't like to attack as IS since the mechs rarely have any advantage at all. The chances vary between maps but in general IS is the worse attacker. Atleast in my experience. There could be other ways to fix this but this atleast this one is friendly to the lore and common sense.

The idea of lances vs stars

Something like this has been discussed before and I'll bring it up again. According to lore clan mechs form a fighting group of 5 called a star. IS mechs form fighting groups of 4 which are called lances. Strangely, at the moment IS and clanner alike move in lances thanks to PGI's varyingly loose interpretation of lore which I think isn't right for several good reasons.

Having two stars and 3 lances fight in a CW match would change the gameplay entirely. The clanners could be allowed to be a little more buff like they are in lore while IS gets the benefit of having extra two mechs on the battlefield.

In normal arcade matches a team could have 13 players consisting of one clan star and 2 IS lances. In these games IS would also have the numbers advantage while clanners have the stronger mechs. MM could be tweaked so that matches would have the right amount of different weight classes and a team wouldn't fall too short of a certain mech type.

If we are going to get technical we have to look at specifics. Currently right now, in Standard Play, we have each side using 3 Lance's which are formally called a 'Company' in Inner Sphere Lore. It's described as an array of pretty much everything that we all use and some that we just don't see as of yet (Company includes artillery, air strikes, etc.).

Now we have been sort of identifying the groupings of players ever since partially through Closed Beta as the going standard (first it was a bulk of players, then the game started to formalize to what we now have).

When the Clans were introduced I thought they, PGI, were going to change everything. That never occurred. I am still waiting for the day to be honest.

Implementation of the Clan Lore game mechanic can technically only really happen most immediately in Community Warfare. I am referring of course to the Star Formation, which should be implemented. The formation is a grouping of 5 Clan 'Mechs.

This of course means that, in Community Warfare to which I would expect this to be implemented, we would see 2 Stars (10 Clan 'Mechs x 4) at 2 landing sites vs. a Company (3 Lance's or 12 IS 'Mechs x 4) at 3 landing sites.

As much as I want to side on the part of giving into the Clans having their 'nerfs' removed I would say no. The reason is simple; remove all the nerfs from every 'mech or don't. Before most of you signed up for this game it wasn't called in circles 'BrawlWarrior Online', but it has turned into that because everyone at some point and time chose to go to the forums and complain about the difficulty in their light mech. There used to be very calculating roles for each mech and each situation. Now there isn't, and we just peek around the corner, rush in, and brawl-brawl-brawl (like a light mech) in the favour of a light mech. If those nerfs were removed (heat penalties mostly) we would allow ourselves to use what each 'mech's role was actually designed for in the books, which was a very particular role according to lore. Names like Splat-Cat, Streak-Cat, etc etc used to seriously mean something. Today it doesn't resonate. What does resonate is 'How many lasers do you have on your 'mech?' which I find as disgusting as the term that is used to denote it as such (vomit).

Edited by m, 17 December 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Karl Streiger, on 17 December 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

No I'm just said: 5 vs 12 - you need a huge edge for those 5, in MWO.... maybe in TT it could have worked because of the better clan pilots...(but of course only when facing Intro Tech Level Mechs)

just a test with 1 MAD-3R vs 1 Thor Prime and 4/5 pilots was a win for the Thor....
let see what happens when its 2 MAD-3R vs 1 Timber Wolf

But in the end its still the problem that a MAD-3R would not overheat in MWO as fast as it would in TT.
That plus the option that the MWO Player can aim - would strong impact on the performance of a clan mech.

Without proof i would think that all Clan weapons may need a general buff of 50-100% to work in a 5 vs 12 setting


Just some fast MegaMek Testing:
2 MAD-3D (in my eyes the vanilla MAD of Intro Era) with two 4/5 pilots facing a single MadCat A (my eyes the best clan mech of the invasion era)
Two kills for the Clan with some heavy damage

Next with SL Tech 2 MAD-2R (2ERPPCs, FF; and 16 DHS) everything the same
two heavy damaged MAD-2Rs and a killed Mad Cat

and even with better clan tech (15 pin point ER PPCs and shorter beam duration for the tripple MLAS)
there is hardly any way that this Mad Cat could win the day vs 2 MAD-3D not even to mention some MADs using SL Technology)

Actually we played some Stock Clan v IS games.
And we found that best balance is 5v8 in MWO settings, very fun for both sides to play. That was in pre quirk era of course.

