57 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Naelbis, on 13 December 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Russ needs to stick to running the overall company and hire someone else to run the game.

or leave altogether.

MauttyKoray, on 13 December 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

The tournament crap just disappoints me. There's all this E-sport bullcrap talk and I thought we were over this. Now the ugly child rears its head again and they're having a tournament with a prize pool of $100,000?! Great to know why development is moving so slowly, that 100 grand could probably make a decent chunk of funding for some more development costs.

If they want to have E-sport focus at one point, sure whatever, but now isn't the time. When the game still needs heavy balancing from the rushed botching that occured post-IGP in a half assed attempt to balance the IS with Clans, there should not be any focus on a tournament with real money prizes.

all that will happen is ppl will cheat their way to the top.

[Tombstoner]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 December 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

or leave altogether.



all that will happen is ppl will cheat their way to the top.

People do that now... wave $100,000 in prize money and the worst of the worst will be drawn from the darkest depths of gaming. Make it all in game/non transferable Items/cash different story.

[Johnny Z]

Tombstoner, on 14 December 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

People do that now... wave $100,000 in prize money and the worst of the worst will be drawn from the darkest depths of gaming. Make it all in game/non transferable Items/cash different story.

Lol I have to agree.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Tombstoner, on 14 December 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

People do that now... wave $100,000 in prize money and the worst of the worst will be drawn from the darkest depths of gaming. Make it all in game/non transferable Items/cash different story.

worse itll be ppl who dont give a half a **** when they get banned for it or when they leave the whole tourney a crumbled mess in their wake

[Aresye]

The general gist of the role warfare argument seems to be:

- Players would rather have hard-locked, forced roles given to their mechs, rather than allowing personal play customization and preference to be the main deciding factor.

In other words, instead of players being able to customize a wider variety of mechs to support their chosen role for the team (what we have now), you'd rather have hard-locked roles for certain mechs.that instead forces the majority of players to not take entirely chassis at all.

So basically: Have PGI shove it down our throats like Infotech. Sounds like a fantastic idea!

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 14 December 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Khobai]

MWO has quite a few problems to overcome before esports is possible

1) maps and gamemodes suck. hardly any variation in gameplay. no reason to fight in different parts of the map. and the objective is always the same: kill the enemy team. All gamemodes are basically just skirmish.

2) game balance is atrocious right now. weapon and mech balance is a mess. theres no role warfare whatsoever and heavy mechs are the absolute dominant weight class.

3) 12v12 is simply too many players to have adequate commentary. They need to bring back 8v8 for esports. Even 8v8 is pretty hectic for commentators but at least proper commentary is possible then.

4) game is simply not entertaining to spectate. watching someone alphastrike a bunch of lasers isnt going to captivate a crowd. Theres no skillplay involved in that. They need to drastically increase the skill curve of the game in order to making it more entertaining to watch.... people watch esports to see celebrity players do amazing things... not just press the alpha strike key, anyone can do that.

5) wheres the prize money gonna come from? whats the venue for the tournament? game needs sponsers to put up prize money. Plus a venue like MLG. Those are contacts that PGI has to develop... its not just something that happens overnight.

Suffice to say, MWO breaking into the esports scene anytime soon is a pipedream at best.

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[Shismar]

The fun in E-Sports is not in the watching but in the playing. But I think the young players don't know any better and some of the old ones forgot.

PGI though seems to get it backwards too. First you introduce leader boards in your game for everyone to play competitively and then you focus the competition in E-Sports events.

Whichever, I wish PGI all the best of luck with their world championship. If it leaves us casual player with a decent E-Sports infrastructure for every day gaming, I am happy.

[Mystere]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 December 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

So basically: Have PGI shove it down our throats like Infotech. Sounds like a fantastic idea!

I'm going to have to disagree here. Infotech should be rammed down every player's throat.

[cSand]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 December 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

The general gist of the role warfare argument seems to be:

- Players would rather have hard-locked, forced roles given to their mechs, rather than allowing personal play customization and preference to be the main deciding factor.

In other words, instead of players being able to customize a wider variety of mechs to support their chosen role for the team (what we have now), you'd rather have hard-locked roles for certain mechs.that instead forces the majority of players to not take entirely chassis at all.

So basically: Have PGI shove it down our throats like Infotech. Sounds like a fantastic idea!

Yea I agree

I dunno what some people are doing, but in most of the games I am playing people are generally playing roles - skirmisher, brawler, tank, fire support, scouts/harrasser/distraction - in a variety of mechs.

I don't see the problem here, and having PGI dictate my mech's role to me would be a deal breaker. IE, I play scout and skirmisher in my QKD 4G as my preferred play style in that mech, putting in a huge engine and favourable weapons. Other people play these same mechs differently.

