254 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I think @Mystere is right in this case @Mcgral18.

Harmonization of equipment is bad. Just because some of our stuff is the same now, doesn't mean we want more of it to be functionally identical. That said the latest balance changes are NOT pushing towards harmonization, and making the IS XL engines survivable still leaves plenty of room to include flavorful differences between the clan and IS, take for example the idea of IS mechs having a death countdown instead of slowing down like clan mechs.

I'm not saying it's the right solution, but it is not so simple as saying either make the tech the same or make it unbalanced. Reasonable asymmetrical balance is achievable.

[Mcgral18]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

I think @Mystere is right in this case @Mcgral18.

Harmonization of equipment is bad. Just because some of our stuff is the same now, doesn't mean we want more of it to be functionally identical. That said the latest balance changes are NOT pushing towards harmonization, and making the IS XL engines survivable still leaves plenty of room to include flavorful differences between the clan and IS, take for example the idea of IS mechs having a death countdown instead of slowing down like clan mechs.

I'm not saying it's the right solution, but it is not so simple as saying either make the tech the same or make it unbalanced. Reasonable asymmetrical balance is achievable.

Again, the LPL example


Mechanically identical, different feeling, both useful.

Asymmetrically balanced, but mechanically identical.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 December 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Mystere]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

You're referring vaguely to a feature that is not yet in the game. What are you referring to as Solaris? Free for All matches? ranked pub-queue style matches? the pub queue simply renamed as Solaris? what?

By Solaris, I was referring to the eSports side of MWO that many players obviously want:

• ranked
  
• free-for-all and team vs. team
  
• contests
  
• prizes
  
• betting/gambling
  
• etc.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

Regardless of what the game was supposed to be, your suggestions will kill the game in the end if carried out. I like what this game is now, as do many others. You nerf their IS mechs into the dirt and pull the pub queue out from beneath them then this game's days are shortly numbered.

Point me to where I said IS gear should be nerfed into the dirt.

As for the public queues, I already mentioned it earlier: they were supposed to be just fillers that ended up becoming the main feature -- along with other supposed-to-be fillers. Why else do you think people keep mentioning the phrase "minimally viable product"?

And I have one last note. I don't know about you, but Steam release -- although hopefully ends up good -- smells like a desperation move to me.

And I forgot, did you also know that we used to have a live player counter? Would a healthy game remove such a feature?

Edited by Mystere, 09 December 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Simper solution. Allow IS mechs to lose an XL side torso just like the Clan mechs. In tabletop terms, allow 4 engine crits before failure. Clan pay 2 less crit slots, who says they have to have more advantage than that?

[Mcgral18]

MechWarrior5152251, on 09 December 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Simper solution. Allow IS mechs to lose an XL side torso just like the Clan mechs. In tabletop terms, allow 4 engine crits before failure. Clan pay 2 less crit slots, who says they have to have more advantage than that?

You'd be surprised.

[Mystere]

MechWarrior5152251, on 09 December 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Simper solution. Allow IS mechs to lose an XL side torso just like the Clan mechs. In tabletop terms, allow 4 engine crits before failure. Clan pay 2 less crit slots, who says they have to have more advantage than that?

That would be absolutely perfect, for a "minimally viable product".

But I myself would rather have a better heat and critical system.

[Lugh]

MechWarrior5152251, on 09 December 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Simper solution. Allow IS mechs to lose an XL side torso just like the Clan mechs. In tabletop terms, allow 4 engine crits before failure. Clan pay 2 less crit slots, who says they have to have more advantage than that?

further marginalizing the STD engine as a choice in the META game... how about no. OR (and you'll hate this because it's the last thing you want to see) Unlock the clan Omnis to full optimization so I can slap an xl400 in my SCR and all cslasers.

Oh you don't want that?

How about letting me slap endosteel on my novas that way I can do an xl 360 and 2 pcs along with 10 slers?

Oh you don't wanna let me do that either do you.. Sorry. your limits are your limits. You don't get to cherry pick any more than I do.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

That would be absolutely perfect, for a "minimally viable product".

But I myself would rather have a better heat and critical system.

By better critical system, you mean RNGeesus Dual Gauss blowing out your torso as soon as it breaches the armour?
Dat FLD Crit Advantage.
Already happens to heads.

[Tarl Cabot]

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

That would be absolutely perfect, for a "minimally viable product".

But I myself would rather have a better heat and critical system.

