163 replies to this topic

[Chain Fire]

So have we reached a point where we talk about the good old days of MWO?
Cause that's what this thread is doing, just seems a little odd compared to the
normal dialog....

[bar10jim]

When they effectively removed Conquest from the game, they removed the "thinking" part.

[pwnface]

In solo queue there isn't a whole lot of thinking going on.

In group matches where people actually coordinate on teamspeak, there can be a lot of intelligent gameplay. Shifting positions to get better firing lines, drawing the enemy team into a trap with a false retreat, distracting the enemy and hitting their flank etc are all possible when you have other players that you can communicate effectively with.

[Lightfoot]

It's mostly caused by laser-vomit balancing eliminating the need/reward for tactics and thought. Players just could not handle MechWarrior's multi-tactic weapon's layering. They whined and moaned about LRMs till they were made tactically useless last January. Before that they whined and moaned about PPCs till they were made useless (unless quirked) in August 2014 and before that they whined until PGI added that idiotic charge-up to the Gauss Rifle in June 2013. Along the way the mindless nerf to AC-2's.

If they wanted laser-vomit by whining for all the tactical nerfs they should have just left MWO or grown a backbone. Laser-vomit is one dimensional, has higher TTK's and who has the best lasers anyway? That's right the oh so hard to balance Clan tech. PGI doesn't get it, that MechWarrior is weapon and map enabled tactics. That when you use a weapon correctly it becomes better than anything else and likely gives the team the win. Instead MWO just grinds all that down to vanilla lasers. PGI needs to go to old MechWarrior Academy I think. MechWarrior is not a first person shooter, it's a Battlemech simulation.

[kapusta11]

All thinking is made before dropping when you either min max your mech or drop in some garbage. So far not many are capable of doing at least that,

Edited by kapusta11, 09 December 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[SaltBeef]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

On 8v8 I constantly managed to sneak attack the enemy rear in Frozen City--with an 85 ton Stalker. 8v8 had less deathballs. I want it back (also due to increased TTK and framerate and better matchmaking). That, and better hill climb rate for Assaults.

Was that a BAP sonar in that mode? that looked pretty neat too bad they got rid of it.

[pwnface]

Lightfoot, on 09 December 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

It's mostly caused by laser-vomit balancing eliminating the need/reward for tactics and thought. Players just could not handle MechWarrior's multi-tactic weapon's layering. They whined and moaned about LRMs till they were made tactically useless last January. Before that they whined and moaned about PPCs till they were made useless (unless quirked) in August 2014 and before that they whined until PGI added that idiotic charge-up to the Gauss Rifle in June 2013. Along the way the mindless nerf to AC-2's.

If they wanted laser-vomit by whining for all the tactical nerfs they should have just left MWO or grown a backbone. Laser-vomit is one dimensional, has higher TTK's and who has the best lasers anyway? That's right the oh so hard to balance Clan tech. PGI doesn't get it, that MechWarrior is weapon and map enabled tactics. That when you use a weapon correctly it becomes better than anything else and likely gives the team the win. Instead MWO just grinds all that down to vanilla lasers. PGI needs to go to old MechWarrior Academy I think. MechWarrior is not a first person shooter, it's a Battlemech simulation.

LRMs have been terrible weapons for a lot longer than just January. The meta and balance of this game is almost completely random because Paul has no idea what he is doing. The players just figure out what works the best and run with it.

It isn't the players that can't figure out multiple weapons and tactics, it's the poor balance that forces competitive players into very specific builds and chassis.

Edited by pwnface, 09 December 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Thinking man's shooter? What? I mean, i can usually afk for at least 5 minutes every match till people do more than poke at each other...

[LordNothing]

for a thinking mans shooter, i dont see a whole lot of thinking, out of players or devs alike. they could have just called it a sim like they did with mechwarrior 2 and spared us all the headaches.

[B0oN]

Nowadays ain´t too bad either, y´know ...

It´s just a shame everybody outsourced THINKING to their SMARTPHONE

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 09 December 2015 - 12:21 AM.

[LordNothing]

i dont own a dumb phone let alone a smart phone. instead i have a stack of old cb radios that nobody uses and hand them out to all my friends. unfortunately cats cant hold down the transmit button too well.

[Zolaz]

MWO is Russ' and Paul's thinking man's shooter.