Customization and freedom is one of the things that makes this game great IMO. Clamping that down cause "mraaaah we need moar roles" is silly and robs this game of one of the most fun aspects. And sorry, just cause I don't always run "optimal mechs" for that role as dicated by forum neckbeardies, doesn't mean I am not effective in playing my way in the chassis of my choice.

I play to my own strengths as a player and that requires me to be able to customize chassis that work for me, and not have the game tell me "this is how you play a Cataphract." And yes I play with high level players before anyone gets their tier-peen out to slap me with.

As far as the esports thing...

I dunno, I quite enjoyed watching a recent tournament with I think SJR and another unit (EMP?) battling a best of 7 or something on Mining Colony. It was pretty good! So, I see no reason why PGI shouldn't pursue this. I appreciate the vision of making MWO bigger than it is, exposing it to more people, and who knows maybe they will take a chance and it will take off and be a great success.

Some of you would have MWO sit in its little walled garden forever, with a few thousand players just staying in one spot. Small mindedness got nobody anywhere, ever. I respect the fact that they are taking a chance with this game so they may as well go all in. All the power to em.

I say go for it, and I hope it succeeds. Screw all the haters.

Edited by cSand, 14 December 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Eldagore, on 13 December 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Who is fronting this 100K worth of money? PGI? Or some other source?

Clearly someone with more money than brains

[Tombstoner]

Shismar, on 14 December 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

The fun in E-Sports is not in the watching but in the playing. But I think the young players don't know any better and some of the old ones forgot.

PGI though seems to get it backwards too. First you introduce leader boards in your game for everyone to play competitively and then you focus the competition in E-Sports events.

Whichever, I wish PGI all the best of luck with their world championship. If it leaves us casual player with a decent E-Sports infrastructure for every day gaming, I am happy.

All PGI had to do is make a button called Solaris within that you have the L,M,H,A only class where your matched 1-1, 2-2, 3-3, 4-4. Then have the unlimited version where you take what you want. Use the ranking system from international chess and your done. Everyone fights for the Daily, weekly , monthly, season cup..... Make 3 maps to start with and roll out more over time. E-sports for MWO not that hard a concept.... start small and build later....don't take your main game and go here... its not gonna work for an IP built to be a minimally viable product. Later on you can have more advanced forms of mwo e-sports.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Well my issue isnt that the roles are or arent hardlocked, or carrot and stick approach. Its thats it doesnt feel meaningful, even at a high level of play.

No one looks at a mech and thinks "hah this is a great scout! im gonna be a scout!"

They look at a mech and think "well since we have to take 3 lights, which light avoids damage and does damage the best"

I dont think that JUST because youre in a light mech, skirting the edges of the death ball and providing UAVs so your team can adjust to the enemies death ball that youre a "scout".

Youre doing the best with what you have. If there were no limits, I dont think high level play would include anything but brawlers and snipers, which are essentially short and long range versions of each other, and most sniper builds can double as a brawler in a pinch.

LRMs are still pretty much totally avoided. Scouting takes place in a tight area on tight maps. Its not like "Oh man they went G8 instead of A2." and you have to waltz over to a new position 500meters away because your scouts located the enemy.

Your "role" is more like a "niche"

But thats my personal opinion.

You dont play a "role" you fill a "niche" when needed. Any mech can be a scout, or a brawler, or a sniper, in a pinch. The maps are small, ranges short, mechs slow and lumbering for the most part. At any moment in a match you can be "the scout", even in a Banshee or an Atlas. You can be a "sniper" in a Hunchback. You can be a "brawler" in an Arctic Cheetah. You can fill several niches in a single match when needed. Thats what makes high level play, high level play.

However, that to me, is not "role warfare" as pitched, and its also super boring to watch.

Again, just my opinion. I love playing with and against comp teams at a high level of play, but like Baseball, I love to play it, hate to watch it. Its not enjoyable, or cathartic.

I used to be in the civil air patrol and had a pilots license. I love to fly. Id love to be good enough to "Air race".

I am bored to tears watching an air race. And so are bazillions of other people.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 14 December 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Mech "slaughter ball" would be awesome.

Ball spawns in the middle, anyone can pick it up, you have to take it to the opposing teams goal. Dropdecks with 4 "lives". Lights for offense and scoring, mediums for escorts, heavies and assaults for goal tending.

THAT would be enjoyable to watch. People doing the same thing, all match long, so you can focus on if one individual player is good, or bad, and then root for them.

Though thats just what I enjoy, maybe everyone else would hate that.

[fat4eyes]

IMHO the spectator mode is still the biggest hurdle to making MWO watchable. It just doesn't show well the probing and maneuvering that happens before the big decisive clash. It should have an overlay that's a no fog of war view of the battlemap, with clearly visible health bars (maybe a condensed form of the HTAL display) over the mechs icons and different icons for different mech weights. Maybe make the mech icons blink when they're taking hits.

