254 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

MauttyKoray, on 08 December 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

Hm, something I saw someone post was to give CTs a buff to internals or something that use STD. You could give lights +10, Mediums +15, etc? (or a different amount, maybe a solid blanket number.)

I say just blanket amount; something significant enough that an Atlas would appreciate it, and the Spider 5V would LOVE...if he didn't skip Leg Day.


Wouldn't make much of a difference at the top, but the PUG LIFE would appreciate the option. If something small is taking an STD, sacrifices were made to firepower.
Without quirks, of course...those tend to complicate things.


Anyhow, things that make the STD VS XL a side grade, more than an upgrade (especially for the Clam faction). The STD VS isXL is a notable downside, but with the cXL that exists (and cannot swap to isXL characteristics), it did bring a significant power creep in that particular section, which still remains.
Normalization and buffing both increases TTK (removing instagibbing, buffing Lights+Meds significantly) without increasing the power level significantly. You might see more isXL mechs, but do they carry more firepower than their current Clam XL counterparts?
Not likely.


That's my thought process.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

id honestly like to see you being able to fit more heatsinks INSIDE the STD engines. it means extra true dubs that could help keep heat down for sustained fire. so you dont have as many guns but you can shoot them more often. and yes XLs need too be normalized or have somthing changed

[Mcgral18]

TheKillerWolf, on 08 December 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

id honestly like to see you being able to fit more heatsinks INSIDE the STD engines. it means extra true dubs that could help keep heat down for sustained fire. so you dont have as many guns but you can shoot them more often. and yes XLs need too be normalized or have somthing changed

Those aren't TrueDubs; there's a maximum of 10 TrueDubs, engine mounted are still PoorDubs.


Still, allows for isEndo to be mounted on Energy intensive mechs (saving 3x Crits per additional slot).

[MauttyKoray]

What about giving the IS XLs a boost to ST internals in order to compensate? Like +20 to each ST when an IS XL is equipped?

This on top of the STD CT boost and I feel like each engine would be more of a side grade to one another.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Yeah, echoing Mcgral18:

Even normalizing IS XL with Clans, Clantech still is smaller and weapons are lighter. So, you won't see IS suddenly carrying ridiculous amounts of firepower. Likely, it would still be less than same-weight Clan 'Mechs.

Couple that with slightly bigger penalty for losing ST (-30% movement) and IS XLs are still not quite as good.

Further, add buffs to standard equipment (engines/structure/armor) and you can get rid of a lot of the durability Quirks. And Quirks can go back to being used to chassis flavor, like they should be.

[Mister Blastman]

I'm a purist. I think the engines are fine as is because many IS 'mechs can tank damage better than Clan ones (except for the Cheetah) so your side torsos can last longer as a result.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 08 December 2015 - 09:39 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Mister Blastman, on 08 December 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

I'm a purist. I think the engines are fine as is because many IS 'mechs can tank damage better than Clan ones (except for the Cheetah) so your side torsos can last longer as a result.

Uh...what? Since when could IS as a whole tank damage better than Clans? This is coming from an IS bred and current Clanner, and there are some tanky *** Clan mechs, and some fragile as heck IS mechs. Generally the IS mechs that run XL don't last very long because its usually the same mech that runs it so you always shoot for the ST as a quicker kill than shooting the CT would be.

This is part of the reason I suggested the internal structure boosts. A CT boost for Standard Engines (both Clan and IS), while a ST boost for IS XL engine. It would give a benefit to running any of the 4 engines and making them all more of a sidegrade to one another than a pure up/down grade dependent on the mech it is.

NOTE: Benefit for Clan STDs would be a "Let's see how the Clan Battlemechs balance first." situation as they might be completely fine without it, who knows.

