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Can You Have A Mwo E-Sport Without Roles?


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#21 EgoSlayer

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:10 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 13 December 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

I feel like there's a lot of assumptions going around on both sides of the fence.


Fair enough. But there are more facts and history supporting my above quote than thinking that the $100,000 prize pool is taking away from development.

Lets look at some history of Tournaments, most recently Major League Mechwarrior and MRBC. PGI's Cash outlay for both of those was....

$1,000.

Yet there are several thousand in prizes, because it's in the form of Mechs and MC.

Also Steam Launch. That had sponsors as well - Nvidia to the tune of a minimum of $1000 retail in the form of merchandise, and who knows who else. It's not hard to consider that Nvidia would be willing to provide much more support for something that will draw in a much larger audience.

The amount of cash in that $100,000 prize pool wasn't mentioned, but I would expect it to be a smaller percentage. I'd also expect the paying for travel for the finals to be one of the largest cash outlays of the whole thing. Which still doesn't take away from development because it's not taking the developer's time, nor is it preventing hiring more people.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 13 December 2015 - 11:22 PM.


#22 Kraftwerkedup

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:11 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 13 December 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:



To say there is zero role warfare in MWO is an exaggeration, but it's an acceptable one. There's a chasm of difference between MWO and F2P games like Armored Warfare, Star Conflict, etc, where you have role warfare even at the very lowest levels of gameplay, and everyone understands how it works after 1 hour of playing the game.


Definitely. If you compare us to Eve per say, theres the obvious Brawler/Sniper/Tackler roles, and if you watch some small fleet engagements, its pretty easy to tell who is doing what and why.

Ive watched alot of comp games of MWO on Twitch and Youtube of MWO. It looks like a hot mess.

Even if you know whats going on, its kind of like watching Hockey. Only, after the first goal, the goalie explodes, and the scoring team throws down their gloves and then murders the opposing team.

I see why people could enjoy it, but I see why people wouldnt as well. Where as you know the goalie is gonna tend the goal, the forwards are going to get in someones face, the rear might snipe at the net, things are so fluid in a MWO match, that the goalie might be infront of the forwards, and the forwards are tending the goal.

That can be exciting, but it can also be really obnoxious to watch.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 13 December 2015 - 11:11 PM.


#23 Aresye

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:15 PM

View PostTed Wayz, on 13 December 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

I can go on and on but it is tiring having to constantly explain things to you. Sorry you have been previously butthurt by my past posts and feel a need to reply even though you bring nothing to the table but "You should all believe I am a good player".

But feel free, I have time.


You aren't explaining anything. It's clear you have absolutely no clue on what the current competitive scene even entails, but since you seem to want to entertain me on your qualifications of, "Marked some targets with Raven, had people that wanted to play comp," allow me to retort:
- Currently running with SiG. Placed 2nd place in Season 6 NA Division B of MRBC.
- Organized from scratch, trained, and led the main competitive team within CWI. Participated in NBT with over 50 games and nearly 100 individual drops.
- Previously participated in MLMW with MercStar's primary team.

So once again (to any folks willing to listen), if you want to experience REAL role-warfare, and a depth to MWO's gameplay that you've not seen before, play comp. I'd personally recommend MRBC because you can join with little to no competitive experience and be placed in a division with other folks with little to no competitive experience. You rank up/down based on performance from there, so you don't even have to run 100% meta tryhard mode to have fun.

If that doesn't interest you, then why get bent out of shape over a tournament that pertains only to those that do?

View PostAlistair Winter, on 13 December 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

If role warfare isn't happening at any level of gameplay except the top 1% of players - the sort of players who have time to custom design mechs for a pre-determined gameplan and train together several times per week - then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.

There isn't anything magical happening inside of comp that suddenly changes the mechs and their abilities. The problem where role warfare disappears in solo and group queue is you have 12 solos facing against 12 solos, with the only idea of teamwork being, "stick together."