I think there are many who would want that, unfortunately I do not see it happening. Components have a hitpoint size so simply crit them reduces the hitpoint until it is destroyed. As for the heat system /shrugs...I still believe there should be negative effects for riding the heat scale, not just when it hits max instead of passing it off onto other interactions.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

By Solaris, I was referring to the eSports side of MWO that many players obviously want:

• ranked
  
• free-for-all and team vs. team
  
• contests
  
• prizes
  
• betting/gambling
  
• etc.

Point me to where I said IS gear should be nerfed into the dirt.

As for the public queues, I already mentioned it earlier: they were supposed to be just fillers that ended up becoming the main feature -- along with other supposed-to-be fillers. Why else do you think people keep mentioning the phrase "minimally viable product"?

And I have one last note. I don't know about you, but Steam release -- although hopefully ends up good -- smells like a desperation move to me.

And I forgot, did you also know that we used to have a live player counter? Would a healthy game remove such a feature?

A solaris of that nature would pull players away from CW the same as the pub queue does.

I suppose you did not explicitly say IS should be nerfed into the dirt. Seeing as you said you are not a lore purist I suppose it is not entirely safe to assume you want clan and IS to follow timeline and to have proper timeline equipment disparities. If you do that'd mean tossing out IS quirks removing IS DHS and ERLL.

Though I'm not sure what you're calling for anymore . Do you or don't you want reverse the recent balance changes as well as quirks?

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

That would be absolutely perfect, for a "minimally viable product".

But I myself would rather have a better heat and critical system.

And a "Player # Counter", that you would never ever believe, don't forget.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Lugh, on 09 December 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

further marginalizing the STD engine as a choice in the META game... how about no.

How about we stopping making this a false dilemma and accept that a STD engine buff can go alongside an IS XL buff?

[Mystere]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

A solaris of that nature would pull players away from CW the same as the pub queue does.

That is indeed possible. but can easily be mitigated by giving CW more depth, variety, and ultimately fun.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

I suppose you did not explicitly say IS should be nerfed into the dirt. Seeing as you said you are not a lore purist I suppose it is not entirely safe to assume you want clan and IS to follow timeline and to have proper timeline equipment disparities. If you do that'd mean tossing out IS quirks removing IS DHS and ERLL.

Though I'm not sure what you're calling for anymore . Do you or don't you want reverse the recent balance changes as well as quirks?

Quirks should be for flavor between chassis, not as a mechanism to equalize Clans and IS.

Timeline should come as a natural but well-planned progression of the game.

And in both instances, they require good design, planning, and foresight, not seemingly slapped-on mechanics, patches, and other changes.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

That is indeed possible. but can easily be mitigated by giving CW more depth, variety, and ultimately fun.

Yes, but by the same token, you can do the same thing for pulling players out of the Pub queue into CW. I get that you don't like the pub queue on the principle of it being filler, but getting rid of it now would be a waste of the maps that had a lot of dev time put into them. Once Solaris becomes available i suppose you can make what is in the pub queue part of Solaris, but that's more changing the name of the pub queue than anything else.

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

Quirks should be for flavor between chassis, not as a mechanism to equalize Clans and IS.

Timeline should come as a natural but well-planned progression of the game.

And in both instances, they require good design, planning, and foresight, not seemingly slapped-on mechanics, patches, and other changes.

I agree. Quirks should be about flavor instead of balance. Where we differ is that I think IS and Clans should have their equipment balanced in ways other than with quirks, and an IS XL engine buff would go a long way towards that.

PS: PGI only has a license to make a 3050 style battle-tech shooter, they don't have a license for any other time period. They'd need to acquire a license to advance the timeline.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 09 December 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Ideas for STD engine buffs:

-Increased structre in torso sections (more room for structural support)
-Torso twist speed bonuses (lower moment of inertia by concentrating mass in the center)
-Torso twist X bonuses (XL engine restricts range of motion at the waist?)
-Cooling bonuses/Heat cap bonuses?

[Chagatay]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

How about we stopping making this a false dilemma and accept that a STD engine buff can go alongside an IS XL buff?

Just introduce LFE and be done with it. XLs would still be picked for lights. Most Mediums and lots of heavy stuff would probably pick LFE. Heavy slow assaults would probably pick STD as it has no penalties on losing a side torso and the faster more nimble ones would take LFE. Clan XLs would still be supreme but the gap would be narrowed and as always IS would have the better customization options.

Clans having XLs that don't kill you on blowout is one of their advantages of picking that tech tree...