[Lightfoot]

pwnface, on 09 December 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

LRMs have been terrible weapons for a lot longer than just January. The meta and balance of this game is almost completely random because Paul has no idea what he is doing. The players just figure out what works the best and run with it.

It isn't the players that can't figure out multiple weapons and tactics, it's the poor balance that forces competitive players into very specific builds and chassis.

Yep, that's what I said. LRMs have never been great, but they hosed them in January 2015 somehow, maybe an HSR change? Not sure, but it's funny that I rain hundreds of LRMs on a target while they are shooting me and nothing happens until they reach medium laser range where I core them with two laser shots.

I don't know how PGI expects most of these mechs to compete when all that works is laser-vomit. All the weapons have to work equally well when used correctly, only that can enable tactics and give each mech it's own individual character and value. So weird that a MechWarrior game would strip itself of weapon enabled tactics. I mean that is MechWarrior's greatest asset, why would you trash it?

[Black Ivan]

pwnface, on 09 December 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

LRMs have been terrible weapons for a lot longer than just January. The meta and balance of this game is almost completely random because Paul has no idea what he is doing. The players just figure out what works the best and run with it.

It isn't the players that can't figure out multiple weapons and tactics, it's the poor balance that forces competitive players into very specific builds and chassis.

Have to agree on this after the Quirk pass. Paul and his guys defintily have no clue on what theyare doing and what balance means.

[Revis Volek]

Escef, on 08 December 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

EDIT: I also remember the lack of Champion mechs to use as trials, and the utter lack of a matchmaking algorithm that would place completely green players in with guys that had been playing for months.

Thats how i learned to play and it was a terrible 4 months, no unit, no friends and everyone was your enemy even your own team sometimes. I had was literally contemplating if i was ever good at any game ever like 6 weeks in LOLZ!? It was horrific and i dont wish that on anyone...

MM is great ELO was not but PSR has made a difference for those that cant hold there own against the meta or dont want to conform to it which is nice i guess. Gave everyone a play ground in a sense and that was never here before.

[Vellron2005]

sycocys, on 08 December 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Then why to people B&M for 10 minutes when you try to do something less mindless than just waddle to the center of the map and hide play peek a boo?

Honestly there's a point where the players take the strategy out of the game all on their own, they don't even need PGI's help. Big open maps with multiple attack/defending routes and areas and all you do is walk to the center or cry about how others didn't follow you.

Oh I so miss 8v8 and a single queue where you actually had to try something different because you had no clue whatsoever what was coming your way or from where.

I think the "Thinking man's shooter" refers to CW.. not to pug ques..

Cose' let's face it.. the only place where you think when you play MWO is in CW (sometimes not even there, if you're pugging)

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 09 December 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

LRMs have been terrible weapons for a lot longer than just January. The meta and balance of this game is almost completely random because Paul has no idea what he is doing. The players just figure out what works the best and run with it.

It isn't the players that can't figure out multiple weapons and tactics, it's the poor balance that forces competitive players into very specific builds and chassis.

Here's the thing though.

Unless PGI runs MW:O in a locked room to which they do not have the key or it's all written in a language they do not speak (none of which I'm willing to deny completely given the games design process) they absolutely have the telemetry on what works and what doesn't.

Turning that into WHY people use what works and HOW they use it and WHY it works better is a process so simple that you can't get a degree in it. In fact that topic isn't even it's own class; it's a couple bits of homework. It's 4 answers on a 100 question exam. Getting the data in a useful fashion (without corrupting your own samples, etc) and implementing the results of that research is the hardpart. Turning data that is this degree of raw mathematics into useful, actionable results is less work than finding a parking spot at a sporting event. You can't even call it 'hard'. Maybe 'inconvenient'.

That players create the meta is one of the things that makes me facepalm so hard. The reality is that the problem isn't that MW:O is 'too complex' or anything like that. It's not that 'balancing it is hard'. The problem is that for whatever inconceivable reason PGI absolutely flat out ******* refuses to acknowledge that they made some fundamental mistakes in early game design and balance and take the steps to fix them. Heatscale being a big one. The whole function and design of missiles (especially LRMs). Whole function and design of ECM and all its counters. LBX. Liquid metal mechs. Almost everything about the release of Clans.

Added on top of that they flat out ******* refuse to change bad core mechanics and instead try to add new mechanics to try and offset bad core mechanics. A refusal to acknowledge and address bad design decisions is a clear indicator of a bad project leader. You know me, I dislike it when people try to call out individuals at PGI (or any company for that matter) for insults, etc. We can't really say who at PGI is actually responsible for those decisions. However the design process MW:O has gone through is a textbook example of a project being badly managed.