Once again this is a TEAM game. Know how Krivvan plays light mechs in non-comp/casual games? He plays it EXACTLY the same. He scouts, puts up UAVs, and talks to his team over VOIP to feed them information. If needed, he provides ECM cover, or distracts an enemy assault away from the main force. How many players in light mechs even take a UAV, or (even less likely) scout, in your average solo/group game?

Each chassis (except for maybe the Vindicator) has its own, specific role in a match. It's not PGI's fault some tard decides to go scouting in a DWF.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 13 December 2015 - 11:26 PM.


#24 Kraftwerkedup

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:20 PM

Interestingly this was moderately popular in the competitive gaming circles before things like the CPL existed.



Much slower, less mechs, not team based. Probably lent itself to E Sports a tad better than MWO would. E Sports really doesnt exist unless an audience is watching.

Then us:




I dont know I just dont think mechs lend themselves very well to E sports.

Seems like it should, it just doesnt tho.

#25 cSand

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:23 PM

100k is easy marketing budget I would think

I hardly imagine PGI is strapped for cashola

It's not like they are gonna fire developer staff or cut back man hours to fund the tournament Posted Image

#26 coe7

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 13 December 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

If role warfare isn't happening at any level of gameplay except the top 1% of players - the sort of players who have time to custom design mechs for a pre-determined gameplan and train together several times per week - then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.

If PGI's own team - the guys responsible for actually making the damn game - doesn't understand role warfare, then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.

To say there is zero role warfare in MWO is an exaggeration, but it's an acceptable one. There's a chasm of difference between MWO and F2P games like Armored Warfare, Star Conflict, etc, where you have role warfare even at the very lowest levels of gameplay, and everyone understands how it works after 1 hour of playing the game.


Lots of assumptions, I just flat out disagree.

It's players choice in pug match not to play their mechs to the fullest, not flaw of the system. The mechs do not gain magical powers when they go into a comp match, the exact same things that make these players play in that style enable them to do so in pug matches as well, but its very pointless, because people prefer to play 12vs12 solo deathball instead of organized play.

And I do not blame them for that, its much more fun to be the solo hero doing your own thing rather than wait for intel, make smart patient moves and sacrifice yourself for better of your team.

But here is what I think where me and you disagree, you want comp style of play, these intels, patient moves and sacrifices for better of team into your quickplay matches. I believe, and I'm pretty sure PGI realized this as well, no one in their right mind want to play comp style with all its drawbacks with 12 strangers. I dont generally like people I happen to drop into a PUG match, I'm there for cheap kills and easy CBILLS on mechs I want to try out. Just farming random cash with beer on my hand mercenary style.

Thus born the whines that there is "no role warfare" in MWO when its actually very role based game. I think when the 4vs4 CW matches arrive and majority of players have their 4 friends in MWO, everyone especially those who have not played competitive MWO will be hit with the hard reality just how scary important scouting, firesupport, dps, angles, terrain, movement and all that **** will be when 4vs4 hit their heads flat on. Then it wont be just 1% exposed to these things, but everyone hitting the 4vs4 battlefield.

Trust me, there will be so much role warfare in those 4vs4 drops that you will be puking roles all over the place after that.

#27 adamts01

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 12:12 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 13 December 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

If role warfare isn't happening at any level of gameplay except the top 1% of players - the sort of players who have time to custom design mechs for a pre-determined gameplan and train together several times per week - then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.

If PGI's own team - the guys responsible for actually making the damn game - doesn't understand role warfare, then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.


This sums it up nicely. ^^^^^

Even at the very top I see just as many teams running a deathball of brawlers. Role warfare is an option.

As far as group and solo que are concerned, where the VAST majority of players reside, a role mech is consistently out-performed by a direct fire dps machine.

