52 replies to this topic

[TheCharlatan]

I'm really curious to see if the Hunchie will live up to the hype... or just turn out to be a fragile mech.

[Widowmaker1981]

mariomanz28, on 10 December 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

This is what gets me. PGI said we would never have clan tech on IS mechs and then they go an release the IIC that are...ding ding ding clan tech on IS Mechs.

All the customization of an IS mech all with the benefits of clan tech, that was one of the whole balancing points of locking all the equipment on clan mechs.

Nope. This is Clan tech on Clan mechs. Just that they are Battlemechs and not Omnimechs. Clan tech on IS mechs is different - for example using a CXL on a BNC-3M (i wish, lol).

You can most certainly argue releasing Clan Battlemechs was and is a mistake though - i think it is a massive mistake that is going to end up obsoleting Omnimechs, because Battlemech open construction is so much better than Omnimech hardpoint lego mech system. IS - Clan balance can be worked on by equipment stats, but Battlemech - Omnimech balance is WAY off right now, and equipment stats don't and can't have any effect on it.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 December 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[mariomanz28]

Well if you really want to get technical these would be Star League mechs not clans since the chassis were around before the clans left and they refit them with clan tech. You can't argue this is basically mixtech which wasn't supposed to happen in MWO.

They just need to go ahead and let IS mount clan tech and be done with it.

[Jzaltheral]

Well, I guess I need to order this pack. Hunchback Hill Humping is just too much alliteration for me to ignore.

[Kaeb Odellas]

GG Inner sphere. GG.

[Widowmaker1981]

mariomanz28, on 10 December 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

Well if you really want to get technical these would be Star League mechs not clans since the chassis were around before the clans left and they refit them with clan tech. You can't argue this is basically mixtech which wasn't supposed to happen in MWO.

They just need to go ahead and let IS mount clan tech and be done with it.

Nope. Mixtech is Mixtech. This is not that. None of these mechs would be able to use an IS LPL or IS PPC or IS ACs even if they wanted to (and .. man.. they do want to) Mixtech is taking the best of both worlds, these mechs are Clan tech only.

And yes. IS weaponry is in some cases as good or better than Clan weaponry, imo.

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 December 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

Nope. This is Clan tech on Clan mechs. Just that they are Battlemechs and not Omnimechs. Clan tech on IS mechs is different - for example using a CXL on a BNC-3M (i wish, lol).

You can most certainly argue releasing Clan Battlemechs was and is a mistake though - i think it is a massive mistake that is going to end up obsoleting Omnimechs, because Battlemech open construction is so much better than Omnimech hardpoint lego mech system. IS - Clan balance can be worked on by equipment stats, but Battlemech - Omnimech balance is WAY off right now, and equipment stats don't and can't have any effect on it.

Bah, they are limited by hardpoint amount and hardpoint localization, if some particular mech has all the important hardpoints on one side just shoot ST and be done with it. And even if some mechs come optimized from the start so what? What if you could customize Timberwolf, how would you make it better? Remove Ferro, downgrade engine to XL350 and put 2 more heat sinks? Yeah, that much more OP. Or downgrade engine to XL300 and put even more guns? There's Night Gyr for that, just you wait. Dire Wolf with XL400 and Endo steel upgrade? Bam, Kodiak, a BattleMech just like IIC mechs so to speak.

Edited by kapusta11, 10 December 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 10 December 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

Bah, they are limited by hardpoint amount and hardpoint localization, if some particular mech has all the important hardpoints on one side just shoot ST and be done with it. And even if some mechs come optimized from the start so what? What if you could customize Timberwolf, how would you make it better? Remove Ferro, downgrade engine to XL350 and put 2 more heat sinks? Yeah, that much more OP. Or downgrade engine to XL300 and put even more guns? There's Night Gyr for that, just you wait.

I could do actual non screwed Ballistic builds on it for a start - XL350 is 4.5 extra tons (5.5 with the heatsink) for a 6kph loss in speed. At the moment if you want to do a twin big ballistic on the Timby it has to be RT and RA. There is no space in the legs and head for ammo due to ES/FF crits, so you have to put a chunk of the ammo in the LEFT side of the mech. Since ammo is used in a particular, unchangeable order (CT-RT-LT-RA-LA-RL-LL-HD) that means that toward the end of the game your ammo will be in the left side of the mech, and your guns will be in the right side - meaning you just completely lost the advantage of the C-XL, because regardless of which ST you lose, your mech is useless (no guns, or no ammo for your guns). GOOD ballistic builds put ammo in the legs/head because it is used last, and therefore if you lose a ST later in the game, you always still have ammo in the legs.

Don't even get me started on other Clan mechs... ever tried a twin UAC20 Warhawk? literally you have 1 ton of ammo you dont lose if someone takes off your RT, because of the entire LT being taken by DHS, and again no leg or head space due to FF crits. Again effectively ruining the advantage of the C-XL. Wonder why such a high percentage of Clan mechs run energy boats? Because these ammo placement issues are impossible to work around.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 December 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[BigBenn]

"What is understood need not be discussed" - Van Halen's Sammy Hagar circa 1996, and some deep thinking philosopher from thousands of years ago.