Example: (IS focused due to above note)
XLs in assaults would be viable, gaining a bit of durability in their STs on internals and extra firepower. However, their CT would remain the same and thus its survivability compared to the current STDs would not change, but would also boost IS firepower with the increased tonnage, no more QQ alright you IS babies? lol

STDs in converse would boost the CT internals and create a more durable, slightly tankier mech instead of opting for the weight savings. It would take more damage to fully core the CT of a mech, which would even make stripping other parts off them a priority in the case of large, heavy hitting weaponry or concentrations of several weapons on a side/location.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 December 2015 - 09:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Flat out biggest problem to any fix like this now -

Fixing this glaring, obvious out of the gate imbalance has been ignored for years. By leaving it this long you're going to make the response to the solution worse than the 'my life is ruined' response to PTS2 and PTS3. It's theoretically possible they'll look at it after the IIC content is delivered and people can't refund it (since you'd get a massive outcry for refunds from all the people who bought Clan mechs/IIC mechs at their high prices because they thought they were buying an advantage).

Even at that, I don't think they'll do it. The outcry at this point would be too much. You even look at the discussions on it; people can't disentangle Clans from OP as a concept. Sure, balance it *sorta* but make allowances to keep the Clan tech better.

This whole situation has been bungled so badly, so many times and left for so long that there's no good fix left. Ideas to fix it haven't changed since the week Clan mechs were released; they're still good solutions. Just that actually fixing/balancing the game would have needed to have been a priority. It never has been and as such has been left to rot until there's no good solution left.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

MauttyKoray, on 08 December 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

This is part of the reason I suggested the internal structure boosts. A CT boost for Standard Engines (both Clan and IS), while a ST boost for IS XL engine. It would give a benefit to running any of the 4 engines and making them all more of a sidegrade to one another than a pure up/down grade dependent on the mech it is.

Example: (IS focused due to above note)
XLs in assaults would be viable, gaining a bit of durability in their STs on internals and extra firepower. However, their CT would remain the same and thus its survivability compared to the current STDs would not change, but would also boost IS firepower with the increased tonnage, no more QQ alright you IS babies? lol

STDs in converse would boost the CT internals and create a more durable, slightly tankier mech instead of opting for the weight savings. It would take more damage to fully core the CT of a mech, which would even make stripping other parts off them a priority in the case of large, heavy hitting weaponry or concentrations of several weapons on a side/location.

Internal structure (durability) buffs to standard equipment are a good idea; especially the engine. The whole point of STD engine is to be more durable than XL. Just need a bit more in that direction to make it viable.

But, buffs to ST for XL would have to be huge to compensate for that XL fragility. Ultimately, it still wouldn't be as good.

Currently we have a lot of durability buffs to IS chassis, despite which engine they take. The result is still "not as good" for those XL engines.

Just need to make XL engines function the same across techlines. Make this change and it would normalize so much of the game!

[MauttyKoray]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 08 December 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

Internal structure (durability) buffs to standard equipment are a good idea; especially the engine. The whole point of STD engine is to be more durable than XL. Just need a bit more in that direction to make it viable.

But, buffs to ST for XL would have to be huge to compensate for that XL fragility. Ultimately, it still wouldn't be as good.

Currently we have a lot of durability buffs to IS chassis, despite which engine they take. The result is still "not as good" for those XL engines.

Just need to make XL engines function the same across techlines. Make this change and it would normalize so much of the game!

That's the point though, to take the main durability job away from quirks. A mech would either take an XL and the ST would be buffed so that they're no longer quite as easy a target compared to the CT to crack, or take a STD and have a beefier CT meanwhile the STs still won't kill it like an XL.

Then to further flavor the mechs the quirks can be used to adjust things. Such as an Atlas getting durability quirks additionally to make it nice and meaty. Or say a Hunchback's RT to simulate extra armoring around the main gun (which in reality most military machines would have I would assume) to extend its lifespan.

I'm not saying its the end all best solution ever, I just think it makes a lot more sense than all these stupid *** vanilla blankets people are suggesting. I don't want to see Clans OP any more than an IS player, but I'd like Clans and IS to be unique packages with their own flavor, not clones with a different skin.