#28 Alistair Winter

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 12:34 AM

View PostKraftwerkedup, on 13 December 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:

Definitely. If you compare us to Eve per say, theres the obvious Brawler/Sniper/Tackler roles, and if you watch some small fleet engagements, its pretty easy to tell who is doing what and why.
Ive watched alot of comp games of MWO on Twitch and Youtube of MWO. It looks like a hot mess.
Even if you know whats going on, its kind of like watching Hockey. Only, after the first goal, the goalie explodes, and the scoring team throws down their gloves and then murders the opposing team.
I see why people could enjoy it, but I see why people wouldnt as well. Where as you know the goalie is gonna tend the goal, the forwards are going to get in someones face, the rear might snipe at the net, things are so fluid in a MWO match, that the goalie might be infront of the forwards, and the forwards are tending the goal.
That can be exciting, but it can also be really obnoxious to watch.

Yep, I agree. People always assume that sports that are fun to play are also fun to watch. It's just not true. That's the issue with so-called extreme sports, and motor sports and also with martial arts. People who are into it can't believe that the rest of the world prefers to watch football and basketball. But people do prefer to watch football and basketball.

Talking specifically about esports, one huge advantage with CS:GO or CS:S as an esport is the game modes. This is something I've been whining about since day 1. Not only are MWO game modes more boring to play, but they're infinitely more boring to watch. CS:S and CS:GO is more fun to spectate, because you're looking at specific objectives that are very concrete. There's a bomb or there are hostages, and there's a dynamic where the terrorists are trying to plant the bomb or protect the hostages, and the counter-terrorists are trying to find and disarm the bomb or rescue the hostages and bring them to safety. It makes for a much more entertaining viewing experience, not least of all because a good player can sometimes outsmart his opponents even when outnumbered.

Capping in MWO is not only boring to do, but it's insanely boring to watch. People are literally standing on squares. And good luck trying to win a match by cap on Frozen city if you're outnumbered 1:4. At that point, outsmarting your opponents isn't possible, unless you're already up by 300 points.

Skirmish is even worse, because it's just a huge brawl with no context. It's like watching MMA team fights, where guys are basically engaging in technical street fights with 4 v 4 or 6 v 6 matches. It's super chaotic, and much like MWO, it often leads to roflstomps because taking out one or two opponents has a snowballing effect. And like MWO, it's really hard to commentate, because it's all about a huge brawl with no set objectives beyond "smash their faces". Thus, the commentary rarely amounts to anything useful.

View PostAresye Kerensky, on 13 December 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

There isn't anything magical happening inside of comp that suddenly changes the mechs and their abilities. The problem where role warfare disappears in solo and group queue is you have 12 solos facing against 12 solos, with the only idea of teamwork being, "stick together."
Once again this is a TEAM game. Know how Krivvan plays light mechs in non-comp/casual games? He plays it EXACTLY the same. He scouts, puts up UAVs, and talks to his team over VOIP to feed them information. If needed, he provides ECM cover, or distracts an enemy assault away from the main force. How many players in light mechs even take a UAV, or (even less likely) scout, in your average solo/group game?
Each chassis (except for maybe the Vindicator) has its own, specific role in a match. It's not PGI's fault some tard decides to go scouting in a DWF.

I don't pretend to know much about comp play, because frankly it doesn't interest me very much. I've spectated a handful of matches. I think it's very important for MWO, I always support it. I even donated some money to the big tournament a while back, even though I wasn't playing or spectating.

That being said, I wasn't implying there's anything magical happening. The only magic I'm talking about is synergy between different roles and force multipliers. In its most basic form, it's like the classic fantasy RPG team with warriors, rogues, sorcerors, paladins and priests. There's synergy between them, to the point where going dungeon crawling without any kind of healer or tank is pointless. And in PVP MMORPG matches, the ability to identify and eliminate key individuals, such as healers and damage dealers, while avoiding tanks, is often a key to victory.

MWO just doesn't have the same level of synergy. This would become painfull obvious if there were no restrictions on tonnage or classes. If you could bring anything from 12 ACHs to 12 DWs, or 10 Timber Wolves and 2 Firestarters, or whatever other combination you can think of, then the game would change.