[Darian DelFord]

I am really scared of the Quirks the Jenner IIC is going to get, really scared

They are all going to be negative

Just playing my Oxide since the Dec 1st patch and OMG. I could not imagine a Jenner with 2 more SRm 4 launchers faster speed and more ammo. OMG

Edited by Darian DelFord, 10 December 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 December 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

I could do actual non screwed Ballistic builds on it for a start - XL350 is 4.5 extra tons (5.5 with the heatsink) for a 6kph loss in speed. At the moment if you want to do a twin big ballistic on the Timby it has to be RT and RA. There is no space in the legs and head for ammo due to ES/FF crits, so you have to put a chunk of the ammo in the LEFT side of the mech. Since ammo is used in a particular, unchangeable order (CT-RT-LT-RA-LA-RL-LL-HD) that means that toward the end of the game your ammo will be in the left side of the mech, and your guns will be in the right side - meaning you just completely lost the advantage of the C-XL, because regardless of which ST you lose, your mech is useless (no guns, or no ammo for your guns). GOOD ballistic builds put ammo in the legs/head because it is used last, and therefore if you lose a ST later in the game, you always still have ammo in the legs.

Don't even get me started on other Clan mechs... ever tried a twin UAC20 Warhawk? literally you have 1 ton of ammo you dont lose if someone takes off your RT, because of the entire LT being taken by DHS, and again no leg or head space due to FF crits. Again effectively ruining the advantage of the C-XL. Wonder why such a high percentage of Clan mechs run energy boats? Because these ammo placement issues are impossible to work around.

That's awesome! Black Python is waiting to be released, production year 3051, since we're in a game year 3055 right now it shouldn't take too long. Same thing with Kodiak if you still want twin UAC20 with ammo in the legs and loads of "backup" lasers.

Edited by kapusta11, 10 December 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Juodas Varnas, on 09 December 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

That fricking hunchback...

GG CLOSE

Evil alien invader mech...I hate laservomit...but that is just too SICK..

Sigilum Sanctum, on 09 December 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

Maybe I'm being petty, but it really bothers me that the Jenner IICs cockpit is the EXACT same as the regular Jenner, even though the IIC just has a flat pane instead of the triple windows the regular Jenner has.

Jenner IIC Exterior: http://i.imgur.com/Kdl6wLq.png

Jenner IIC Cockpit: http://i.imgur.com/3hv8Rzb.jpg

Jenner Cockpit: https://i.ytimg.com/...xresdefault.jpg

Bonus shot of godtier weapon placement on the all energy Hunchie IIC: http://i.imgur.com/dJhqrlI.png

tro`le panel may be the same, rest seems different. And hey, if you want your Jenner to have visibility issues that makes a Shadowhawk look good, that's up to you.

[CDLord HHGD]

Lame, there should be some cockpit updates to better reflect their Clan rebuilds and yeah, window placement.

[Bishop Steiner]

mariomanz28, on 10 December 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

Well if you really want to get technical these would be Star League mechs not clans since the chassis were around before the clans left and they refit them with clan tech. You can't argue this is basically mixtech which wasn't supposed to happen in MWO.

They just need to go ahead and let IS mount clan tech and be done with it.

If you really want to be technical, you are wrong.

IIC Mechs are ground up built of ClanTech. Many even are different tonnage than their "parent" versions. A Hunchback IIC is to a Hunchback what an a-10 Thunderbolt is to a p47 Thunderbolt.

The clans do refit IS chassis and Star LEague one s with Clan Tech for their solahma and garrison forces, those are simply referred to as (C) variants of an IS mech. IIC is a totally different thing.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/IIC

Also, even if you were right (and you aren't) 300 yr more advanced super civilization putting their tech on obsolete chassis is not the same as 300 yrs inferior civilization figuring out how to repair and maintain super civilization technology. When IS units DID try slapping Clan Tech on, or using whole clan mechs,they ended up broken down and in the garage until pretty much the 3060s.

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 10 December 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

That's awesome! Black Python is waiting to be released, production year 3051, since we're in a game year 3055 right now it shouldn't take too long. Same thing with Kodiak if you still want twin UAC20 with ammo in the legs and loads of "backup" lasers.