[Mcgral18]

Chagatay, on 09 December 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Just introduce LFE and be done with it. XLs would still be picked for lights. Most Mediums and lots of heavy stuff would probably pick LFE. Heavy slow assaults would probably pick STD as it has no penalties on losing a side torso and the faster more nimble ones would take LFE. Clan XLs would still be supreme but the gap would be narrowed and as always IS would have the better customization options.

Clans having XLs that don't kill you on blowout is one of their advantages of picking that tech tree...

Because Legacy Tech™ is a terrible idea.


That just makes the STD worthless, which is the opposite of what we want.

[Mystere]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yes, but by the same token, you can do the same thing for pulling players out of the Pub queue into CW. I get that you don't like the pub queue on the principle of it being filler, but getting rid of it now would be a waste of the maps that had a lot of dev time put into them. Once Solaris becomes available i suppose you can make what is in the pub queue part of Solaris, but that's more changing the name of the pub queue than anything else.

The maps can always be repurposed. There also is nothing to stop CW from having skirmish battles.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 December 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

I agree. Quirks should be about flavor instead of balance. Where we differ is that I think IS and Clans should have their equipment balanced in ways other than with quirks, and an IS XL engine buff would go a long way towards that.

Yes, that is where the basic difference lies. A number of people want only to balance equipment and only equipment. Others want a more comprehensive balancing system that is also lore-friendly. The former is easier, but with a very high risk of reaching harmonization. The latter is more difficult, as it requires good planning, good design, and ultimately good implementation. The question now becomes: Is PGI up to the task?

[Tarl Cabot]

Lugh, on 09 December 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

further marginalizing the STD engine as a choice in the META game... how about no. OR (and you'll hate this because it's the last thing you want to see) Unlock the clan Omnis to full optimization so I can slap an xl400 in my SCR and all cslasers.

Oh you don't want that?

How about letting me slap endosteel on my novas that way I can do an xl 360 and 2 pcs along with 10 slers?

Oh you don't wanna let me do that either do you.. Sorry. your limits are your limits. You don't get to cherry pick any more than I do.

There is something many are not looking at. The game has no actual engine crit system in place, be it 1/2/3/4/+ crits, where actual damage is done to the engine components, whether they are located in the LT/CT/RT, until a complete side torso is lost on an IS-XL (3ec-side) and C-XL (2ec-side equipped mech. Then the C-XL has only heat/movement penalty w/one side torso, destroyed with 2nd ST loss. With IS-XL it is simply destroyed w/one ST loss, and that, imho is too extreme since the other factors have been completely missing from the game. Essentially, every other IS and Clan component acts in a similar fashion except for the IS/C-XL.

You are looking at how it may affect mechs with the current set of quirks for the top tier mechs. If there was to be a change to the IS-XL, it would benefit the low performers than the top performers cause most of the IS mechs are built around ballistics and missiles.

Nor would it marginalize Std engines. For many of the most of top tiered mechs, many have asymmetric payloads and are laser builds. It may allow them to move a tad faster and equip an extra heatsink, but on the other side, would they prefer to go slower and not have to deal with heat/movement penalty (movement should really be reflected on the Heat Scale).

As for adding endo/ff to a clan mech, I could see it happening in only one way and that is by locking the that chassis to its specific variant, being unable to switch omnipods. It all likelihood PGI would have to make a separate variant, making it a battlemech instead of an omni, based on how they have handled other items.

The last thing to consider is PGI stance that even with war going on, there is not actual salvage, even if that salvage was to be made to work at less than 100%. That is part of BT lore/game.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

The maps can always be repurposed. There also is nothing to stop CW from having skirmish battles.

Yes, but if you force players into CW, which you will do if you remove pub queue before you add Solaris, you will see mass QQ.

Mystere, on 09 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes, that is where the basic difference lies. A number of people want only to balance equipment and only equipment. Others want a more comprehensive balancing system that is also lore-friendly. The former is easier, but with a very high risk of reaching harmonization. The latter is more difficult, as it requires good planning, good design, and ultimately good implementation. The question now becomes: Is PGI up to the task?

The latter is also at a higher risk of causing QQ. The former is also not at a high risk of reaching harmonization. You keep saying that but I don't see any evidence. PGI is not up to the task. As a company they will take the rout that insures more financial security. Pursuing equipment balance will get them that security because the general population is plenty happy with forcing lore into a secondary position BEHIND balance, rather than devoting extensive resources to TRY and get lore and balance to co-exsist.

We aren't even sure if lore balance will work, and many of us do not want to see all the hard work put towards balancing thrown away in the name of lore, regardless of if a lore based balance could eventually be achieved.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 09 December 2015 - 01:15 PM.