PGI's loosely defined roles of scout, brawler, support and assault are not as set in stone as roles in other games. A brawling Timber Wolf can also lay down support fire. An assault mech can also be a brawler. And the 4 classes (light, medium, heavy and assault) are not all as vital for success as the arche-types or roles in other games. You can win a match without bringing any medium mechs. A 55 ton medium mech isn't that different from a 60 ton heavy mech.


View Postcoe7, on 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

Lots of assumptions, I just flat out disagree.

There were zero actual assumptions in my post. None. I was using the word "If" to examine other people's arguments.
"The sun is cold."
"If the sun is cold, then the earth would be cold."
That's not an assumption, really. It's just a counter-argument.

View Postcoe7, on 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

It's players choice in pug match not to play their mechs to the fullest, not flaw of the system. The mechs do not gain magical powers when they go into a comp match, the exact same things that make these players play in that style enable them to do so in pug matches as well, but its very pointless, because people prefer to play 12vs12 solo deathball instead of organized play.

This argument is thrown around all the time by die-hard fans of any game, you have to realize. "The players just aren't playing right". Well, if the majority of players aren't playing the game right, it's not a problem with the players.

In other games, role warfare happens organically, because the rules of the game are very clear, and they very clearly do incentivize role warfare. You don't have to join a unit and have a drop commander to see role warfare, it happens practically all the time, at all levels of gameplay. Even among Tier 1 players (i.e. noobs in games where you start as Tier 1, then progress to Tier 2, Tier 3, etc)

Of course, people will still lose matches when they don't work as teams and don't properly use the synergy of different roles. But it's not like MWO, where people are just deathballing and looking for kills, without a clear understanding of what they're doing and what the other teammates are doing.
"Wtf, why is no one pushing?"
"The assaults should be pushing! They need to tank more!"
"My assault is an LRM-boat with XL engine! I can't push!"
"My assault is a Victor poptart! Where the **** are our light mechs? Why aren't they scouting?"
"My Adder is an ER PPC sniper!"
"My Urbanmech has 50 kph max speed!"

You don't see those conversations in other games that claim to have role warfare. The roles are clearly defined. You can look at a frigate and you know what a frigate does. You can look at an artillery tank and you know what it does. You can look at a DPS Priest and you'll know that it's a DPS Priest and not a healer. At least if those games are working the way they should.


View Postcoe7, on 13 December 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

Thus born the whines that there is "no role warfare" in MWO when its actually very role based game. I think when the 4vs4 CW matches arrive and majority of players have their 4 friends in MWO, everyone especially those who have not played competitive MWO will be hit with the hard reality just how scary important scouting, firesupport, dps, angles, terrain, movement and all that **** will be when 4vs4 hit their heads flat on. Then it wont be just 1% exposed to these things, but everyone hitting the 4vs4 battlefield.

Trust me, there will be so much role warfare in those 4vs4 drops that you will be puking roles all over the place after that.

This is a bold statement, and I like it! Let's make a bet about it. If I'm wrong, if my skepticism is misplaced, then I'll be happy to be wrong, because MWO will be a much better game.

So let's bet. How long do you think it will take before 4v4 results in more role warfare and an enlightened playerbase? 2 months? 4 months? 6 months? We'll compare pug gameplay before and after and ee if there's any difference.

#29 Lily from animove

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 02:37 AM

I don't think it needs roles, yet MWO needs a wide variety of different tactics being possible so that the E sport gameplay isn't a stale boring gameplay with the same configs all the time.

#30 adamts01

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 03:05 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 14 December 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

"Wtf, why is no one pushing?"
"The assaults should be pushing! They need to tank more!"
"My assault is an LRM-boat with XL engine! I can't push!"
"My assault is a Victor poptart! Where the **** are our light mechs? Why aren't they scouting?"
"My Adder is an ER PPC sniper!"
"My Urbanmech has 50 kph max speed!"

So let's bet. How long do you think it will take before 4v4 results in more role warfare and an enlightened playerbase? 2 months? 4 months? 6 months? We'll compare pug gameplay before and after and ee if there's any difference.