[DeiiUmbrarum]

Hear me out here, it'll be a little extra work for PGI but I think it might be worth it. Have a second tier of clan tech, one that's a little more canonically awesome, that can only be used in community warfare. Weapons and equipment specifically though, making people buy separate mechs would be a bit much. Just give clan mechs some competitive quirks that only function in CW.

Ooh, and gate the CW specific tech behind loyalty levels or whatever.

Clanners get the awesomeness they want, pugs stay balanced (and lean more towards IS because clanning in CW and Pugs costs you 20-50% more). PGI sells more premium time and whatever else they can package onto c-bill only mechs or whatever. Everyone wins.

Edited by DeiiUmbrarum, 15 January 2016 - 07:58 PM.

[Hotthedd]

That should have been done at the beginning, but that ship has sailed, and it is beyond PGI's vision or ability to do anything about it.

[Vellron2005]

Clan mechs in stars... never gonna happen...

[boxbox]

...Never gonna happen because Clan pilots would whine like a bunch of babys that its "not fair!" and PGI would take their side like they always do.

[Pocket_Aces]

They tried it and tested it but the system just didn't allow it. So, been there, done that, it didn't work.

[Thor Sten]

In the TT you could take your time and get a pretty good overview. You could calculate risks, plan your movement and concentrate firepower where it's needed, making 10 vs 16 a possible scenario. I think that's not the case in the FPS-like MWO and alone the additional "situational awareness" of fighting outnumbererd 10 vs 12 (let alone 16) would require such an ridiculous ammount of powershift, that it would make the tabletop's powergap pale in comparison. Well either that, or it would make the clans an interesting choice only for die hard fans, that are also gluttons for punishment.

Edited by Thor Sten, 08 October 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[GI Journalist]

I think this idea (10 Clan vs. 12) works for Faction Warfare if the designs are stock 'Mechs, and the Clans get 5 'Mechs in their drop deck.

Quick play isn't broken, so there is no need to try and fix it.

[Kuaron]

Yes, you could adjust the balance for the IS-12 vs. 10-C confrontations (reducing or taking back most quirks should be enough), and for QP just add a balancing factor to the Clan Mech's balancing weight.

The inequality between the Mechs shouldn't be that great to stay fun for everyone, but this suggested 20% and having 2 stars vs. 3 lances would be very fluffy and allow to get rid of artificial buffs to lore-wise inferior tech.

[Colonel Clunge]

I'm only reporting from personal experience here, but from all of the CW matches that I have played as IS I think my win percentage is about 10%. Now I'm not a brilliant pilot and I'm not in a unit so I have frequently suffered at the hands of an organised unit in opposition, but there have been plenty of CW matches where we are up against a PUG group like our own and we still lose far more often than we win. The main reason for this is the range and firepower benefits that Clan Mechs have. CW maps seem to contain a lot of long corridors and open spaces which massively benefit clan tech, especially when IS are attacking. There are of course some exceptions - Citric Forge - but for the most part, the simple reality is that Clanners can lay a lot more damage on you before you can even get close to scratch them. By that time even if you have the superior DPS capabilities, they have a massive headstart.

For that reason, I would vote for the 12 vs 10 and don't feel the Clan mechs need buffed. Look at the swathe that Jade Falcon have created in the recent round of CW.

This is of course not helped by the difficulties of competing in Scouting mode as the Stormcrows and Novas are very, very strong these days. Yes, pilot skill can make the difference, but I would always argue that an average Stormcrow pilot will beat an average Griffinpilot any day of the week.

I've stopped playing CW exactly because of this which is a real shame.

Lore tells us that Clan had the tech and IS had the numbers - let's reflect that in gameplay

[Syn Pryde]

10 versus 12 and get rid of the buffs for good.