As much as I love the fluff and lore of Battletech, even Jordan (the guy who created BT) said the Clans were sort of shoe horned in and really are not balanced. As a story piece in a fiction, they work well and add in a unique twist and faction, but they do not play well when human beings get a say. So I'm 100% for ditching the 'purist' ideals and attempting to create a balance of unique character between the 2 factions..

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

It just begs the question: If you want to make IS XL more durable why not just do it the simplest, cleanest and most effective way?

Trying to give both IS standard and XL engines durability buffs (even for different locations), is tantamount what we have now (Quirk Buffs).

Making XL really viable and different than STD means not relying on durability. Let durability be the domain of the STD; let weight be the domain of XLs.

[kapusta11]

I wouldn't mind Mcgral's idea of STD engine with structure/armor buffs on my clam mechs, not that big of a deal with 2 crit heatsinks (with more dissipation!), clan endo and ferro upgrades and overall lighter armament.

Edited by kapusta11, 08 December 2015 - 11:44 PM.

[Lykaon]

Metus regem, on 08 December 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

So then what would you do with the Light Fusion Engine? Making the ISXL equal to the cXL would make the LFE obsolete. I think what should happen is proper Engine crit hits.

Proper engine crits would be the way to go but this still doesn't apply any ballance between clan XLs and I.S. XLs

The clan mechs get cake and eat it the I.S. mechs just get a clan easy mode installed in place of an engine.

My proposal would incorperate proper critical hits and an engine reballance.

XL engines have 15 health per crit location. A destroyed XL engine crit slot incurs a heat penalty that is cumulative with all other engine heat pentalties. A mech is destroyed when it has recieved four XL engine criticals.(note this means a clan mech is destroyed only when all side torso engine crit slots are destroyed while an I.S. mech would be destroyed when it takes a fourth engine hit. this retains some of the fragility of an I.S. XL without granting the clan a vastly superior edge)

Standard engines have 30 health per crit location.Standard engines also incur a cumulative per engine crit heat penalty identical to an XL engine. Standard engines are destroyed when they reach four engine critical hits. Standard engines however also grant a substantial CT structure bonus to the mech and/or improve heat displacement or heat cap.

Light Fusion engines (if we ever get them) have 20 health per crit location,Incur a heat penalty per crit hit like any other engine. Are destroyed after four crit hits like all other engines and grant a smaller than a standard engine CT structure bonus to a mech with a LFE.

The choices are XL for weight savings and/or speed at the cost of durability (lower health points per crit,no CT structure bonuses) and crippling heat penalties when side torsos are damaged.

Standard engine for durability (high health points per crit and CT structure bonuses) and sustainability ( heat related bonuses for std engine use)

LFE Compromise between standard and XL engines with some of each types bonuses and penalties.

[Widowmaker1981]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

Flat out biggest problem to any fix like this now -

Fixing this glaring, obvious out of the gate imbalance has been ignored for years. By leaving it this long you're going to make the response to the solution worse than the 'my life is ruined' response to PTS2 and PTS3. It's theoretically possible they'll look at it after the IIC content is delivered and people can't refund it (since you'd get a massive outcry for refunds from all the people who bought Clan mechs/IIC mechs at their high prices because they thought they were buying an advantage).

Even at that, I don't think they'll do it. The outcry at this point would be too much. You even look at the discussions on it; people can't disentangle Clans from OP as a concept. Sure, balance it *sorta* but make allowances to keep the Clan tech better.

This whole situation has been bungled so badly, so many times and left for so long that there's no good fix left. Ideas to fix it haven't changed since the week Clan mechs were released; they're still good solutions. Just that actually fixing/balancing the game would have needed to have been a priority. It never has been and as such has been left to rot until there's no good solution left.

Which is yet another reason to buff the IS XL and the Clan/IS STD engines rather than further nerfing the CXL. No crying from nerfed clanners (and it would be legitimate crying - nerfing the CXL such that it was in any way balanced with the 1 ST death IS XL would remove most Omnis from the game due to their humongous STs that can be shot from any angle)

[Troutmonkey]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Hey, I came up with the idea before you!