LOL, every match ever.

View PostLily from animove, on 14 December 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

I don't think it needs roles, yet MWO needs a wide variety of different tactics being possible so that the E sport gameplay isn't a stale boring gameplay with the same configs all the time.


There are a ton of different tactics. Brawler team, range team, LRM team with spotters. But it all takes more coordination than you'll ever see outside of good 12 mans.


I think that each weight needs a specific skill tree. There isn't much difference between a 75 ton and 80 ton mech, but they should make all assaults slower, much tankier and heavier gunned. I really like the proposed sensor and ECM changes.... but...PGI.... The smaller radar profile would have given lights a better role as sneaky scouts or assassins. I hope that still makes it in.

#31 H I A S

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 03:27 AM

There are roles in MWO and most of the Mechs field in 2 or 3 at the same Time. Blockers, Brawlers, Herraser, Scouts, Supresser, Longrange and so on.
Scouting is elementary to do well in comp.

Sry for my bad english.

Edited by arivio, 14 December 2015 - 03:42 AM.


#32 Lily from animove

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 03:52 AM

View Postadamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

LOL, every match ever.



There are a ton of different tactics. Brawler team, range team, LRM team with spotters. But it all takes more coordination than you'll ever see outside of good 12 mans.



and how many of these are valid and working in competitive envirnment?

and generalising roles by the mechs classification isn't the way to go, a GAR is just 5t more than a TBR. and a 35t mech hardly lighter than a 40t mech. the roles need to be mech dependend. and EBJ has an entire different tole than a TBR. At leats by TT and its design. While a ravens role totally alters by the way of it's equip, 2 LL raven vs a huggin. fixing roles to chassis or classes will immediately limit tactical choices and defines a tighter meta.

The game needs a wide range of possibilities from which player can develop tactics. otherwise you end up in a rather boring tank + support + DD fashioned style which will make MWO not much interesting to be like the other Esports in a niche game skin.

#33 Tarogato

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 03:53 AM

View PostTed Wayz, on 13 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

So how about we have lights that function as lights and assaults that function as assaults instead of everything as DPS? The game as a whole would benefit.


I find it very odd that you imply that lights function as assaults and heavies function as lights. When's the last time you held open ground in a firing line in a Firestarter or went backstabbing heavies and knifefighting lights with your Dire Wolf?

The roles are quite well-defined in MWO, in my opinion.

1. Lights / Scouts
-- trading lights (like the RVN, PNT, potentially CDA, etc)
-- brawler/knifefighting lights (like the FS9-A, ACH with SPL, some WLF, JR7-O)
-- harassing/skirmishing lights (like the FS9-S, some WLF, JR7-F, CDA)
-- support lights (like the SDR, MLX, UM, KFX)

2. Brawlers
-- anything that needs close range in order to work effectively, usually survivable and usually equipped with SRMs, AC/20, MPLs, cSPLs, stuff like that. AS7, CN9s, GRFs, some WVRs, some HBKs, some TDRs, GHRs, BL-KNTs, SHD-2D2, splat/wubCrows.

3. Skirmishers
-- very mobile mechs with midrange that can reposition and offer their firepower where it is needed. Usually MPLs, cMPLs, MLs, cERMLs, AC5/10 - can apply damage quickly with little facetime. Includes most light mechs, but also includes fast mediums like the BJ-1X, CRB, CDA, and fast heavies such as the SMN and DRG.

4. Fire support
-- anything that can't necessarily hold its own, but can dish out damage when ignored. Usually because of excessive facetime. Examples include most dakka mechs like WVR-6R/7D, JM6, DRG, RFL, SHD-2H, BJ-1, QKD-IV4, dakka DWF/KGC/MAL/BNC, sometimes extreme range lasers, some lights like LPL RVN. Also LRMs.

