20 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

This is more of an idea just floating around in my head that I just wanted to put to the forum. Keeping everything as is (and just boosted quirks) is easier, but I kind of liked how this idea would play out.

The Lead-In:

I was looking over the new Archer concept and noticed how much larger each side torso appeared when the launcher doors were open. It at least adds 20% extra to the height if not more...


At first I am thinking that the side torsos will need to be quirked with extra structure and armor, but even then, I'm thinking that even with quirks, the torsos are so well defined that either it needs substantial quirking, and even with that, it may still fall victim to torso loss with that increased door surface area.

Then I remembered this...


Notice the paper doll in the bottom left corner? It has shoulder hitboxes. This used to happen (and may still happen occasionally) with a HUD glitch on launch.

At the time it was first noticed, we thought it might be tied to the Timber Wolf (as a way to keep the launchers from making it easier to frag the side torso). Turns out that was never an issue or concern (probably mostly due to the nature of the clan XL).


The Idea:

Instead of buffing the side torso with structure and armor, how about making the missile doors those shoulder hitboxes?

With the doors closed, they help protect the larger more defined side torsos and with them open, they don't contribute to the side torso hitbox (making it much larger). The doors wouldn't need much armor (possibly as much as the quirks would have added anyway).

Practical wise, the paper doll has the provision somewhere as that glitch showed, the doors are often rendered as a separate entity that can be removed (see Catapult doors)...


It would be kind of neat to be able to blow off those doors with a shot as well.


Potential Problems:

Other than dedicating resources to working this into the game for possibly just 2 mechs (Catapult and Archer), how does the hitbox locations work? They would have armor, but no rear crit space. They might be weird therefore to treat as a separate location. Is it ok to have a hitbox (not normally on the Battletech paper doll) and is it ok for it to have an armor value and no internal structure?

Closing (TL;DR):

Would it be a neat idea to have the doors act as a separate hitbox to help protect the side torsos on an Archer and the arms on a Catapult? They could be destructible, they wouldn't increase surface area of the side torsos/arms when the doors are open, and they would allow for less structure and armor quirks for the side torsos.

With the side torsos on IS heavies being magnets for XL destruction, would the removal of the missile doors from the side torsos help the Archer's suitability when firing and help keep potential larger quirks from being needed.

This is more of an idea just floating around in my head that I just wanted to put to the forum. Keeping everything as is (and just boosted quirks) is easier, but I kind of liked how this idea would play out.

An interesting idea?

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 08 December 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[El Bandito]

In the novels, bay doors hit by enemy weapons can sometimes jam and won't open or close again. Of course, we cannot have such level of immersion in this game.

As for OP's suggestion, the issue is minor enough for me to be fine with either implementation.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 December 2015 - 06:59 AM.

[Mechteric]

Unfortunately the door opening/closing thing has always been a bane on MWO gameplay. As cool as it is, it just makes it look silly when new players have no idea why their missiles take an extra half a second to fire on certain mechs but not on others. This game is just not enough of a simulation to keep such a thing in it.

[CDLord HHGD]

Maybe with a paper doll representation, we can get rid of that obscure light and use the paper doll to indicate when they are open or closed....

[MeiSooHaityu]

CapperDeluxe, on 08 December 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

Unfortunately the door opening/closing thing has always been a bane on MWO gameplay. As cool as it is, it just makes it look silly when new players have no idea why their missiles take an extra half a second to fire on certain mechs but not on others. This game is just not enough of a simulation to keep such a thing in it.

As it is, the doors are going stay regardless. When they are open though, the hitbox increases in size since they are tied to the location they are mounted too. The Catapult had a break because PGI changed the door from straight up and down to a horizontal position reducing it's surface area to an attacker. The Archer does not have this break because there needs to be enough room for the missiles to exit the torso and clear the door (or it looks pretty odd).

It was just intended to be a way to allow the doors to open fully, yet not increase the side torso as a target. With the Archer still out a ways in development and the Catapult's arms being reworked, maybe this is the time to do it? If it seems reasonable.

[MeiSooHaityu]

cdlord, on 08 December 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Maybe with a paper doll representation, we can get rid of that obscure light and use the paper doll to indicate when they are open or closed....

Good idea.

If the missile door hitboxes are never going to be implemented, maybe use the paper doll with shoulders to show missile door status like you said.

Change the style so as not to be mistaken for an actual hitbox and have them change green or yellow if open or closed. Also, maybe add a circle if open and an X if closed sitting inside the shoulders.

I know the light does the same, but with bloom on, night/thermal on, etc... It can be hard to tell the door status.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 08 December 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[zagibu]

CapperDeluxe, on 08 December 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

Unfortunately the door opening/closing thing has always been a bane on MWO gameplay. As cool as it is, it just makes it look silly when new players have no idea why their missiles take an extra half a second to fire on certain mechs but not on others. This game is just not enough of a simulation to keep such a thing in it.

