163 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Then why to people B&M for 10 minutes when you try to do something less mindless than just waddle to the center of the map and hide play peek a boo?

Honestly there's a point where the players take the strategy out of the game all on their own, they don't even need PGI's help. Big open maps with multiple attack/defending routes and areas and all you do is walk to the center or cry about how others didn't follow you.

Oh I so miss 8v8 and a single queue where you actually had to try something different because you had no clue whatsoever what was coming your way or from where.

Edited by sycocys, 08 December 2015 - 05:59 PM.

[Madcap72]

You mean 8v8 on tiny maps where people only did 2-3 differnt options for tactics?
Where the whole fight at the citadel at river city came from?
That 8v8?

All the garbage tactics used are institutional memory from the 8v8 days.

[MischiefSC]

PGIs been pretty honest with what they've delivered and it's a pretty minimum viable product.

We as players though tend to be so lazy and apathetic that we take that minimum viable product and play it with the minimum viable effort. This is why scrubtacular clown shoe models show up and explain that players from CS:GO will show up and eat our lunch -

What they fail to realize is that the sheer, unmitigated apathy with which PGI manages the game will devour each and every f**k those new players have to give and convert them into bittervets with a bunch of absolute ***** pretend robbits in their bay, a couple over-quirked metawhore robbits that are all they can play because they've gotten over tier 3.

The only solution we have at this point is the same one FASA had - nuke it all, apologize for the absolute **** they pinched off on the release of the Clans and start over with balanced tech in Dark Ages.

I am confident that if the game felt like pgi had any ***** to give the players would follow suit.

[Escef]

8v8 was no more a bastion of imaginative tactics than pre-clan was a wonderland of long TTK. The thing I remember most from the 8v8 days was the pre-HSR borked hitreg that allowed a single Jenner to solo half a team.

EDIT: I also remember the lack of Champion mechs to use as trials, and the utter lack of a matchmaking algorithm that would place completely green players in with guys that had been playing for months.

Edited by Escef, 08 December 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[pwnface]

The mental aspect manifests itself more at higher level play with 12 mans in CW or in comp matches.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 08 December 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

The mental aspect manifests itself more at higher level play with 12 mans in CW or in comp matches.

More to the point, MW:O has a much higher "get out what you put in" cap than most games, especially shooters. It's just a metric **** ton of work to slog through to a point where you're really seeing that return and it takes a lot of work to create situations where you see those benefits.

Ironically, mwo makes it really difficult to get into what mwo really does that is exceptional.

[AEgg]

The thing I liked about 8v8 was that it was rare to get effectively instagibbed (part of that was due to not having DHS originally and not having a variety of other buffs later I'm sure). But with only 8 mechs per team, you were far less likely to reach "critical mass" in having enough firepower to kill whatever your group of mechs saw in one volley.

You can't really harass as a light very well anymore because mechs are always in large enough groups to one shot you.

There's also the basic issue where having 12 mechs on a team naturally means you'll be bumping into and getting stuck on one another more often than with only having 8. Even with bigger maps that doesn't change too much since everyone tends to group up in a tiny ball.

Basically what you do as an individual matters a whole lot more in 8v8 than it does in 12v12.

[Elizander]

The minimum IQ requirement to enjoy that aspect of the game was not listed in the ad. :3

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

That was just a development pillar. Like 1pv was, like coolant, etc. Theyre there to hold the game up to get founders' $ then they demolish them as they see fit.

AEgg, on 08 December 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

The thing I liked about 8v8 was that it was rare to get effectively instagibbed

ya, TTK is in the toilet from what Ive seen

When a change to the Atlas allows it to last 1 sec in battle rather than getting one shot is lauded as a great success, then TTK is too low

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 08 December 2015 - 06:51 PM.

[AEgg]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 December 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

That was just a development pillar. Like 1pv was, like coolant, etc. Theyre there to hold the game up to get founders' $ then they demolish them as they see fit.



ya, TTK is in the toilet from what Ive seen

When a change to the Atlas allows it to last 1 sec in battle rather than getting one shot is lauded as a great success, then TTK is too low

I honestly don't think TTK is too low. I think team sizes are too big, or that we don't have enough reason to split up.

1v1, TTK is arguably too high. 12v12, sure, it's too low.

[MischiefSC]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 December 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

That was just a development pillar. Like 1pv was, like coolant, etc. Theyre there to hold the game up to get founders' $ then they demolish them as they see fit.

Role warfare. Information Warfare. CW 90 days after open beta. A CW that didn't suck. The promise to quickly balance is and Clan mechs/tech.