5. Front line/trading mechs
-- any survivable mech that is capable soaking up damage for the team to initiate trades and can make good trades in return. Usually gaussvomit, laservomit, such as the TBR, EBJ, TDR, CTF, HBR, DWF, BNC, EXE, some MLRs, some mediums like the WVR, ENF, SCR. These are the bread and butter mech role. During the poptart era these mechs were the CTFs, VTRs, HGNs, SHDs, BNCs.

6. Poptarts
-- relies on JJs to do their most effective poking. Includes PNTs, BJ-3, some NVAs, VND, CTF, SMN, some SHC, the old meta VTR and HGN, etc. Often equipped with projectile weapons, but not necessarily.

#34 Mawai

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 04:01 AM

View PostZolaz, on 13 December 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Soccer is more entertaining to watch than MWO.


LOL. Soccer is an extremely popular sport around the world. It is primarily North America where it is much less popular. People actually LIKE to watch "football" so I don't think your comment means what you think it does :)

#35 adamts01

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 04:10 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 14 December 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:


and how many of these are valid and working in competitive envirnment?

and generalising roles by the mechs classification isn't the way to go, a GAR is just 5t more than a TBR. and a 35t mech hardly lighter than a 40t mech. the roles need to be mech dependend. and EBJ has an entire different tole than a TBR. At leats by TT and its design. While a ravens role totally alters by the way of it's equip, 2 LL raven vs a huggin. fixing roles to chassis or classes will immediately limit tactical choices and defines a tighter meta.

The game needs a wide range of possibilities from which player can develop tactics. otherwise you end up in a rather boring tank + support + DD fashioned style which will make MWO not much interesting to be like the other Esports in a niche game skin.



None of them work outside of comp. It's always best to bring med range, high dps direct fire. I'm just saying there are roles available.

I know there's not much difference between 75 tons and 80. I even mentioned exactly that. Physically it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't matter if it would help gameplay.

Even with some pretty severe class specific bonuses there is so much customization that it'll never be a typical role game.

#36 adamts01

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 04:15 AM

View PostTarogato, on 14 December 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:


I find it very odd that you imply that lights function as assaults and heavies function as lights. When's the last time you held open ground in a firing line in a Firestarter or went backstabbing heavies and knifefighting lights with your Dire Wolf?

The roles are quite well-defined in MWO, in my opinion.



There's no reason not to take 12 Timberwolves with MPL and ML. Except on the largest of maps on conquest they'll beat everything. A team can do well with a mixed bag of mechs but they will absolutely do better with 12 identical builds. I see that as a problem that needs some clever solutions.

#37 Lily from animove

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 04:57 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 14 December 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

Yep, I agree. People always assume that sports that are fun to play are also fun to watch. It's just not true.


they need to be fun to watch to create a proper base having interest in them

#38 Johnny Z

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 05:07 AM

View Postadamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:



There's no reason not to take 12 Timberwolves with MPL and ML. Except on the largest of maps on conquest they'll beat everything. A team can do well with a mixed bag of mechs but they will absolutely do better with 12 identical builds. I see that as a problem that needs some clever solutions.


The sim will answer those questions. Like agility caps to heavies etc.

This recent update improved the scene quite a bit.

#39 adamts01

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 05:19 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 14 December 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

The sim will answer those questions. Like agility caps to heavies etc.

This recent update improved the scene quite a bit.

My OP timby was slightly toned down. Assaults still need a little love, their que is hurting. Maybe an upgrade, like artemis or ferro, that adds armor plates with a movement penalty. That could be cool. That gives them a "tank" role if they want it. Maybe give mediums an option of extra speed coupled with worse cooling. That could make them quick light hunters but less effective against big guys.

#40 Tombstoner

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 07:23 AM

View PostZolaz, on 13 December 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Soccer is more entertaining to watch than MWO.

Puppy bowl during the U.S. super bowl half time is more fun. Console soccer or pee wee soccer is also more entertaining.

E-sports is a nich within a nich. One that PGI wants to exploit to grow there nich game.... what could go wrong?





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