What is common in all good spectator sports is that the audience SEES EVERYTHING that's happening, even though the players themselves may not. Of course the existing spectator in-mech view would still be present, to show the visceral nature of the combat, though this shouldn't be the main way the game is displayed (in the same way that the first-person car camera is not the primary camera used in motorsports broadcasts).

Being able to hear what the teams are saying during the fight would be great too, as this video shows. Even if you don't understand the language, you can hear the strategies and tension as the game is being played. Maybe put in a broadcast delay to bleep out the inevitable swearing (or just assume everyone's an adult ) and avoid stream cheating.

As for roles, well, they do exist, it's just hard to see who's doing what in the current spectator mode. You can't tell me that the 2ERLL Raven plays the same role as the MPL Firestarter, or that the LPL Banshee/Battlemaster has the same role as the AC20 King Crab.

I forgot to add: Sharable match replays (like Warthunder's) for analysis after the match. Would be good learning tools for the rest of the community too.

Edited by fat4eyes, 14 December 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

So much like^

[Ted Wayz]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 December 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

The general gist of the role warfare argument seems to be:

- Players would rather have hard-locked, forced roles given to their mechs, rather than allowing personal play customization and preference to be the main deciding factor.

In other words, instead of players being able to customize a wider variety of mechs to support their chosen role for the team (what we have now), you'd rather have hard-locked roles for certain mechs.that instead forces the majority of players to not take entirely chassis at all.

So basically: Have PGI shove it down our throats like Infotech. Sounds like a fantastic idea!

Again you miss the point by trying to make an interpretation.

Look at the current reward system. Look at which mechs are used the most frequently. Is there any surprise there?

What do you think the delta will be between the two teams competing for the "championship", both in mechs and load outs?

Wouldn't it be great to see a commando in a final because it actually had utility that could not be duplicated by a heavy with lazers? Wouldn't it be great to see a close support medium that could not be duplicated by a heavy with lazers? Wouldn't it be great to see an Assault tank that couldn't be duplicated by a heavy with lazers?

The games that are interesting to watch are the ones where the players each have a role and their ability to execute those roles results in success. The very best ones to watch are the ones with a sheer variety of combinations that can be successful results in innovative strategies.

Right now I am sure a good number of players can predict, depending on game mode and tonnage limitations, the mechs we will see, their load outs, and the strategy that will be used to "win", while we all lose by watching.

Yes, MWO is that bad and that boring without roles. Just like CW is monotonous this tournament will put on full display the lack of flexibility in play this game has to offer.

If you can't see that then you been sucking on the Meta hookah way too long.

[Dino Might]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 December 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

The general gist of the role warfare argument seems to be:

- Players would rather have hard-locked, forced roles given to their mechs, rather than allowing personal play customization and preference to be the main deciding factor.

In other words, instead of players being able to customize a wider variety of mechs to support their chosen role for the team (what we have now), you'd rather have hard-locked roles for certain mechs.that instead forces the majority of players to not take entirely chassis at all.

So basically: Have PGI shove it down our throats like Infotech. Sounds like a fantastic idea!

I didn't get that from the discussion. I think it's that people want their choices to play a particular role actually have meaning and impact. If I want to be a spotter, there should be some impact I can have as a scout/spotter, and some specialty equipment to do that with. We have ECM, TAG, and NARC, but those are limited usefulness, especially without any LRM boats. There's not much benefit to spotting when the rest of the team has UAVs, and most mechs are doing 90 kph anyways. There's not much of a point scouting the other team on these maps, because everyone already knows all the good places to go, of which there might be one or two per side. So, yes, you can be a scout/spotter, but if you aren't putting out good damage while doing so, you are a waste of space on your team. Part of it is equipment, and most of it is map and game-mode design.

[YueFei]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 December 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

The general gist of the role warfare argument seems to be:

- Players would rather have hard-locked, forced roles given to their mechs, rather than allowing personal play customization and preference to be the main deciding factor.

In other words, instead of players being able to customize a wider variety of mechs to support their chosen role for the team (what we have now), you'd rather have hard-locked roles for certain mechs.that instead forces the majority of players to not take entirely chassis at all.

So basically: Have PGI shove it down our throats like Infotech. Sounds like a fantastic idea!

No, players have plenty of choices. Like flamers are a choice.

It's just that many choices aren't viable.

Be honest. If it wasn't for tonnage restrictions or weight class limits, what would your team composition look like?

Thought experiment: if the NFL featured a field that was only 30 feet wide instead of 160 feet, and the forward pass was made illegal.... what would the game look like? What would become the optimal personnel package for every single down and distance?

Fine, fine, you probably still have pulling blockers and crack-back blocks, misdirection, and concentration at the point of attack, but the sport suddenly becomes incredibly one-dimensional and dull to watch.

Edited by YueFei, 14 December 2015 - 11:10 PM.