Exactly my point.. Battlemechs obsolete Omnimechs.. I don't think that is desirable. My personal answer would be to unlock endo, ferro, MASC and all DHS for all Omnis (yes, meaning dynamic crit placement for ES/FF) and leave engines and JJs locked as balance for the hardpoint swapping and to keep some of the Omni 'flavour' (a non jumping Summoner would be a bit wrong)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 December 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 December 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Exactly my point.. Battlemechs obsolete Omnimechs.. I don't think that is desirable. My personal answer would be to unlock endo, ferro, MASC and all DHS for all Omnis (yes, meaning dynamic crit placement for ES/FF) and leave engines and JJs locked as balance for the hardpoint swapping and to keep some of the Omni 'flavour' (a non jumping Summoner would be a bit wrong)

They can all be fully customizable, it is actually required in order to keep Omnis relevant as you said but the release of Caln BattleMechs was not a mistake, many of them are iconic mechs like again, Kodiak or Stone Rhino. And you can incentivise semi-stock loadouts and roles with quirks at any time, though before giving Clan mechs any buffs you have to balance IS and Clans first.

Edited by kapusta11, 10 December 2015 - 07:07 AM.

[Mechteric]

mariomanz28, on 10 December 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

This is what gets me. PGI said we would never have clan tech on IS mechs and then they go an release the IIC that are...ding ding ding clan tech on IS Mechs.

All the customization of an IS mech all with the benefits of clan tech, that was one of the whole balancing points of locking all the equipment on clan mechs.

I think you have no idea what these mechs really are in the universe.

They are clan mechs.

They are rooted in BattleTech's history as clan interpretations of the IS mechs.

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 10 December 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

They can all be fully customizable, it is actually required in order to keep Omnis relevant as you said but the release of Caln BattleMechs was not a mistake, many of them are iconic mechs. And you can incentivise semi-stock loadouts and roles with quirks at any time, though before giving Clan mechs any buffs you have to balance IS and Clans first.

You're not too good at this whole balance thing are you? If you unlock everything then Omnis are superior to Battlemechs and all the new mechs are obsoleted... there does need to be SOME balance to the pod swapping.

I just think that locked equipment as a balance point to superior tech worked pretty nicely, and allowed Clan tech to remain better for lore flavour without overall balance being terrible, and releasing Clan Battlemechs was a mistake** because now they cannot use that, and have to balance the tech itself on a 1 to 1 basis.

**from a balance / gameplay point of view, not a financial one - its obviously a money spinner for PGI

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 December 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

You're not too good at this whole balance thing are you? If you unlock everything then Omnis are superior to Battlemechs and all the new mechs are obsoleted... there does need to be SOME balance to the pod swapping.

I just think that locked equipment as a balance point to superior tech worked pretty nicely, and allowed Clan tech to remain better for lore flavour without overall balance being terrible, and releasing Clan Battlemechs was a mistake** because now they cannot use that, and have to balance the tech itself on a 1 to 1 basis.

**from a balance / gameplay point of view, not a financial one - its obviously a money spinner for PGI

Not this shіt again... There are already optimized clan Battlemechs that have all the necessary hardpoints:
http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=906
2B hardpoints in the arm, 4E in each side torso. Another variant has 1B in each arm.
http://www.solaris7....nfo.asp?ID=3559
4E in each arm, 1E in CT, ballistic and missile hardpoints in side torsos.There's one with 1B hardpoint in each ST as well.
http://www.solaris7....fo.asp?ID=14306
3E in each arm, 1E and 1B in each ST.

Edited by kapusta11, 10 December 2015 - 07:34 AM.

[mariomanz28]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 December 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

If you really want to be technical, you are wrong.

IIC Mechs are ground up built of ClanTech. Many even are different tonnage than their "parent" versions. A Hunchback IIC is to a Hunchback what an a-10 Thunderbolt is to a p47 Thunderbolt.

The clans do refit IS chassis and Star LEague one s with Clan Tech for their solahma and garrison forces, those are simply referred to as (C) variants of an IS mech. IIC is a totally different thing.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/IIC

Also, even if you were right (and you aren't) 300 yr more advanced super civilization putting their tech on obsolete chassis is not the same as 300 yrs inferior civilization figuring out how to repair and maintain super civilization technology. When IS units DID try slapping Clan Tech on, or using whole clan mechs,they ended up broken down and in the garage until pretty much the 3060s.

If they are built ground up of clan tech then why are they using the same cockpit as the IS variants? Hmm? Don't you think they would have improved that too considering they are a "300 year more advanced civilization"?

CapperDeluxe, on 10 December 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

I think you have no idea what these mechs really are in the universe.

They are clan mechs.

They are rooted in BattleTech's history as clan interpretations of the IS mechs.

Calling it a Clan Battlemech or an IS Battlemech is purely semantics as the principal is the same. Part of balancing clan tech was locking all the Clan's Mech's equipment. It's still mix tech in principal regardless of what you call the base chassis, clan or IS, they still work just like IS mechs but with the benefits of being able to swap engines, endo, ferro, and not having any locked components like heatsinks or jump jets while getting the benefits of using the lighter and smaller clan tech.

Just because you want to put your fingers in your ears and "la la la" to pretend it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't. They are still effectively giving IS like mechs the ability to mount clan tech and if you can't see that then you are just playing dumb.