How about this for flavour.
When an IS XL loses it's side torso, the reactor stars "Going Critical" in the following ways
1. Override automatically engages. You can no longer shut shut down
2. Your mech stops dissipating heat in any way
3. Your mech starts generating X heat per second
4. Your mech eventually overheats and dies

This would give your mech just enough time to get out just one more alpha before exploding in a blaze of glory. The kill would be rewarded to whomever took out your ST, or whoever killed you outright before overheating.

[El Bandito]

Mister Blastman, on 08 December 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

I'm a purist. I think the engines are fine as is because many IS 'mechs can tank damage better than Clan ones (except for the Cheetah) so your side torsos can last longer as a result.

If the IS XL is improved, these abominations known as quirks would be needed less.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 09 December 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

If the IS XL is improved, these abominations known as quirks would be needed less.

this only counts for the meta mechs, a COM or spider will still not match a FS9

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 December 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 09 December 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

this only counts for the meta mechs, a COM or ** will still not match a FS9

Waaay ahead of you.

El Bandito, on 24 April 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

My 2 cents:

1. Many IS mechs are over-quirked to the point of ridiculousness. I think IS quirks in general needs to be toned down and only the mechs that need it to perform "averagely" should have them. Like, the Locust, or 5V.

2. Certain Clan mechs such as the Crow and the Timbie needs to have some negative quirks to bring them in line with the others. Cause as long as they dominate the scene, balancing the Clans as a whole is not gonna happen.

You can also try to bring other Clan mechs to Crow/Timbie level via quirks but that will mean overabundance of quirks for many Clan mechs, resulting in the same mess IS mechs are in right now. So NERF Crow and Timbie.

Keep it simple stupid.

[Mcgral18]

Lily from animove, on 09 December 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

this only counts for the meta mechs, a COM or ** will still not match a FS9

Dying in 2 shots is still better than dying in 1.

It helps smaller IS mechs a fair bit, due to that Instagibbing.

[Lugh]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

Flat out biggest problem to any fix like this now -

Fixing this glaring, obvious out of the gate imbalance has been ignored for years. By leaving it this long you're going to make the response to the solution worse than the 'my life is ruined' response to PTS2 and PTS3. It's theoretically possible they'll look at it after the IIC content is delivered and people can't refund it (since you'd get a massive outcry for refunds from all the people who bought Clan mechs/IIC mechs at their high prices because they thought they were buying an advantage).

Even at that, I don't think they'll do it. The outcry at this point would be too much. You even look at the discussions on it; people can't disentangle Clans from OP as a concept. Sure, balance it *sorta* but make allowances to keep the Clan tech better.

This whole situation has been bungled so badly, so many times and left for so long that there's no good fix left. Ideas to fix it haven't changed since the week Clan mechs were released; they're still good solutions. Just that actually fixing/balancing the game would have needed to have been a priority. It never has been and as such has been left to rot until there's no good solution left.

All of this because PGI doesn't want to acknowledge that 30 years of battletech history marched with UPGRADE TO CLAN TECH IT IS BETTER, and then oh look IS adaptions of Clan tech that are = and in some cases better! Woot woot.

Mixed tech is entirely possible. All they need to do is charge an outrageous amount of c-bills to allow the IS to upgrade the ragdoll to clan tech and BAM you have clan tech on IS mechs. Then they might see that Clan tech has it's own challenges.

They aren't willing to do that because databases are HARD (they aren't) and MATH IS HARDER (it isn't)

Mcgral18, on 09 December 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Dying in 2 shots is still better than dying in 1.

It helps smaller IS mechs a fair bit, due to that Instagibbing.

Absolutely nothing will help light pilots that think that the Peek and poke is done the same way in lights as it is in heavies and assaults. THAT is the reason so many fail as light pilots.

Crest the rise at 130kph+ shoot, bank right and go behind the rise going forward at 130kph reduces exposure time far more than, TOP RISE BRAAAAAKE. REVERSE at 70KPH...

*facepalm*