Kraftwerkedup, on 13 December 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:
Definitely. If you compare us to Eve per say, theres the obvious Brawler/Sniper/Tackler roles, and if you watch some small fleet engagements, its pretty easy to tell who is doing what and why.
Ive watched alot of comp games of MWO on Twitch and Youtube of MWO. It looks like a hot mess.
Even if you know whats going on, its kind of like watching Hockey. Only, after the first goal, the goalie explodes, and the scoring team throws down their gloves and then murders the opposing team.
I see why people could enjoy it, but I see why people wouldnt as well. Where as you know the goalie is gonna tend the goal, the forwards are going to get in someones face, the rear might snipe at the net, things are so fluid in a MWO match, that the goalie might be infront of the forwards, and the forwards are tending the goal.
That can be exciting, but it can also be really obnoxious to watch.
Yep, I agree. People always assume that sports that are fun to play are also fun to watch. It's just not true. That's the issue with so-called extreme sports, and motor sports and also with martial arts. People who are into it can't believe that the rest of the world prefers to watch football and basketball. But people do prefer to watch football and basketball.
Talking specifically about esports, one huge advantage with CS:GO or CS:S as an esport is the game modes. This is something I've been whining about since day 1. Not only are MWO game modes more boring to play, but they're infinitely more boring to watch. CS:S and CS:GO is more fun to spectate, because you're looking at specific objectives that are very concrete. There's a bomb or there are hostages, and there's a dynamic where the terrorists are trying to plant the bomb or protect the hostages, and the counter-terrorists are trying to find and disarm the bomb or rescue the hostages and bring them to safety. It makes for a much more entertaining viewing experience, not least of all because a good player can sometimes outsmart his opponents even when outnumbered.
Capping in MWO is not only boring to do, but it's insanely boring to watch. People are literally standing on squares. And good luck trying to win a match by cap on Frozen city if you're outnumbered 1:4. At that point, outsmarting your opponents isn't possible, unless you're already up by 300 points.
Skirmish is even worse, because it's just a huge brawl with no context. It's like watching MMA team fights, where guys are basically engaging in technical street fights with 4 v 4 or 6 v 6 matches. It's super chaotic, and much like MWO, it often leads to roflstomps because taking out one or two opponents has a snowballing effect. And like MWO, it's really hard to commentate, because it's all about a huge brawl with no set objectives beyond "smash their faces". Thus, the commentary rarely amounts to anything useful.
Aresye Kerensky, on 13 December 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:
There isn't anything magical happening inside of comp that suddenly changes the mechs and their abilities. The problem where role warfare disappears in solo and group queue is you have 12 solos facing against 12 solos, with the only idea of teamwork being, "stick together."
Once again this is a TEAM game. Know how Krivvan plays light mechs in non-comp/casual games? He plays it EXACTLY the same. He scouts, puts up UAVs, and talks to his team over VOIP to feed them information. If needed, he provides ECM cover, or distracts an enemy assault away from the main force. How many players in light mechs even take a UAV, or (even less likely) scout, in your average solo/group game?
Each chassis (except for maybe the Vindicator) has its own, specific role in a match. It's not PGI's fault some tard decides to go scouting in a DWF.
I don't pretend to know much about comp play, because frankly it doesn't interest me very much. I've spectated a handful of matches. I think it's very important for MWO, I always support it. I even donated some money to the big tournament a while back, even though I wasn't playing or spectating.
That being said, I wasn't implying there's anything magical happening. The only magic I'm talking about is synergy between different roles and force multipliers. In its most basic form, it's like the classic fantasy RPG team with warriors, rogues, sorcerors, paladins and priests. There's synergy between them, to the point where going dungeon crawling without any kind of healer or tank is pointless. And in PVP MMORPG matches, the ability to identify and eliminate key individuals, such as healers and damage dealers, while avoiding tanks, is often a key to victory.
MWO just doesn't have the same level of synergy. This would become painfull obvious if there were no restrictions on tonnage or classes. If you could bring anything from 12 ACHs to 12 DWs, or 10 Timber Wolves and 2 Firestarters, or whatever other combination you can think of, then the game would change.
PGI's loosely defined roles of scout, brawler, support and assault are not as set in stone as roles in other games. A brawling Timber Wolf can also lay down support fire. An assault mech can also be a brawler. And the 4 classes (light, medium, heavy and assault) are not all as vital for success as the arche-types or roles in other games. You can win a match without bringing any medium mechs. A 55 ton medium mech isn't that different from a 60 ton heavy mech.
coe7, on 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:
Lots of assumptions, I just flat out disagree.
There were zero actual assumptions in my post. None. I was using the word "If" to examine other people's arguments.
"The sun is cold."
"If the sun is cold, then the earth would be cold."
That's not an assumption, really. It's just a counter-argument.
coe7, on 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:
It's players choice in pug match not to play their mechs to the fullest, not flaw of the system. The mechs do not gain magical powers when they go into a comp match, the exact same things that make these players play in that style enable them to do so in pug matches as well, but its very pointless, because people prefer to play 12vs12 solo deathball instead of organized play.
This argument is thrown around all the time by die-hard fans of any game, you have to realize. "The players just aren't playing right". Well, if the majority of players aren't playing the game right, it's not a problem with the players.
In other games, role warfare happens organically, because the rules of the game are very clear, and they very clearly do incentivize role warfare. You don't have to join a unit and have a drop commander to see role warfare, it happens practically all the time, at all levels of gameplay. Even among Tier 1 players (i.e. noobs in games where you start as Tier 1, then progress to Tier 2, Tier 3, etc)
Of course, people will still lose matches when they don't work as teams and don't properly use the synergy of different roles. But it's not like MWO, where people are just deathballing and looking for kills, without a clear understanding of what they're doing and what the other teammates are doing.
"Wtf, why is no one pushing?"
"The assaults should be pushing! They need to tank more!"
"My assault is an LRM-boat with XL engine! I can't push!"
"My assault is a Victor poptart! Where the **** are our light mechs? Why aren't they scouting?"
"My Adder is an ER PPC sniper!"
"My Urbanmech has 50 kph max speed!"
You don't see those conversations in other games that claim to have role warfare. The roles are clearly defined. You can look at a frigate and you know what a frigate does. You can look at an artillery tank and you know what it does. You can look at a DPS Priest and you'll know that it's a DPS Priest and not a healer. At least if those games are working the way they should.
coe7, on 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:
Thus born the whines that there is "no role warfare" in MWO when its actually very role based game. I think when the 4vs4 CW matches arrive and majority of players have their 4 friends in MWO, everyone especially those who have not played competitive MWO will be hit with the hard reality just how scary important scouting, firesupport, dps, angles, terrain, movement and all that **** will be when 4vs4 hit their heads flat on. Then it wont be just 1% exposed to these things, but everyone hitting the 4vs4 battlefield.
Trust me, there will be so much role warfare in those 4vs4 drops that you will be puking roles all over the place after that.
This is a bold statement, and I like it! Let's make a bet about it. If I'm wrong, if my skepticism is misplaced, then I'll be happy to be wrong, because MWO will be a much better game.
So let's bet. How long do you think it will take before 4v4 results in more role warfare and an enlightened playerbase? 2 months? 4 months? 6 months? We'll compare pug gameplay before and after and ee if there's any difference.
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