I disagree completely. Taking it out would remove another reason for me to play the game. I love all those little manual triggers like bay doors and AMS toggle. So what if ignorant people have a small disadvantage? It's not like they can't shoot at all because of the doors.

MeiSooHaityu, on 08 December 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

As it is, the doors are going stay regardless. When they are open though, the hitbox increases in size since they are tied to the location they are mounted too.

Has this actually been tested? If I made a game, I would probably just not give them a hitbox at all.

Edited by zagibu, 08 December 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

I don't mind how they do it, just so long as the doors don't count as ST hitbox when open.

[Malleus011]

I'm looking forward to another 'mech with missile doors. Perhaps the second former auto detect:No screen that actually functions should display missile doors, if any?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Otto Cannon, on 08 December 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

I don't mind how they do it, just so long as the doors don't count as ST hitbox when open.

I think they will. They are part of the side torso. I'm pretty darn sure the Catapult's doors are part of the arms. That is why the Catapult's doors are horizontal (to present a smaller target when open).

I suppose the doors could be transparent and allow weapons fire to go through it, but that would be kind of odd. They can't block fire because it would create a hitbox dead zone on the torso when closed.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 08 December 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 08 December 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

I think they will. They are part of the side torso. I'm pretty darn sure the Catapult's doors are part of the arms. That is why the Catapult's doors are horizontal (to present a smaller target when open).

I suppose the doors could be transparent and allow weapons fire to go through it, but that would be kind of odd. They can't block fire because it would create a hitbox dead zone on the torso when closed.

It makes most sense for them to be separate objects that can be destroyed. So when open they can be shot off without damaging the torso itself, and when closed they add an ablative layer that has to be taken out before damage goes through.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Otto Cannon, on 08 December 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

It makes most sense for them to be separate objects that can be destroyed. So when open they can be shot off without damaging the torso itself, and when closed they add an ablative layer that has to be taken out before damage goes through.

Exactly!

And that is why I made this post. It was to ask/suggest if that mechanic should be considered.

[stjobe]

It's been way too long since I took my Founder Cat out for a spin, but didn't they just simply remove the hitbox from the launcher doors around the time they removed the "closed doors give 10% damage reduction" thing?

If I recall correctly - and I'm not at all sure I do - it was about the time they first started out with quirks.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Did they remove the hitboxes from the doors?

It seems odd they would flatten out the door like that (when open) if it didn't transmit damage. You would just think they would have left it.

Then again, I can't find squat about the way doors are treated.

I have to say though, if doors were transparent to incoming fire, that would be pretty ridiculous appearance wise. Then again, like I was getting at, I wouldn't want it transmitting damage either.

[Alistair Winter]

I'd be happy with this, if implemented properly. Right now, there's no real advantage to having missile launchers with doors, only disadvantages. Makes no sense to have them in the first place. They need to add considerable benefits to make up for the delay when firing.

[Lyoto Machida]

I never understood why people ran with the doors closed for 10% less damage. That delay in the door opening night cost me much more than 10% in outgoing damage, so I always opened them upon dropping.

Now if it was 25% or more, then it would start to make a noticeable difference.

[stjobe]

Lyoto Machida, on 08 December 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

I never understood why people ran with the doors closed for 10% less damage. That delay in the door opening night cost me much more than 10% in outgoing damage, so I always opened them upon dropping.

Now if it was 25% or more, then it would start to make a noticeable difference.

As a Centurion pilot (yes, we had those doors on our LT missile tubes back in the day), I'd close the doors when I was brawling if I had LRMs in there - or open them at that point if I had SRMs.

Also, keeping them closed added about half a second to the firing sequence; you got used to compensate for that pretty quick, and then you had a 10% sturdier LT.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

stjobe, on 08 December 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

It's been way too long since I took my Founder Cat out for a spin, but didn't they just simply remove the hitbox from the launcher doors around the time they removed the "closed doors give 10% damage reduction" thing?

If I recall correctly - and I'm not at all sure I do - it was about the time they first started out with quirks.

They removed that 10%? I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

Lyoto Machida, on 08 December 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

I never understood why people ran with the doors closed for 10% less damage. That delay in the door opening night cost me much more than 10% in outgoing damage, so I always opened them upon dropping.

Now if it was 25% or more, then it would start to make a noticeable difference.

Kintaro has a ct missile door that I leave that hardpoint empty on because I hate the delay when firing and I figured 10% dr could only help that chassis since the door is always closed now.

[stjobe]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 08 December 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

They removed that 10%? I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

I seem to recall they did, but perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me and I just recall the Centurion losing its 10% reduction when it lost its missile doors.

Should be pretty easy to test if you have a friend and at least one of you owns a Catapult.

[Strum Wealh]

Another option would be to change the style of the Archer's missile doors from a single large flip-up door on each shoulder (as seen on the concept art, and on the Catapult) to a set of smaller shutter-like doors that open to the sides on each shoulder (like the old Centurion missile bay doors)...?