It's a long list. Most of it I would chalk up to apathy more than greed. Greed is a drive, the development of mwo has shown a significant lack of that.

[sycocys]

Don't get me wrong, I had a great time despite the bitching. Playing my own game.

From my memory, and maybe most of it is due to running with the people I do - we were quite successful in splitting up in 2-3 groups and actually playing something far more along the lines of a Battletech match. Even most of the pug matches had far less of the mindless play.

Took a break maybe a month or two before 12v12 and up until that point this was my experience with the game. Seldom was the firing line/death ball ever used or seen in any of the games I recall before that, and the fights took place all around the maps - even as tiny as they were.

[Bishop Steiner]

sycocys, on 08 December 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Then why to people B&M for 10 minutes when you try to do something less mindless than just waddle to the center of the map and hide play peek a boo?

Honestly there's a point where the players take the strategy out of the game all on their own, they don't even need PGI's help. Big open maps with multiple attack/defending routes and areas and all you do is walk to the center or cry about how others didn't follow you.

Oh I so miss 8v8 and a single queue where you actually had to try something different because you had no clue whatsoever what was coming your way or from where.

well, one could point out the whole..you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink?

Fact is, even if the game was ideally mapped and balanced to be a "thinking man's shooter"? 90% of players would still be abject idiots.

[El Bandito]

Madcap72, on 08 December 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

You mean 8v8 on tiny maps where people only did 2-3 differnt options for tactics?
Where the whole fight at the citadel at river city came from?
That 8v8?

All the garbage tactics used are institutional memory from the 8v8 days.

On 8v8 I constantly managed to sneak attack the enemy rear in Frozen City--with an 85 ton Stalker. 8v8 had less deathballs. I want it back (also due to increased TTK and framerate and better matchmaking). That, and better hill climb rate for Assaults.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 December 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[sycocys]

Personally I think the maps should be about 3 times as big as Alpine is, and each lance drops in a random location out of some 30-40 variations. Never close enough to meet up, except maybe the fastest lights, in the first 3-4 minutes of the match.

Information/scouting would actually be useful. Tactics could actually be employed no matter what win conditions/missions you wanted to put into the matches - even with the shallow current ones (relegate skirmish to become a Solaris type mode with zoned off maps).

I'd much rather run with teams, but there's generally very few that I know/see online during my normal hours and I unfortunately can only run with my unit during Fri/Sat, also they kind of boinked group queue for large group/competitive play on the better maps (comparing the maps against the very boring CW designs).

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

On 8v8 I constantly managed to sneak attack the enemy rear in Frozen City--with an 85 ton Stalker. 8v8 had less deathballs. I want it back (also due to increased TTK and framerate and better matchmaking). That, and better hill climb rate for Assaults.

I just want predator vision back...is that so wrong?!?!?!

[Nightmare1]

It's a thinking man's game in the group drops, but not the pug drops. A lot of my best matches were the result of nip-and-tuck fighting while strategists on both sides moved pieces and countered moves like a game of chess.

...But most players are too impatient for that sort of thing and just Rambo it because they can. What you have to keep in mind is this; it's a "thinking man's shooter" in the sense that people that band together, orchestrate their teamwork, have patience, and think enough to raise themselves above the base level of twitch gamer will typically win the matches.

[sycocys]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

On 8v8 I constantly managed to sneak attack the enemy rear in Frozen City--with an 85 ton Stalker. 8v8 had less deathballs. I want it back (also due to increased TTK and framerate and better matchmaking). That, and better hill climb rate for Assaults.

Almost nothing was more fun than 2 Atlases trying to "sneak" up on the other team through the tunnel or cave. Or really when anyone did it for that matter - it actually used to be exciting in those regards. You could use crazy tactics like that because the other team was as well, and nobody was walking face first into 8-12 50 point alphas.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

Role warfare. Information Warfare. CW 90 days after open beta. A CW that didn't suck. The promise to quickly balance is and Clan mechs/tech.

It's a long list. Most of it I would chalk up to apathy more than greed. Greed is a drive, the development of mwo has shown a significant lack of that.

True that

AEgg, on 08 December 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

I honestly don't think TTK is too low. I think team sizes are too big, or that we don't have enough reason to split up.

1v1, TTK is arguably too high. 12v12, sure, it's too low.

1v1 never happens. What I see is 8-12 v1 most times I see the enemy on first contact

[pwnface]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 December 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

1v1 never happens. What I see is 8-12 v1 most times I see the enemy on first contact

If you walk into 8 enemies by yourself, it is kind of your own fault for having really terrible awareness.