If you put the wrong size of tires on your car you don't cut away the wheel well and install a lift kit (all while clipping the gas tank by accident and installing the wrong suspension on the lift kit). You just put the right tires on. MW:O, conversely, at this point has hacked the car up so badly it doesn't drive on its own and is being pulled by neighborhood kids who are all pulling in different directions and trying to steer it with a sail made out of fish netting. Because otherwise they'd have to admit they picked the wrong ******* tires.

That's what makes bittervets. It's hard not to look at the game and see all the potential PGI refuses to realize because it would mean admitting prior mistakes. At this point they really can't change the fundamentals, even the broken ones, or the starving peasants will riot.

Given that, it's hard to even blame PGI for being apathetic about their own game. They've left nothing to chance at this point.

[Lykaon]

sycocys, on 08 December 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Then why to people B&M for 10 minutes when you try to do something less mindless than just waddle to the center of the map and hide play peek a boo?

Honestly there's a point where the players take the strategy out of the game all on their own, they don't even need PGI's help. Big open maps with multiple attack/defending routes and areas and all you do is walk to the center or cry about how others didn't follow you.

Oh I so miss 8v8 and a single queue where you actually had to try something different because you had no clue whatsoever what was coming your way or from where.

Here is the problem with the solo queue.

Lack of faith combined with lack of focus.

Lack of faith rears it's head when someone on the team sees an opening to exploit and calls for a push or a charge or even a redeployment to some other rock to crawl under.

The team then dithers about or ignores the opertunity until it's a loss. Most puggie teams would rather sit in cover and hidey pokey a losing battle than adjust tactics to potentially win.

Why does this happen? There is no trust in any team members judgment. It has become so ingrained to sit and poke that a good old fashioned blitz looks like suicide even when it's brilliant.

Lack of focus comes in two varieties.

1) Failing to play the game mode you are playing by executing every match like you're in a skirmish. Failing to pay attention to the primary objectives has lost countless games where other wise it should have been a win.

2) Failing to focus fire on targets. So many puggies have never experienced coordinated target calling that they honestly have no idea how quickly a target drops when under fire when more than one mech is firing on it. Because of this the blitz seems suicidal.They can not seem to wrap their tactics around the concept that if a target evoporates in 3 seconds it's not shooting back after second 3.

There is no faith that your team will have your back and no faith that a team mate suggesting something other than face a rock and hidey pokey isn't insane and/or suicidal.

And understandably so. I know that 99.9% of the time my puggie comrades will halt a potentially successfull charge to hug a rock at the first sight of the enemy leaving my mech alone and the only target to be focused upon by the enemy.

Thier lack of commitment to a bolder tactic than hidey pokey validates their lack of tactical flexability.

"see! that guy who wanted to charge died alone"

They never seem to grasp that I was willing to be the designated casualty.Willing to spearpoint an assault to allow the team to win the fight.

Because it would never occur to many solo puggies that sacrifice can lead to victory.

pwnface, on 08 December 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

If you walk into 8 enemies by yourself, it is kind of your own fault for having really terrible awareness.

The only situational awareness you need when pugging is the rest of your team will dive under a rock the moment they see an enemy. It doesn't matter if you have the forces needed to steamroll over them.It doesn't matter if they don't see you coming. The only thing that matters is Puggie group conciousness = instinct to crawl under a rock before fighting.

Puggies will toss aside a brilliant flanking charge almost every time and opt to play peek a boo wasting opertunity after opertunity to win a decisive victory in favor of losing more slowly.

[PurpleNinja]

Jun Watarase, on 09 December 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

Thinking man's shooter? What? I mean, i can usually afk for at least 5 minutes every match till people do more than poke at each other...

We're not playing the same game, I guess.
Most of my matches are over before we reach the 5 minute mark.
Unless it's Alpine, of course.

[SaltBeef]

LordNothing, on 09 December 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

i dont own a dumb phone let alone a smart phone. instead i have a stack of old cb radios that nobody uses and hand them out to all my friends. unfortunately cats cant hold down the transmit button too well.

But the issue with that is everyone from Maine to Tokyo can listen in on your CB conversation.
I just read an article that smartphones will be phased out by 5 yrs time for Artificial Intelligence Devices.